Couturier is done for the Series

[aziz]

Just now, Podein25 said:

 

Yeah, it looks more like that than anything. 

 

that was me MC was quoting.

[Podein25]

Just now, aziz said:

that was me MC was quoting.

 

It's a good point then. We agree.

[murraycraven]

Sorry @hf101 but you are playing what-if scenarios and Ovie made a textbook hit and then couts fell.  He made the right play and took a hit to do so... if you think that is shying away from being physical or being passive we will never agree on hockey.   It was a good play with an unfortunate outcome.  I am sure the Team will be much better off without Couts for the rest of the series.  

[canoli]

1 hour ago, aziz said:

i don't think the guy lacks heart or desire, but he is not a super-get-engaged player.  there's a lot of stick checking and skate-bys on loose pucks.  it keeps him in good position and free from overcommiting, i guess, but his literal impact is less than it could be.

 

I'm not sure what you're complaint is here. You want more body checks in open ice? Because that's the only place he doesn't throw his body around...like 95% of NHL players.

 

I'm sure you don't believe stick-checking is by definition inferior to body-checking; it all depends on the play right?

 

re: "skate-bys on loose pucks" If that was his M.O. I would've noticed it by now. But maybe one man's "skate-by" is another man's correct positional choice. In any case I doubt any of Couturier's coaches accused him of not using his body. He's not Milan Lucic (thank god) but he's no Nedved or Semin either.

 

I agree he could - he should - exert his will more with the puck. He's big and strong enough to become a legit power forward and he was making good progress before he got hurt. It's a shame he missed those 20 games; it reinforced his detractor's claim, namely "WYSIWYG."  I've let go of the 70-pt fantasy but imo Couturier is far from WYSIWYG.

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

2 minutes ago, canoli said:

He's big and strong enough to

 

 

great post canoli....

 

about being strong enough b/c I thought I read he has a weak core and lacks the leg strength to be good? 

 

(sorry, I could not resist)

[flyer4ever]

canoli, why don't you go ask your Ma if you can stay up late and watch the big boy hockey in California. Then you will know the state of our Flyers.They are all trying, but it is not enough. And ask her to make us all a sangwidge. The current Flyers are not competitive in this tournament. They might as well have some fun and put a little hurt on the Caps. 3 more games like last night favors the Caps, not the Flyers. 

[hf101]

14 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Sorry @hf101 but you are playing what-if scenarios and Ovie made a textbook hit and then couts fell.  He made the right play and took a hit to do so... if you think that is shying away from being physical or being passive we will never agree on hockey.   It was a good play with an unfortunate outcome.  I am sure the Team will be much better off without Couts for the rest of the series.  

 

Ah, you totally missed the entire point of this thread and that was that we don't have anyone to replace Couturier.

[canoli]

wow this topic took a quick ugly detour...and now this corny post from @flyer4ever.

 

well anyway Couturier is out of the series so we can all go back to wondering why the guy who has more points than anyone in the NHL since...since...3pm on Tuesday before Labor Day in the first Leap Year of the 21st Century (I believe that is the correct time frame)... why he sucks so much and why Ovechkin, who's 2nd sucks even more.

[FD19372]

   Could Couturier have braced for the hit and protected himself more? Yes. However, I don't fault him for trying to make a play. Ovechkin is 6' 3" 239 lbs. of muscle going full boar into you.  Sometimes, even when you are ready for a hit like that, the way a player hits you can be injurious. Ovechkin plays the game at 60 mph as well. You have less time to react when you see him coming than most other players. The fact is, many of us are talking about how much Coots has to fill out and get stronger and become a better player...but he is still one of the premier shutdown centers in the league.  

    No matter what happens in this series...it's a success. The Flyers had little quality depth on the team, and outside of Mason, Coots was probably the player we could least afford to lose. I would say he is even more important than G in this series.  Hopefully, the players use this as a learning experience and when the team is in Washington's position of running away with the President's Trophy next season, the players will know how to handle having a target on their back. Hextall WILL go all out to win the Cup next season in dedication to Ed Snider, and will have more ability to do so. Have no doubts, this team will be at the top of the standings and make a SERIOUS Cup run in 2016-17.

[aziz]

9 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

well, if you look at the entire post I would say that you were out of order to be frank.  I believe the played hockey thing was out of frustration b/c if you played hockey or coached hockey you would know that Couts made the best play available there and he was not "floating."

 

 

no, he was not floating on that play.  

 

i've played hockey.  quite a lot of it, even.  regardless of whether the comment applied to me or not, saying posters should "shut it" if they don't meet some level of qualification is crap.  if the poster really doesn't understand something, explain it to them.  if they are just being obstinate, tell them that, too.  if the entirety of their failing is not having the same opinion about a given player, though, maybe disgusted dismissals aren't really appropriate.

 

see, the thing is, i think couturier is a really interesting topic.  the kid has a ton of gifts, and a ton of flaws.  some of those flaws are..natural, for lack of a better word.  his skating is what it is, and will always be.  more or less.  he'll just have to work around and through that.  the consistency of his puck pressure, on the other hand, is a behavioral thing.  one i think needs a lot of work, and one that directly impacts the kind of effect he can have on a game.  where can i discuss that?  podein will do what he can to shut down any back and forth on the topic.  comments by people that haven't played are pointed out as baseless.  comments by people that have played are just stupid.  in fact, with your assistance, simply starting a topic on the subject is nothing more than sh|t-stirring and unserious.    when it comes to couturier, if it doesn't fit in the echo-chamber, it can't be allowed to continue.  and that's too bad.  because he really is an interesting player and situation, certainly one that isn't as cut and dry and straightforward and entirely positive (aside from skating) as some people are insisting.

[FD19372]

13 minutes ago, aziz said:

 

 

no, he was not floating on that play.  

 

i've played hockey.  quite a lot of it, even.  regardless of whether the comment applied to me or not, saying posters should "shut it" if they don't meet some level of qualification is crap.  if the poster really doesn't understand something, explain it to them.  if they are just being obstinate, tell them that, too.  if the entirety of their failing is not having the same opinion about a given player, though, maybe disgusted dismissals aren't really appropriate.

 

see, the thing is, i think couturier is a really interesting topic.  the kid has a ton of gifts, and a ton of flaws.  some of those flaws are..natural, for lack of a better word.  his skating is what it is, and will always be.  more or less.  he'll just have to work around and through that.  the consistency of his puck pressure, on the other hand, is a behavioral thing.  one i think needs a lot of work, and one that directly impacts the kind of effect he can have on a game.  where can i discuss that?  podein will do what he can to shut down any back and forth on the topic.  comments by people that haven't played are pointed out as baseless.  comments by people that have played are just stupid.  in fact, with your assistance, simply starting a topic on the subject is nothing more than sh|t-stirring and unserious.    when it comes to couturier, if it doesn't fit in the echo-chamber, it can't be allowed to continue.  and that's too bad.  because he really is an interesting player and situation, certainly one that isn't as cut and dry and straightforward and entirely positive (aside from skating) as some people are insisting.

Oh...and Couturier is only 23, not a 30 year-old player who has played the game at this high a speed and against that great a player for 10 seasons.

[Podein25]

17 minutes ago, aziz said:

 some of those flaws are..natural, for lack of a better word.  his skating is what it is, and will always be.  more or less.  he'll just have to work around and through that.

 

18 minutes ago, aziz said:

the consistency of his puck pressure, on the other hand, is a behavioral thing.

 

You have it exactly backwards.

 

His skating is what he desperately needs to be working on, because he can improve it. On the other hand, what you call "the consistency of his puck pressure," which I take to mean his positioning (or IQ) is actually his gift. His understanding of that part of the game is instinctive and natural. He's clearly had it since he was very little. He is mature beyond his years at that, which is why he was plus +120 or something in Junior.

 

Yeah, you got it completely backwards.

[aziz]

5 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Oh...and Couturier is only 23, not a 30 year-old player who has played the game at this high a speed and against that great a player for 10 seasons.

 

nope, just 5 years.  and i hope he can improve his game as he gains experience.  there are things that need to improve.  i don't think any of this is controversial. except apparently it is.

[murraycraven]

32 minutes ago, hf101 said:

 

Ah, you totally missed the entire point of this thread and that was that we don't have anyone to replace Couturier.

 

 

So he is weak and not physical yet he irreplaceable?   Lol...

 

Alright guys, this thread is just going in circles.   Hope no hard feelings amonsgt the posters here...  No illwill meant and maybe the Flyers can give us something to cheer about. 

 

It will s comfoibg to know that we won't have to argue over Couts for the rest of the series.   Heck, maybe he will be traded in the off season and we can all get along.

 

 

[pilldoc]

I know emotions are heated right now because of the loss last night and the varying strong opinions on Coots.

 

Please argue the topic and not against each other.  I would really hate to hide posts.

[RonJeremy]

Ok, so let's get Coots on a weight training program with some core strengthening and power skating routines. He is at this time, the best defensive center we have and he also has size, He has shutdown the Malkenstien monster many times and Malkin is huge,so with a bit more size and strength and a bit more speed Coots can really be an all around force. Laughten, Cousins and Konecny are all small guys, so it seems as if Coots is all we have as a shutdown center at this time.

[mojo1917]

Since 14 has been an NHL pro he's had one off season where he wasn't rehabbing some sort of surgically repaired "something" that was last off season and we all saw that, indeed, his skating improved and he seemed to be playing a better offensive game.  I don't think his skating ceiling is much higher though. I don't know what can be done to make his fast twitch muscles significantly faster.  His top end speed isn't bad, it's the getting to his top end that takes too long, 
I also have been pining for him to use his frame to protect the puck better.  I rue the loss of Jagr who is not fast but is still among the strongest guys on the puck in the league, i'm sure there would/could be some mentoring going on there to help 14 mature into a Joe Thorton type possession player. I don't know that i think criticism of 14 is unwarranted I think Aziz makes a good point , there is a lot to like and some stuff to "not like" too with his game and skill set. 

[pilldoc]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

  I rue the loss of Jagr who is not fast but is still among the strongest guys on the puck in the league, i'm sure there would/could be some mentoring going on there to help 14 mature into a Joe Thorton type possession player. .

 

I find it amazing how the "not" resigning of Jagr, either rightly or wrongly, has affected this team.  For a player whom I despised when he wore a Pens jersey, I was thrilled when he came back to the NHL with a new found dedication.  His name, more than anyone else, who keeps popping up in threads, is one of the black eyes of this organization for the lack of resigning him.  We can speculate all we want, but how might have this team or some of the current players have benefitted by having someone like Jagr still on this team.  (yes, pure speculation I know).  Was very dissappointed when Homer failed to resign him.

 

(not trying to hijack the thread, just an observation from what mojo  posted)

[flyerrod]

2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

I know emotions are heated right now because of the loss last night and the varying strong opinions on Coots.

 

Please argue the topic and not against each other.  I would really hate to hide posts.

Well we could try and start an argument for how bad MacDonald but it would be a one sided conversation. Everybody with or without knowledge of the game gets that.......I try to stay out of this thread for the most part because I agree in principle with Pods( minus the perceived or other disagreements). His strong response has as much to do with it always being the same guys coming up with similar arguments as they have in previous posts. I just hope that we don't have to wait until they trade him away before his worth is realized.

[icehole]

9 hours ago, murraycraven said:

Good God here we go again...

 

 

 

 

Haha...don't you love it?

[icehole]

5 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

Ok, I'm going to stop you there.

 

What you are describing is a good hockey player, the kind you win with. His positioning is often perfect. The entire purpose is puck possession and mitigating risk (because he is playing against Ovie and Backstrom). Are you suggesting he should play more like Jordan Eberle and avoid that situation altogether, do a drive-by, because you know he might actually get hit by Ovechkin? 

 

Honest to god, people who have never played hockey should sometimes just shut it. 

I think couturier is a good player on a team that needs that type of player.  If the flyers were a big, skilled, fast, tough team that lacks intelligence and positioning, he could fill that gap.  The flyers aren't that type of team so his expertise won't help them in the playoffs.  If there were 5 Brayden Schenns out there, I'd say "wow, I'm glad couts is out there to balance it out."

[icehole]

4 hours ago, aziz said:

 

he didn't do anything wrong on the hit he took from ovechkin, and i never said he did.  if you would read before the hyperventilating.  he made a pass, was immediately rubbed out, and fell on his shoulder awkwardly.  he made the play fine, was unlucky with how he fell.

 

i was speaking more generally.  what i described was a player that generally opts against getting in the middle of scrums and whose challenging on loose pucks is often non-committal to the point of useless.  if that is what you call a good hockey player, the kind you win with, then cool.  we have some very different definitions of those terms.  i don't think he or his play are problems on any particular level --he gets an important job done, and done better than most-- but he certainly has less on-ice impact than he would if he were more aggressive in 50-50 situations or more prone to use his shoulders rather than his stick along the walls.  which is the opposite of the conclusion you somehow drew from my previous post.  couturier too often does drive-bys, especially on contested pucks.  i don't want him to play more like eberle, i want him to play less like eberle.

 

 i'm pretty good and tired of you dismissing people as uninformed whenever they have the nerve to voice an opinion that doesn't match yours.  you don't tell them they are wrong, you lambaste and condescend them like it is both your job and favorite activity.  i am not entirely sure why the powers-that-be on this site are so very ok with this, especially when you just sent a handful of it straight at the site's owner, but it is *very* old at this point.  

 

we understand that you think knowing how to tape up your shinpads makes you an expert on hockey at the NHL level.  we understand that you feel having no first hand knowledge of climbing over the boards removes all validity in a person's point of view or opinion on the game of hockey in general.  we get it.  we think it is a pathetic pretend trump card you feel an active need to play, but we get it.  now stfu about it.

I know what you are getting at.  He is a good player but he doesn't have "it".  Some people don't know what "it" is or don't even know "it" exists.  He is too nice to have "it".  There's not an angry bone in his body.  His skating isn't his fault.  Players that skate with anger skate faster and can take a hit better.  His type of play can be a great fit but not with the way this team is constructed now.

[Podein25]

13 minutes ago, icehole said:

He is a good player but he doesn't have "it".  Some people don't know what "it" is or don't even know "it" exists.  

 

Bwahahahahahaha. Good one. You wouldn't know what "it" was in hockey if it came up and slapped you in the face. 

[murraycraven]

47 minutes ago, icehole said:

Haha...don't you love it?

 

 

LOL!  I thought you would like this one!

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I know what you are getting at.  He is a good player but he doesn't have "it".  Some people don't know what "it" is or don't even know "it" exists.  He is too nice to have "it".  There's not an angry bone in his body.  His skating isn't his fault.  Players that skate with anger skate faster and can take a hit better.  His type of play can be a great fit but not with the way this team is constructed now.

 

56 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Bwahahahahahaha. Good one. You wouldn't know what "it" was in hockey if it came up and slapped you in the face.

 

so essentially what you are saying is ....that he plays the game "too" nicely. Treats the game like an "all-star" game instead of a regular season or playoff game.  In essence no emotional spark.  Is that what I think you are trying to relay here?  Even though he may have a high hockey IQ, with no emotional spark then there is no sense of urgency to skate better or throw a hit or protect the puck.  Is that what it is basically coming down to?  Coots plays too passively?  (I am asking here ... not stating a fact)