Re-Signing Voracek

[jammer2]

  Can we draw a co-relation between this Tarasenko contract and resigning Voracek?  Tarasenko is 23, Voracheck is about to turn 26 in August. They are both now close to point per game players, in a league that does not seem able to support even 90 pt players anymore. I propose that pt per game players are the same as 90-100 point players just a few years ago. Vorachek has a MUCH more talented supporting cast, even if you only count Giroux. He also is physical and plays a much better all round game than Tarasenko. Vorachek came around much later than Tarasenko pts wise, nothing wrong with that, but they had different development curves. Just some stuff to thing about going forward. It's rare when a player 3 years younger can set the bar for a guy like Vorachek...but in the end, they were both in and around the pt per game mark, and both have considereable upside left to play out. Myself, I think Voarcheck should get more, but not much more than the kid did.

 

 EDIT...I patiently await rads stellar historical perspective on this topic....

[radoran]

If voracek gets more, IMO it should be for shorter term

If he wants to sign through 34, I think $6.5-7M isn't a terrible number.

Let's recall that there have been "issues" with jake and his mom's pierogies...

[jammer2]

@radoran  That is right about where I fall, 8 mill (maybe plus) for a short term, 7 millish for a longer term. When is the next CBA due, that is something to keep in mind here, since the league has a sudden problem with grandfathering things in. I feel a lot safer with Hexy at the controls here, he will at least weigh all options.

 

 One thing I have been bouncing around in my mind....it is possible the league could try and mandate a franchise tag, one which is below league average for star players. The league already knows it can starve out the fans and players, so this would be a deal breaker....at first...but they know the owners can withstand any storm financially...AND the fans will come back regardless....SO, this opens the door to some real sneaky stuff. What better way to protect the cap then have a designation that prevents the superstars from earning what they are really worth?

[radoran]

@radoran  That is right about where I fall, 8 mill (maybe plus) for a short term, 7 millish for a longer term. When is the next CBA due, that is something to keep in mind here, since the league has a sudden problem with grandfathering things in. I feel a lot safer with Hexy at the controls here, he will at least weigh all options.

 

 One thing I have been bouncing around in my mind....it is possible the league could try and mandate a franchise tag, one which is below league average for star players. The league already knows it can starve out the fans and players, so this would be a deal breaker....at first...but they know the owners can withstand any storm financially...AND the fans will come back regardless....SO, this opens the door to some real sneaky stuff. What better way to protect the cap then have a designation that prevents the superstars from earning what they are really worth?

A LOT of it will have to do with what Voracek does this year.

Right now, he's had one great season on Giroux's wing and still hasn't scored 25, much less 30.

I don't know that I give that guy $8M. And I'm not sure the league can afford to give guys who haven't scored 25 goals $8M.

Tarasenko potted THIRTY SEVEN last season. Jake has all of EIGHT more goals in the past two years COMBINED.

[jammer2]

A LOT of it will have to do with what Voracek does this year.

Right now, he's had one great season on Giroux's wing and still hasn't scored 25, much less 30.

I don't know that I give that guy $8M. And I'm not sure the league can afford to give guys who haven't scored 25 goals $8M.

Tarasenko potted THIRTY SEVEN last season. Jake has all of EIGHT more goals in the past two years COMBINED.

 

 That was one of the other things I was pondering. How much of Jake's production is tied to Giroux? If some or even a great deal of those pts are tied to Claude, does he still deserve the kind of money we are talking about. If we don't sign him, he leaves as a FA or is traded as a rental.

[radoran]

That was one of the other things I was pondering. How much of Jake's production is tied to Giroux? If some or even a great deal of those pts are tied to Claude, does he still deserve the kind of money we are talking about.

 

The vast majority of those points are tied to Claude - with half his goals and 37% of his assists on the PP.

 

My primary concern is that - even with Giroux's 25 goals - the pair combined for 47 goals and more than half were on the PP. Chicago got 55 from Toews and Kane with 12 on the PP (and Kane playing just 61 games). Pittsburgh had 53 from Crosby and Hornqvist (16 PP). Pacioretti and Plekanec had 63 (14 PP). Hell, Stamkos had four less than Voracek/Giroux by himself (13 PP).

 

I like Voracek a lot - and have since he was drafted. I was and am happy that he's on the Flyers. I just don't see him as an $8M player - AT ALL.

 

If he steps his game up and scores at or around 30 we can certainly revisit this. Quite frankly, I'd pick Simmonds at $4M 9 times out of 10 before Voracek. (I'm still gobsmacked that Simmer signed that deal for that term - he's on for three more seasons after this one at less than $4M. That deal and Jake's bridge were two of the best contracts #homercoaster signed.)

 

If we don't sign him, he leaves as a FA or is traded as a rental.

 

I think Hextall is going to have a serious conversation about what the player wants and whether or not that fits in with what the Flyers see as his production going forward. If he's going to demand $8M and hold firm to that, it wouldn't surprise me to see him dealt (especially if the Flyers are on the outside looking in at the playoffs).

 

I'd pencil him in at $6.5M and wouldn't be getting out the eraser too quickly.

[Podein25]

@radoran

@jammer2

 

Yeah, for $8M Jake has to become more of a goal scorer. I love him, but he's still basically a passer. His shot is only ok in terms of both accuracy and speed. He gets chances that $8M players should be expected to put away. Until he does, he's not worth that.

[Poulin20]

Trade him now!!!! His value will never be higher  .

[jammer2]

@radoran Giroux himself has always had trouble scoring at even strength, so the fact his line is only really producing good numbers on the pp is not surprising. I wonder if Hakstoll can fix this problem going forward. I'm pretty sure it's near the top of his list of things to do.

[radoran]

@radoran Giroux himself has always had trouble scoring at even strength, so the fact his line is only really producing good numbers on the pp is not surprising. I wonder if Hakstoll can fix this problem going forward. I'm pretty sure it's near the top of his list of things to do.

 

At least we've come a long way from when "fixing the PP" was going to be the easiest thing for Hitchcock...

 

My issue is that the teams that they are going to have to surpass to get into the playoffs and "make some noise" don't have that problem and teams that rely heavily on PP success rarely see playoff wins.

 

Locking up $16+M in a top line that has that as their hallmark doesn't make me warm and fuzzy.

[jammer2]

My issue is that the teams that they are going to have to surpass to get into the playoffs and "make some noise" don't have that problem and teams that rely heavily on PP success rarely see playoff wins.

 

That is SO true rad, and really, some tough decisions going forward have to be made. Was it a "system" or "coaching" problem...or is it just that G and V are not the types to produce at even strength? I think any fan or member of management knows that you MUST score at even strength with consistency to achieve the ultimate goal. You simply cannot rely on the pp to fix things and keep you in games, especially in the playoffs when things are called much tighter and pp's are not as frequent. If Hexy is indeed going to move forward with this crew (ie top 2 or 3 scorers), he must be convinced that things will turn around at even strength. If not, some tough calls have to be made AND it will require MUCH more of a rebuild then we first thought.

 

 Just cause G and V produce a lot of pts does not mean they are the best duo for the team moving forward. I don't know how the points would be replaced from those two guys, presumably coming back in a trade scenario....I dunno. The problem is this....Jake will request a no movement clause in any new deal, so the decision would have to be made very soon to move on from him.  Really, the whole thing is an iffy proposition, and as we know, where there is an "if" with the Flyers, it more than often comes true.

[radoran]

That is SO true rad, and really, some tough decisions going forward have to be made. Was it a "system" or "coaching" problem...or is it just that G and V are not the types to produce at even strength? I think any fan or member of management knows that you MUST score at even strength with consistency to achieve the ultimate goal. You simply cannot rely on the pp to fix things and keep you in games, especially in the playoffs when things are called much tighter and pp's are not as frequent. If Hexy is indeed going to move forward with this crew (ie top 2 or 3 scorers), he must be convinced that things will turn around at even strength. If not, some tough calls have to be made AND it will require MUCH more of a rebuild then we first thought.

 

 Just cause G and V produce a lot of pts does not mean they are the best duo for the team moving forward. I don't know how the points would be replaced from those two guys, presumably coming back in a trade scenario....I dunno. The problem is this....Jake will request a no movement clause in any new deal, so the decision would have to be made very soon to move on from him.  Really, the whole thing is an iffy proposition, and as we know, where there is an "if" with the Flyers, it more than often comes true.

 

The issue I have with NMCs is that they should be paired with a LOWER overall salary - because you're getting the "security" of the NMC. Instead, it turns into "I want the most money possible AND I DEMAND a NMC." That's just insane.

 

It was worse when #homercoaster would START his "negotiations" with "max money + NMC." Ilya Bryzgalov says "hello."

 

I really don't want this team to commit two $8M salaries to two 20-25 goal scorers who get half their goals on the power play.

 

I'm hoping that the players in question really get their game going next season. Otherwise, I'd rather go in for much more of a rebuild than commit to 6-8 years of Canuckery.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

My own personal feeling is that if the Flyers are out of the playoffs by February of 2016, then it's time to auction off Voracek to the highest bidder. The bounty could be huge and if it means a top line left winger and moving Simmonds to the top side right spot, then I'd be all for it. I'm sure there are 29 teams in the NHL that would want to get in on the Voracek bidding if that were the case and I could see Hextall walking away with a gold mine. 

[Claude Monet]

My own personal feeling is that if the Flyers are out of the playoffs by February of 2016, then it's time to auction off Voracek to the highest bidder. The bounty could be huge and if it means a top line left winger and moving Simmonds to the top side right spot, then I'd be all for it. I'm sure there are 29 teams in the NHL that would want to get in on the Voracek bidding if that were the case and I could see Hextall walking away with a gold mine.

Pavel Brendl was the huge prospect in the Lindros trade. I hear what you are saying , ESP with a salary cap, but jake has really blossomed here.... Even under Burube. I just don't want to see him go.

[The Quigster]

Neither Voracek or Giroux are game changing players.I personally think they will have a problem conforming to Hack's/Keenan's system. The Flyers already have enough enough money problems,Vinny,MacTurd,etc.. Superstar money should be for superstars,not Jake and "G". Wayne Simmonds is a great example of hard working player who deserves what he makes. The Flyers need some big(6'/200lbs.minimum),confident forwards,along the lines of LA and the Hawks. Jake and "G" would be super trade bait,along with saving a lot of money.

[Claude Monet]

Neither Voracek or Giroux are game changing players.I personally think they will have a problem conforming to Hack's/Keenan's system. The Flyers already have enough enough money problems,Vinny,MacTurd,etc.. Superstar money should be for superstars,not Jake and "G". Wayne Simmonds is a great example of hard working player who deserves what he makes. The Flyers need some big(6'/200lbs.minimum),confident forwards,along the lines of LA and the Hawks. Jake and "G" would be super trade bait,along with saving a lot of money.

So 2 players that were in the running for the art Ross are not game changers but are "super trade bait" yet not worth their paycheck?

TROLL

[flyercanuck]

Neither Voracek or Giroux are game changing players.I personally think they will have a problem conforming to Hack's/Keenan's system. The Flyers already have enough enough money problems,Vinny,MacTurd,etc.. Superstar money should be for superstars,not Jake and "G". Wayne Simmonds is a great example of hard working player who deserves what he makes. The Flyers need some big(6'/200lbs.minimum),confident forwards,along the lines of LA and the Hawks. Jake and "G" would be super trade bait,along with saving a lot of money.

 

Giroux has more points than ANY player in the entire NHL over the last 4 or 5 years. Voracek is just becoming a great player.

 

Oh look, there's something shiny across the street! Typical Philly fan.

 

We need big players? 6' 200 lbs? Jake is 6'2" 215 lbs.

 

LA had as many playoff games as we did last year.

 

Jake and G are the kinds of players every team in the league would want....let's trade them away so we can save the money Homer blew on players you don't want. That'll build a winner.

 

Philly needs defence, and more scoring. The D is on it's way. Trading those two won't improve scoring.

[OccamsRazor]

Neither Voracek or Giroux are game changing players.I personally think they will have a problem conforming to Hack's/Keenan's system. The Flyers already have enough enough money problems,Vinny,MacTurd,etc.. Superstar money should be for superstars,not Jake and "G". Wayne Simmonds is a great example of hard working player who deserves what he makes. The Flyers need some big(6'/200lbs.minimum),confident forwards,along the lines of LA and the Hawks. Jake and "G" would be super trade bait,along with saving a lot of money.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Giroux has more points than ANY player in the entire NHL over the last 4 or 5 years. Voracek is just becoming a great player.

 

Oh look, there's something shiny across the street! Typical Philly fan.

 

We need big players? 6' 200 lbs? Jake is 6'2" 215 lbs.

 

LA had as many playoff games as we did last year.

 

Jake and G are the kinds of players every team in the league would want....let's trade them away so we can save the money Homer blew on players you don't want. That'll build a winner.

 

Philly needs defence, and more scoring. The D is on it's way. Trading those two won't improve scoring.

 

 

[murraycraven]

[radoran]

Troll or not - and he is a troll just for the record - Voracek is not an $8M player at this point.

 

I said it earlier, but I don't want them to wrap up $16+M in cap space on two guys who are power play specialists and have never scored 30 (or in Jake's case 25). The competition the Flyers face makes that a difficult hill to climb. The Pens (53 - Hornqvist missed 18 games and scored 25), Isles (56), Rags (61), Caps (71) - even the Blue Jackets (57) - had more goal scoring power in their top pair than Jake & G showed last year (47). Four of them made the playoffs and none of them were as PP reliant. Add Montreal (63) and Tampa (72) and the road to winning the Stanley Cup gets even tougher.

 

Slot Jake in at $6-$6.5M and you're in line with what he deserves and leaves additional space to fill the other side of the line.

 

And there's no reason to rush that - unless Jake would sign for it now. If Jake blossoms under Hakstol and they light it up at even strength - and I hope they do - the discussion obviously changes. But there's a lot of hockey between now and next March.

[RJ8812]

Giroux...not a game changer....

 

bahahahahahahahahaha

[OccamsRazor]

Troll or not - and he is a troll just for the record - Voracek is not an $8M player at this point.

 

I said it earlier, but I don't want them to wrap up $16+M in cap space on two guys who are power play specialists and have never scored 30 (or in Jake's case 25). The competition the Flyers face makes that a difficult hill to climb. The Pens (53 - Hornqvist missed 18 games and scored 25), Isles (56), Rags (61), Caps (71) - even the Blue Jackets (57) - had more goal scoring power in their top pair than Jake & G showed last year (47). Four of them made the playoffs and none of them were as PP reliant. Add Montreal (63) and Tampa (72) and the road to winning the Stanley Cup gets even tougher.

 

Slot Jake in at $6-$6.5M and you're in line with what he deserves and leaves additional space to fill the other side of the line.

 

And there's no reason to rush that - unless Jake would sign for it now. If Jake blossoms under Hakstol and they light it up at even strength - and I hope they do - the discussion obviously changes. But there's a lot of hockey between now and next March.

 

 

Well one thing's for certain there is no reason to Zac Rinaldo this..eerrrr i mean sign him so quick let's see how the season progresses and how he fits in Hak's system...it may help some to find a LW for the season...but i would listen to offers for anyone on the current roster...depending on what he'd fetch is what determine to pull the trigger on a trade....but G would be pissed with this i know...but he'd have to deal with it.

 

And for reason you pointed out is why i would be hesitant to give him 8 mill just yet....

[The Quigster]

While I've got your attention,why aren't more you of supporters of this site ?  

[murraycraven]

Troll or not - and he is a troll just for the record - Voracek is not an $8M player at this point.

 

I said it earlier, but I don't want them to wrap up $16+M in cap space on two guys who are power play specialists and have never scored 30 (or in Jake's case 25). The competition the Flyers face makes that a difficult hill to climb. The Pens (53 - Hornqvist missed 18 games and scored 25), Isles (56), Rags (61), Caps (71) - even the Blue Jackets (57) - had more goal scoring power in their top pair than Jake & G showed last year (47). Four of them made the playoffs and none of them were as PP reliant. Add Montreal (63) and Tampa (72) and the road to winning the Stanley Cup gets even tougher.

 

Slot Jake in at $6-$6.5M and you're in line with what he deserves and leaves additional space to fill the other side of the line.

 

And there's no reason to rush that - unless Jake would sign for it now. If Jake blossoms under Hakstol and they light it up at even strength - and I hope they do - the discussion obviously changes. But there's a lot of hockey between now and next March.

 

 

Could not agree more rad... great post.