Flyers Honoring Forsberg

[King Knut]

No, but yet may have been forced to build a team instead of "finding the missing piece". Which is what Quebec/ Colorado did.

They were the Penguins of the late 80'd early 90's in that they had so many top picks in a row: sakic, Nolan, Sundin, Lindros/ Forsberg. But by the time they were playing Foppa's and winning cups, they'd traded Nolan and Sundin. Who were good players! They were just not part of the team that they were thing to build.

If the Flyers played Forsberg and drafted high the next two seasons who knows what they look like.

Imagine if they still make the trade with Montreal?

Forsberg feeding LeClair? Would that have been less productive than Lindros doing it?

They might have had to have had more of a game plan than, "give it to Eric and see if he can score or else he'll just dish it to Johnny". Would that have been so bad?

I have a lot insay and a lot of affection for Lindros, but in hindsight, it was a bad trade.

If they kept Hextall, Ricci, Duschene and the two first rounders (and Huffman, Simon...), who knows?

They would never have gotten the "bump" that Lindros brought, though.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yeah, I would agree with that. 

 

The Avs did get Roy for a package that included Thibault (who was one of the 1st rounders).

 

It's always hard to judge the first rounders because some teams draft better and it's impossible to say that the Flyers would have picked the same guys. Do they take Thibault or an Adam Deadmarsh, for example?

 

Amusing to recall that the 1994 pick turned into "future Flyer" Nolan Baumgartner.

 

Forsberg is a great player. A HOFer. No doubt about it. And I know that his time away from the Avs doesn't offer the most in-depth look at how he played with not with other HOFers, but it's all we got. His presence did not elevate us or Nashville to levels we had not previously accomplished without him.

 

Lindros' did. The early 90s teams were awful and he made them a steady participant in the PO. He did more with less.

 

Aside from the championships (which are team accomplishments) their careers are so eerily similar it's fascinating. Forsberg's career ppg is 1.25, while Lindros' is 1.14. PO are even closer. Forsberg had a 1.13 ppg avg, while Lindros' was 1.10. Forsberg also played around 100 more PO game (which is another team stat). If Lindros was surrounded by better talent, he'd have the cups Forsberg did and possibly better numbers too. I think Forsberg was a better teammate though and arguably a classier (easier to work with) guy. 

[fanaticV3.0]

If Forsberg had been surrounded by Brindy, Recchi, Ricci, Dineen, Duchesne, Howe and Hextall plus the next two years of first rounders, who the hell knows what he would have done.

 

 

There's some really good players on that list, but not Sakic, Roy, and the supporting cast in COL > that Philly line up with Forsberg imo.

[Podein25]

I completely agree with you on context, which is my point about Lindros/Forsberg, but citing his career SV% isn't exactly unfair. He played most of in the 90s, so it's not like he got cheated out of good numbers due to the era he played in. This is not in-depth, but it's also not wrong: http://bleacherrepor...history/page/35. Absolutely great early on, and for a very short period of time, but average for most of his career. I loved the guy as a kid like everyone else, but he's been overrated by the Flyers faithful for years.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I think a lot of Flyer fans (and some non-Flyer fans probably) value Hextall's other, err, "qualities" as much as they do his ability to stop the puck. I know when I was going to see the Flyers play back then (which was only when they came to Winnipeg or Edmonton/Calgary) I went early just to see Hextall rifling pucks off the crossbar in warm ups. A sight to behold. 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

@radoran

 

A little late to the party here, but I agree with you that while Forsberg is a HOF worthy player, his inclusion in an honorary thing with the Flyers does seem somewhat contrived.

 

Before I read this thread, I was watching the replay of the TB-Phi game, saw the Forsberg thing going on, looked him up, and saw that of his 880+ games only 100 came as a Flyer as you pointed out, and immediately found that to be a bit suspect.

 

I can see if Forsberg did some monumental thing for the organization (such as saved them from contraction somehow, led them on a magical playoff run, etc), but he was an "ok" player for them, an injured one at that, then traded during his second year with the team.

 

Not to take away from Forsberg (guy was a MORE than a point per game player for his career among other accolades...can't fake that stuff), nor to take away from the generous gesture by the Flyers, but still, it did seem odd to me as well.

 

On that vein, perhaps I can look forward to the Lightning honoring Karl Dykhuis and Michael Renberg....hey, they damned good Flyers (well, Renberg was anyways) and the Bolts SHOULD recognize their amazing ability to have been able to put on a Lightning sweater... 

 

And we can have the great Matthew Barnaby (another great who wore the Bolts sweater) drop the ceremonial puck, sing the national anthems, AND call the ensuing game.... 

[King Knut]

I guess part of my point is that Forsberg's supporting Cast might not have been there if my for the Lindros trade.

Not saying that Col<Flyers if no Lindros Trade. Just saying that the Flyers don't get lot worse without the trade.

No reason to think Foppa's would suck with Rex/ LeClair / Rico & not Sakic.

There's some really good players on that list, but not Sakic, Roy, and the supporting cast in COL > that Philly line up with Forsberg imo.

[fanaticV3.0]

Fair enough.

 

I think a lot of Flyer fans (and some non-Flyer fans probably) value Hextall's other, err, "qualities" as much as they do his ability to stop the puck. I know when I was going to see the Flyers play back then (which was only when they came to Winnipeg or Edmonton/Calgary) I went early just to see Hextall rifling pucks off the crossbar in warm ups. A sight to behold. 

 

Oh, I think that's exactly why he's as popular as he is. His puck-handling abilities and physicality are why he's loved.

[fanaticV3.0]

I guess part of my point is that Forsberg's supporting Cast might not have been there if my for the Lindros trade.

Not saying that Col<Flyers if no Lindros Trade. Just saying that the Flyers don't get lot worse without the trade.

No reason to think Foppa's would suck with Rex/ LeClair / Rico & not Sakic.

 

 

The Lindros trade had had very little to do with Sakic and Roy. Sakic and Roy are what I'm talking about. If they didn't already have those two, Forsberg does not win a cup with Hextall, Ricci, Duchesne, and Simon. I think Colorado threw one of our picks Montreals direction, but that didn't happen because it was our pick.

 

Not saying he would suck. I'm saying, like Lindros, he wouldn't have a cup if he played on the teams Lindros played here and arguably Lindros did more for us than PF would have.

[brelic]

The Lindros trade had had very little to do with Sakic and Roy. Sakic and Roy are what I'm talking about. If they didn't already have those two, Forsberg does not win a cup with Hextall, Ricci, Duchesne, and Simon. I think Colorado threw one of our picks Montreals direction, but that didn't happen because it was our pick.

 

Not saying he would suck. I'm saying, like Lindros, he wouldn't have a cup if he played on the teams Lindros played here and arguably Lindros did more for us than PF would have.

 

What about the Rangers? Do they get their cup in 1994 if they make the Lindros trade?

 

The trade between the Nordiques and the Rangers that was ruled invalid by the arbitrator had Lindros being traded for Doug Weight, Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, John Vanbiesbrouck, three first round draft picks (1993, 1994 & 1995) and $12 million.

 

 

 

Crazy enough, the only player in that list that was actually still part of the Rangers the year following the botched Lindros trade (when they won the Cup) was Kovalev. 

[Podein25]

His puck-handling abilities and physicality are why he's loved.

 

 

Plus he was ultra-competitive, hated to lose. That's a form of leadership. 

[King Knut]

Sorry we keep missing points. I'm not comparing the nordiques to the flyers except to say that there were a few good mentors on the flyers at that time that wouldn't have been bad influences on Foppa.

I'm also not saying Forsberg would have a cup if he'd played for the team's Lindros played with.

I'm saying those teams wouldn't have been much worse for having Forsberg instead of lindros. Add in Ricci, Hextall and two draft picks and things get even rosier.

I'm also hinting at the possibility that without The mantle/albatross of Lindros and having two additional first round picks (that were acceptably high since we missed the playoffs two years in a row) that the Flyers may have actually been able to build a team the way the Avalanche did because it wasn't Just Forsberg or Sakic or Roy, it was a full team and in fact the Nords/Lanche traded away from talented players and high draft picks (as you mentioned) in order to build that team that won several cups and was a cup threat for a decade.

I don't think we disagree.

I think the same teams with Forsberg instead of Lindros have similar results.

Part of my thesis is that the flyers seemed to just keep trying to find the one piece that completed the Lindros puzzle instead of looking At the whole team.

Maybe with Forsberg they don't do that because although he was good, there was never an expectation that he could single handedly lead any team to a dynasty (except perhaps 14 years later when he was near retirement).

So What I'm curious to have seen is what teams the flyers could have become instead. I don't think it would be the same. I don't think we'd have seen Chris Grattons or any other countless unskilled "big guys".

And honestly, if the flyers weren't such one trick ponies from '95-'00 we might have seen a cup or two.

The Lindros trade had had very little to do with Sakic and Roy. Sakic and Roy are what I'm talking about. If they didn't already have those two, Forsberg does not win a cup with Hextall, Ricci, Duchesne, and Simon. I think Colorado threw one of our picks Montreals direction, but that didn't happen because it was our pick.

Not saying he would suck. I'm saying, like Lindros, he wouldn't have a cup if he played on the teams Lindros played here and arguably Lindros did more for us than PF would have.

[fanaticV3.0]

What about the Rangers? Do they get their cup in 1994 if they make the Lindros trade?

 

 

 

Crazy enough, the only player in that list that was actually still part of the Rangers the year following the botched Lindros trade (when they won the Cup) was Kovalev. 

 

I dunno. I don't know what their roster looks like if they ended up with him. There's trades they probably made as a result of not getting him, so they could have missed out on guys they later got had they ended up with him. I don't know what they did off the top of my head in the years following their attempt to get him.

 

I just don't know about Lindros' leadership in general. He definitely brought the franchise back from the grave, but never won the big one. I know that's not all on him, but it still never happened. A part of me thinks if he had the benefit of Messier the way Forsberg did Sakic, he'd had won a cup. Another part of me isn't sure if he even plays on a team with another guy of that caliber.

[King Knut]

Because we're Philly Phans and we have little better to do.  We don't really now how to react to something without bitching and whining.

 

They're doing something nice for a nice guy who it should have worked out better for here (but didn't) who happens to be a hockey legend.

What's wrong with that?

 

I don't know.  I can't figure it out.  How does it cause problems for anyone?  I don't know, but it appears to be an affront to many here.

Oh well.

 

What's there to get worked up about?

[radoran]

They're doing something nice for a nice guy who it should have worked out better for here (but didn't) who happens to be a hockey legend.

What's wrong with that?

I don't know. I can't figure it out. How does it cause problems for anyone? I don't know, but it appears to be an affront to many here.

 

I just said "as a Flyer" I don't have anything to "honor" him for.

 

Still don't.

 

"As a player" he is an all time great, Hall of Famer.

 

They didn't do a "Paul Coffey Night" (94 games, Stanley Cup Final, Hall of Famer) or for that matter a "Dale Hawerchuk Night" (67 games, Stanley Cup Final, Hall of Famer) or for that matter an "Adam Oates Night" (Hall of Famer) - and they are reputedly nice guys who it "could have" worked out better for here, but didn't.

 

I'm not "affronted" - I didn't pay to go to the game or anything. I just don't think he did anything "as a Flyer" to warrant this recognition.

 

IMO, his biggest feet feat in Philadelphia didn't fit into his boots was getting traded for Lindros.

[brelic]

I just don't think he did anything "as a Flyer" to warrant this recognition.

 

I guess when you run a multi-billion dollar corporation, you'll get to make those kinds of decisions

[radoran]

I guess when you run a multi-billion dollar corporation, you'll get to make those kinds of decisions

 

And apparently have such obvious buyer's remorse that you're practically spitting on the past 20 years of your own franchise...

[jammer2]

I just said "as a Flyer" I don't have anything to "honor" him for.

 

Still don't.

 

"As a player" he is an all time great, Hall of Famer.

 

They didn't do a "Paul Coffey Night" (94 games, Stanley Cup Final, Hall of Famer) or for that matter a "Dale Hawerchuk Night" (67 games, Stanley Cup Final, Hall of Famer) or for that matter an "Adam Oates Night" (Hall of Famer) - and they are reputedly nice guys who it "could have" worked out better for here, but didn't.

 

I'm not "affronted" - I didn't pay to go to the game or anything. I just don't think he did anything "as a Flyer" to warrant this recognition.

 

IMO, his biggest feet feat in Philadelphia didn't fit into his boots was getting traded for Lindros.

 

 Great post rad. I really like the Coffey and Hawerchuck references. To be 100% honest though, those players were not impactful like Peter was when he got here. That line with Gags was something special, before the Footpa stuff took hold. Still believe in your line of thinking though.

[ruxpin]

Great post rad. I really like the Coffey and Hawerchuck references. To be 100% honest though, those players were not impactful like Peter was when he got here. That line with Gags was something special, before the Footpa stuff took hold. Still believe in your line of thinking though.

I, myself, remember those 10 games quite fondly.

[jammer2]

I, myself, remember those 10 games quite fondly.

 

 It was actually about 25-30....but close enough!

[FD19372]

You think Forsberg night was a great idea, wait until Al Davis wants to have a Vincent Lecavalier or RJ Umberger night. The first 1000 to bring in an oilcan to the game in honor of those stiffs gets a bobblehead.     Forsberg at least tried to play hard as a Flyer, and produced when healthy.

[fanaticV3.0]

Because we're Philly Phans and we have little better to do.  We don't really now how to react to something without bitching and whining.

 

They're doing something nice for a nice guy who it should have worked out better for here (but didn't) who happens to be a hockey legend.

What's wrong with that?

 

I don't know.  I can't figure it out.  How does it cause problems for anyone?  I don't know, but it appears to be an affront to many here.

 

 What a load of BS. I ain't seen that much sh-t since Biff Tannen crashed into the manure truck. This organ-I-zations constant and unnecessary celebrations were old year ago and this is the worst of them all.

[flyercanuck]

@FD19372

 

Also brought us Timonen and Hartnell in a roundabout way. Of course Hartnell brought us Umberger so that cancels out the positive Kimmo brought. 

[King Knut]

I have no idea if you're serious or not. Well done!

What a load of BS. I ain't seen that much sh-t since Biff Tannen crashed into the manure truck. This organ-I-zations constant and unnecessary celebrations were old year ago and this is the worst of them all.

[fanaticV3.0]

I have no idea if you're serious or not. Well done!

 

 

I am serious. I'm having fun, but I'm serious. My point is the guy did nothing special here. Hell, he wasn't here long enough to do anything special. Frankly, there's nothing to honor.

[radoran]

I, myself, remember those 10 games quite fondly.

 

See, this is it exactly.

 

He played 60 games in Y1 (75 points) and 40 games in Y2 (40 points).

 

It was like having a fancy dancy Saab that is great when you drive it, but spends so much time in the shop it's a headache.

 

Once you sell it, you're happy you got Scottie Upshall, Ryan Parent and the rights to Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell for it.