murraycraven Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 So I state a different opinion and it's orange glasses for me? How many guys would honestly remove themselves from a game with other guys playing hurt? None. Hell, Lappy was celebrated here for it. As was Mike Richards and Kimo Timonen.And, the Flyers have plenty of PK guys.Talbot hated his role on the Flyers and definitely was mailing it in. I guess I'll keep my orange sunglasses, and you keep your revisionist history. There is no revisionist history Doom... I apologize for the glasses comment! Uncalled for... I still think you can look at the trade and say we lost out. Was Downie the absolute reason that we turned it around? IMO it is a resounding no... I think there were multiple factos aside from Downie. Since Downie's arrival he played well in a short time. He has been terrible or not... If he is hurt he should not be given the excuse IMO - he simply is not getting the job done. The Coaching staff seems to agree as well as he has been in and out of the lineup and then pushed to the 4th... I just dont think the Team is really benefiting with him in the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I still think you can look at the trade and say we lost out. Was Downie the absolute reason that we turned it around? IMO it is a resounding no... I think there were multiple factos aside from Downie. Since Downie's arrival he played well in a short time. He has been terrible or not... If he is hurt he should not be given the excuse IMO - he simply is not getting the job done. The Coaching staff seems to agree as well as he has been in and out of the lineup and then pushed to the 4th... I just dont think the Team is really benefiting with him in the lineup. I think a valid question is whether or not they would have traded for Downie if he hadn't been a former Flyer. I'm going out on a limb here: No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 @JackStraw@aziz The two lines were basically set as far as scoring was concerned. Yes, at the time, everybody had problem scoring goals, but that was a temporary problem. You had to anticipate that a team who has Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Simmonds, VLC, and B Schenn would eventually get out of scoring slump. And let’s be honest - it’s not like Homer traded for an established sniper who would suddenly or magically resolve that issue. If you throw out several outliers for each player involved, Downie’s and Talbot’s production is relatively similar, although I won’t argue that Downie is better offensively, even if not by a large margin. But again, one has to wonder how much scoring was really expected from the guy who was destined to play on the checking line anyway. And we are seeing now how it played out, are we not? Contractually, yes, I guess I sort of see the point. But if scoring was really that much of a perceived issue, a crafty GM could’ve found the way to put together a package that would bring a player who would actually help, which is the whole intent of any trade. All of whom Homer traded for. Throw in Mason and Couturier too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Greetings: The truth is probably in the middle. Initially he may have made a difference but now I really wonder. I'd give it no more than 50/50 we resign him. I put myself in the shoes of a coach and wonder what shows up at game time. I could see some team taking a flyer on him for a lot less than current rate if they wanted to add toughness. But in the main, I think he is probably not such a hot commodity. Peace, Howie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I think a valid question is whether or not they would have traded for Downie if he hadn't been a former Flyer. I'm going out on a limb here: No. I think you are right Rad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 There is no revisionist history Doom... I apologize for the glasses comment! Uncalled for...I still think you can look at the trade and say we lost out. Was Downie the absolute reason that we turned it around? IMO it is a resounding no... I think there were multiple factos aside from Downie. Since Downie's arrival he played well in a short time. He has been terrible or not... If he is hurt he should not be given the excuse IMO - he simply is not getting the job done. The Coaching staff seems to agree as well as he has been in and out of the lineup and then pushed to the 4th... I just dont think the Team is really benefiting with him in the lineup. Downie certainly isn't helping now, point blank. I'm not sure Talbot would either though. The only real win is Homer freeing up a contract and cap space for this summer.I still think that when Downie is on, he's better than Talbot's best. I see a different Downie on the ice now, and something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Downie certainly isn't helping now, point blank. I'm not sure Talbot would either though. The only real win is Homer freeing up a contract and cap space for this summer.I still think that when Downie is on, he's better than Talbot's best. I see a different Downie on the ice now, and something is wrong. Agreed.... Something is definitely wrong. Comparing Talbot to Downie was not what I was trying to do and rereading my posts I can see how that was assumed. When Downie is on his game I do think he is a better player than Talbot. Not sure if Downie is having injury isses, confidence issues or what. As you say there is clearly something wrong. The thing that I like about Downie (when playing well) is he is strong on the boards and he plays w/ hatred in his eyes. That has not been there recently... maybe it is PCS. If it is I would hope that he or the training staff would get him off the ice for health and safety concerns. I hope he finds his game... I really do b/c they are going to need him after the break. Maybe the Olympic break is going to be the rest that he needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Agreed.... Something is definitely wrong. Comparing Talbot to Downie was not what I was trying to do and rereading my posts I can see how that was assumed. When Downie is on his game I do think he is a better player than Talbot. Not sure if Downie is having injury isses, confidence issues or what. As you say there is clearly something wrong. The thing that I like about Downie (when playing well) is he is strong on the boards and he plays w/ hatred in his eyes. That has not been there recently... maybe it is PCS. If it is I would hope that he or the training staff would get him off the ice for health and safety concerns. I hope he finds his game... I really do b/c they are going to need him after the break. Maybe the Olympic break is going to be the rest that he needs. I can go with the Downie better than Talbot thing, but to a point. I think there's a question about the roles they play. Downie has really only been effective - points-wise - in a top 6 role (both in Tampa and Colorado). I wouldn't put Talbot into that position and don't believe the Avs have, either. (despite what the Yahoo! depth chart says). If I'm looking for a sandpapery, third line checking center who can take draws and play D, I think I lean towards Talbot over Downie. The way Homer constructed the Flyers after signing Talbot to a five year deal just didn't make sense. Colour me surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 All of whom Homer traded for. Throw in Mason and Couturier too. I apologize; I am missing your point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I just meant that the PK seems like the only aspect of the team that might actually benefit from him at this point. That and I'm just grumpy with how many crappy penalties they take. As good as the PK has been, good teams will always make you pay. the PK is doing pretty ok without him. in fact, the PK is a good micro of the reason talbot was shipped out. giroux, hall, couturier, read are a pretty solid penalty killing group. hall would be the one that talbot would replace, but it's pretty much one-for-one there, except hall is better on faceoffs. don't really want to make that swap, either. so, talbot isn't on either of the primary PK units. that being the case, what's the point? keeping a defensive/PK specialist around when you have a handful of better defensive/PK skaters...why? and again, add in grumble grumble that talbot wasn't going to see any time in the top 6 or on the PP, and why keep him around? he was an extra body good at stuff that others did better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Assuming Downie is not dealt at the deadline, I give it about a 1% chance he is resigned for next year.....and that is being nice. That 1% also assumes he is wiling to take veteran minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 That 1% also assumes he is wiling to take veteran minimum. Then I have to believe it also assumes that Holmgren is no longer GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 @ruxpin Never know, huh? This franchise does not take well to losing. He's already thrown his own hand picked coach under the bus. If we miss the playoffs again, the Teflon Don of GM's may have made his last horrid trade. I'd love to see a guy with an "actual plan"...and somebody who knows how to actually construct a team with the salary cap. Would be refreshing. I'd be ok with leaving him in charge of just the draft, but I don't see any potential GM's who would be willing to give up such an important aspect of the job. Maybe just keep him as a scout, I'd be ok with that. Let's face it, the guy probably has a job for life in the Flyers org ie Clarkie. We'll have to live with that, the no clean break part of the equation. Unless Snider dies or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I apologize; I am missing your point here. That all his trades aren't bad. A few posts back you said something to the effect of this trade being part for the course. While I don't hide my disdain for Downie, losing Talbot was not even a little bit of a blow. As someone else mentioned, Downie's salary also comes off the books. Add to that the good trades he has made and his trade record is not that bad at all. His weak point imo is salary and contract related stuff. He overpays and for far too long, though I suspect that's an the old man's encouragement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 20%,65%,first round, third round Interesting discussion but Downie still sucks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 It's a bit of a luxury looking back now, but signing Talbot to a 5 year contract was an INSANELY unwise move....wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 It's a bit of a luxury looking back now, but signing Talbot to a 5 year contract was an INSANELY unwise move....wow. You mean like signing Briere to a 7 year, or Pronger, or Bryz, or VLC, or Streit? And I didn't look back on any of them. It was insanity from the getgo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 @flyercanuck Well, at the time of the Talbot deal, it *seemed* like a decent cap hit anyways. The theory was, we were getting an excellent defensive 3rd line center who had shown a ton of compete in the playoffs....although we all thought the term was odd....and we all know how it turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 @jammer2 I wouldn't have minded signing any of the guys I mentioned if the term wasn't ridiculous. But it was. And that's why I didn't mind the Downie trade. The guy needed a buyout to get out of the Briere and Bryz deals, LTIR saved him from the Pronger deal, and he's traded his way out of Talbot, Richards and Carter. You'd think a lightbulb would go on in the guys head someday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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