Hextall's Legacy as GM

[icehole]

What would Hextall have to do to make you feel like he was a successfull GM.  If he doesn't win a cup, is he a failure?

Some of us want to crown him as a genius, but his moves really haven't amounted to much yet.  He missed the playoffs with 84 points and he lost in the first round with a 96 (that surprised me) point season.

Let's look 8 years into the future.  Hextall left to be president of hockey operations for calgary after the 19/20 season.  The flyers are in a bit of a rebuilding mode, maybe squeaking into the playoffs or maybe missing.  We look back and he averaged 91 points, he missed the playoffs two seasons, lost in the first round two seasons, lost in the second round two seasons, lost in the ECF one season, and lost a cup final.

Does that make him a failure or is that success?

[radoran]

Dean Lombardi took over the Kings in 2006.

 

They missed the playoffs three straight years and then lost in the first round two straight years.

 

They then won the Cup, lost in the WCF and won the Cup.

 

It's way too early to judge Hextall's tenure as GM. 

 

EDIT: Besides, he's still dealing with that boat anchor of a draft pick from Holmgren. You know, Sean Couturier. 

[murraycraven]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

ou know, Sean Couturier. 

 

 

Couturier suk!

[icehole]

57 minutes ago, radoran said:

Dean Lombardi took over the Kings in 2006.

 

They missed the playoffs three straight years and then lost in the first round two straight years.

 

They then won the Cup, lost in the WCF and won the Cup.

 

It's way too early to judge Hextall's tenure as GM. 

 

EDIT: Besides, he's still dealing with that boat anchor of a draft pick from Holmgren. You know, Sean Couturier. 

I know it's early but I'm just having fun before the season starts.  I'm just interested in what standard we're holding hexy to.

Hextall was anchored by that #8 draft pick, but he had the chance to remedy that and didnt (yet).

[radoran]

7 minutes ago, icehole said:

I know it's early but I'm just having fun before the season starts.  I'm just interested in what standard we're holding hexy to.

Hextall was anchored by that #8 draft pick, but he had the chance to remedy that and didnt (yet).

 

I hold the standard that any GM is measured by: Win.

 

Every GMs goal is to win the Cup. Everything they do should be driven by that standard.

 

Holmgren said it when he was kicked upstairs. His goal was to win the Cup. He failed to do that.

 

There are shades of gray. Sometimes you run into a 1980s Edmonton Oilers.

[icehole]

19 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I hold the standard that any GM is measured by: Win.

 

Every GMs goal is to win the Cup. Everything they do should be driven by that standard.

 

Holmgren said it when he was kicked upstairs. His goal was to win the Cup. He failed to do that.

 

There are shades of gray. Sometimes you run into a 1980s Edmonton Oilers.

I hope the GM holds that standard, as well as the players.  I used to think that way, but I've changed in the past few years.  I want to be entertained.  I'd rather watch a team like the capitals who have entertaining players that pile up the points but come up short in the playoffs, than watch a team like the wings of the past decade who are pretty boring but they've sprinkled in a cup here and there.

If Hextall is in the running for preaidents trophy a few years, makes the playoffs more than not, and adds in a deep run a few of those seasons, I consider that a success.

[radoran]

Just now, icehole said:

I hope the GM holds that standard, as well as the players.  I used to think that way, but I've changed in the past few years.  I want to be entertained.  I'd rather watch a team like the capitals who have entertaining players that pile up the points but come up short in the playoffs, than watch a team like the wings of the past decade who are pretty boring but they've sprinkled in a cup here and there.

If Hextall is in the running for preaidents trophy a few years, makes the playoffs more than not, and adds in a deep run a few of those seasons, I consider that a success.

 

Those are some of the shades of gray. Fans' ultimate goal is often to be entertained. What is "entertaining" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I really enjoyed watching the Lindros years until they blew up. But I would still consider Clarke pretty much of a failure as a GM.

 

The Caps are an interesting case. They haven't been chasing the dragon like Clarke/Holmgren. They have made a serious effort to build a team and brought in complimentary pieces. 

 

I'm hoping Hextall does the same thing - as he appears to be doing. 

 

I could see evaluating a guy based on whether he had a plan, how he executed it and what the results were. 

 

That's why it's far too early to be evaluating Hextall. 

[RJ8812]

To be honest, after 40 years of coming up short, if he doesnt get us a Cup, it's a failure

 

He's definitely on the right track now though. Way too early to judge him, but I love what he's done so far. The only move I disagree with is the return he got for Hartnell, but you can't win them all.

[Poconono]

Just as fallacious as the rush to anoint Hextall as some sort of hockey genius is the general assumption that the Flyers' blueline is set for the next decade.  There are no guarantees that all that young talent will pan out.  There may be injuries. legal issues, and/or career changes as well as misjudgment of talent that could come into play.  Odds are good that at least two or three of the kids will make the NHL, but this is still an organization that hasn't drafted and developed a top-flight defenseman since the 70's.  Right now Hexy's rep has been on the rise primarily because of the scouting reports on Provorov, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg, Myers, and Friedman.  Prospects often become suspect. The way we judge him in 5 years will probably be based on their development.

[Howie58]

Given the long drought, I think a Cup will be needed for him to be judged successful. We are heading in the right direction.  I hope we challenge within 2-3 years.

 

Howie

[icehole]

10 hours ago, Poconono said:

Just as fallacious as the rush to anoint Hextall as some sort of hockey genius is the general assumption that the Flyers' blueline is set for the next decade.  There are no guarantees that all that young talent will pan out.  There may be injuries. legal issues, and/or career changes as well as misjudgment of talent that could come into play.  Odds are good that at least two or three of the kids will make the NHL, but this is still an organization that hasn't drafted and developed a top-flight defenseman since the 70's.  Right now Hexy's rep has been on the rise primarily because of the scouting reports on Provorov, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg, Myers, and Friedman.  Prospects often become suspect. The way we judge him in 5 years will probably be based on their development.

I agree with this 100%.  That's why I'm not a huge fan of putting all of my eggs in that basket. I'd rather try to aquire known talent than take a gamble on prospects.  Don't get me wrong, drafting is very important, but I think Hextall may be relying on it more than he should.  Let's say only 2 prospects pan out, giroux falls off, and voracek isn't the player we saw for one season.  The team won't be very good, and these "patience" years will have been a waste of time.

[icehole]

Whether he wins the cup or not, will he be hated as much as holmgren, or will he be looked at more glowingly because of the way he tried to build the team?

[flyercanuck]

12 hours ago, Poconono said:

Just as fallacious as the rush to anoint Hextall as some sort of hockey genius is the general assumption that the Flyers' blueline is set for the next decade.  There are no guarantees that all that young talent will pan out.  There may be injuries. legal issues, and/or career changes as well as misjudgment of talent that could come into play.  Odds are good that at least two or three of the kids will make the NHL, but this is still an organization that hasn't drafted and developed a top-flight defenseman since the 70's.  Right now Hexy's rep has been on the rise primarily because of the scouting reports on Provorov, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg, Myers, and Friedman.  Prospects often become suspect. The way we judge him in 5 years will probably be based on their development.

 

I'm not anointing Hextall as a genius...but I will give him full credit for not going the same route as the previous regimes that traded away picks and prospects and won the same amount of cups combined as Hextall has in 2 years as gm. 

 

Maybe the defencemen don't all pan out. Maybe the goalies don't either. At least he has the hockey IQ to realize you actually need quality at those positions to win a cup. In two years as gm he's built the deepest pool of defencemen AND goaltenders this franchise has ever seen. In TWO years.

 

And still has a decent forward pool to boot.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I agree with this 100%.  That's why I'm not a huge fan of putting all of my eggs in that basket. I'd rather try to aquire known talent than take a gamble on prospects.  Don't get me wrong, drafting is very important, but I think Hextall may be relying on it more than he should.  Let's say only 2 prospects pan out, giroux falls off, and voracek isn't the player we saw for one season.  The team won't be very good, and these "patience" years will have been a waste of time.

 

So if Hextall trades all the prospects away for old washed up guys, decides goaltending doesn't matter, and neither do defencemen. And goes out signing every used to be great name he can get his hands on for ridiculous long term contracts that handcuff the next gm for years to come while leaving the prospect cupboard as one of the saddest in the entire league while still winning squat, that'd be the route to go? 

 

At least with Hextall there's hope for the future.

 

Lets say ALL our prospects end up as the greatest players of all time...and invent a cure for cancer between periods? Not such a waste of time now, is it Negative Nelly? Well, except for Couturier..he's still the worst player ever in the NHLs history. 

 

Maybe you don't think prospects matter...the best players in the league were all prospects at one time. And there isn't a team in the league who isn't jealous of what Philly has for up and coming defencemen. 

[icehole]

How do I become Positive Percy?  Those years of signing washed up guys gave me a lot of good memories and joy.  That's all I knew because there was never a time when they put on the brakes and said "just wait...we'll be fun to watch in 5 years".  Homer got pretty far with his plan, so if Hextall doesn't win a cup, I'll hate him for making me wait, only to take me as far as Holmgren did.

I assume you're talking about holmgren leaving hextall with bad contracts?  Did clarke leave any bad contracts for holmgren?  How long did it take for him to get the team to winning again?

[flyercanuck]

LOL...wait and see how Hextalls plan pans out.

 

So far he's got what looks to be a #1 defenceman that can play for Philly his entire career. Think Mark Howe or Eric Desjardins only we have him as a teenager. Philly traded for those two but teams don't do that much anymore...they realize true #1 Dmen are few and far between. He's also got several other defenceman that could make this team a total powerhouse from the backend going forward. Ghost is already proving himself, and Sanheim could be Ghost with size. Morin looks like the kind of guy you don't want to park yourself beside in front of the net in a playoff game. And there's even more after that. Myers, Friedman, Hagg are all legitimate prospects.

 

 Hextall has 6...count em SIX, legit goalie prospects. SIX. Holmgren had one his entire tenure. Well, two, but he dumped one for Bryzgalov.

 

 If the NHL hadn't saved him we'd still be bitching about the Bryz contract that has us totally fubarred. Just like his VLC contract that Hextall miraculously made disappear....or his Pronger contract. Or the McDud one that he's still trying to get rid of. Good times, huh?

 

 But what about that one glorious year when the planets aligned and Michael "softy" Leighton had us in the cup final? Then the genius Holmgren blew up the team to rebuild, but got rid of the young up and coming goalie (the only reason Russia is still playing in the world cup) for a headcase and handed him one of THE worst contracts in NHL history. Man I miss those days. There was some serious planning going on there.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Hextall has a great plan in place in terms of succession. Even though he's put all his eggs in one basket so to speak with the prospect defensemen, the fact is, he's making every one of them earn their spot on the team. He's not handing them anything and he's basically telling them to work hard and force their way onto the club. That's why I think Provorov, Sanheim, Morin and Friedman are going to be players - they're going to have to step up and force their way on the club. Don't forget that there's still veteran mentorship with regards to Gudas and Del Zotto. 

 

in terms of goaltending, that's one thing Hextall has a great eye for. Look at his time in Los Angeles and the pipeline of goaltenders was basically Hextall's doing. He knows goaltending, so it won't surprise me to see a legitimate number one franchise goalie come from one of Sandstrom, Tomek, Lyon, Hart, or Stolarz. 

 

The thing with Hextall is that everything is built on patience. You can't buy your way to a Stanley Cup championship anymore. It's built through smart drafting, smart free agent choices, trading at an opportune moment and cap space. Right now, Hextall has rebuilt the prospect pipeline into one of the best in the league. He's signed good free agents for relatively cheap (Del Zotto, Weise, Gordon). He's made some very good trades (his return on Coburn was incredibly high and don't forget how important the Vinny trade to LA was to get Vinny and Luke Schenn off the books). 

 

There's still work to do though. Hextall still has some bad contracts to get out from under (the good news is that this is the last year of the Streit deal, but McDonald will be a challenge). As well, the goaltending tandem in Philadelphia is about to become free agents, so at least one of Stolarz and Lyon are going to need to see if they can get the job done. He's also go to hope that the forwards can really produce this year. They really stepped up in the second half after they got used to Hakstol's system. The first half, they weren't bad, but they weren't great either. If they can get off to a fast start and really push the offense, then they'll be fine.

 

In the end, it takes more than two years to build a Stanley Cup caliber club. People need to be patient and for the first time in a long time, the Flyers have a GM that understands the building process and won't mortgage the future for a chance (and not a very good chance) at being a contender. 

[mojo1917]

I'm ready for hockey to start so we can talk about what we see on the ice.

 

I know this is a quasi intellectual exercise...but the "what if game" of sucking doesn't bring me joy.  so you've that that going for you @icehole

 

To answer the question seriously though I think he will need to win a cup for the full fan base to consider his tenure a success.  I already feel as though he is getting the organization on the right track and if he were to quit tomorrow I would say he left the team better than he found it.  

 

No one knows the future, these prospects won't all reach their full potential. There are a lot of quality prospects now, so the odds of having several guys really impact the team and league in a positive fashion are better than they have been since I have been following the team, and that's a damn long time.

[RJ8812]

4 hours ago, icehole said:

I agree with this 100%.  That's why I'm not a huge fan of putting all of my eggs in that basket. I'd rather try to aquire known talent than take a gamble on prospects.  Don't get me wrong, drafting is very important, but I think Hextall may be relying on it more than he should.  Let's say only 2 prospects pan out, giroux falls off, and voracek isn't the player we saw for one season.  The team won't be very good, and these "patience" years will have been a waste of time.

Your core is built through the draft, then you add complimentary pieces via trades and free agency

[flyercanuck]

21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm ready for hockey to start so we can talk about what we see on the ice.

 

I know this is a quasi intellectual exercise...but the "what if game" of sucking doesn't bring me joy.  so you've that that going for you @icehole

 

To answer the question seriously though I think he will need to win a cup for the full fan base to consider his tenure a success.  I already feel as though he is getting the organization on the right track and if he were to quit tomorrow I would say he left the team better than he found it.  

 

No one knows the future, these prospects won't all reach their full potential. There are a lot of quality prospects now, so the odds of having several guys really impact the team and league in a positive fashion are better than they have been since I have been following the team, and that's a damn long time.

 

There isn't a gm in the league who hits on all his draft picks...not even close. But it just makes sense that the more picks you have, the better chance you have of hitting on some. 

 

Hextall seems to have figured that no-brainer idea out. Homer didn't.

[RJ8812]

15 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

There isn't a gm in the league who hits on all his draft picks...not even close. But it just makes sense that the more picks you have, the better chance you have of hitting on some. 

 

Hextall seems to have figured that no-brainer idea out. Homer didn't.

 

Homer had Snider up his ass making him go all in for the Cup

[ruxpin]

This is Philly.

 

Hextall is a failure.  Period.  Next topic. 

 

Even if he wins the Cup and retires, resigns, or gets caught with something at a boarder crossing 3 weeks later, we will all judge him based on what happens after that--even with a new GM.   "Yeah, but he mortgaged XYZ to get it done and NOW look at us!  A Cup is a great and all that, but that was 7 months ago!"

[icehole]

On 9/24/2016 at 9:18 AM, flyercanuck said:

LOL...wait and see how Hextalls plan pans out.

 

So far he's got what looks to be a #1 defenceman that can play for Philly his entire career. Think Mark Howe or Eric Desjardins only we have him as a teenager. Philly traded for those two but teams don't do that much anymore...they realize true #1 Dmen are few and far between. He's also got several other defenceman that could make this team a total powerhouse from the backend going forward. Ghost is already proving himself, and Sanheim could be Ghost with size. Morin looks like the kind of guy you don't want to park yourself beside in front of the net in a playoff game. And there's even more after that. Myers, Friedman, Hagg are all legitimate prospects.

 

 Hextall has 6...count em SIX, legit goalie prospects. SIX. Holmgren had one his entire tenure. Well, two, but he dumped one for Bryzgalov.

 

 If the NHL hadn't saved him we'd still be bitching about the Bryz contract that has us totally fubarred. Just like his VLC contract that Hextall miraculously made disappear....or his Pronger contract. Or the McDud one that he's still trying to get rid of. Good times, huh?

 

 But what about that one glorious year when the planets aligned and Michael "softy" Leighton had us in the cup final? Then the genius Holmgren blew up the team to rebuild, but got rid of the young up and coming goalie (the only reason Russia is still playing in the world cup) for a headcase and handed him one of THE worst contracts in NHL history. Man I miss those days. There was some serious planning going on there.

I agree that Hextall has set this team up to be good for a while.  I also agree that Holmgren made some bad moves.  My point is, whether you think Hextall is the greatest GM to live due to the moves he's made, or you want to throw up when you think of the moves Holmgren made, in the end if Hextall doesn't win a cup, he will have had the same amount of success as Holmgren. 

If Holmgren made all of these bad moves and missed the playoffs 6 of 8 seasons, was knocked out the first round in 2 seasons, and was in the bottom 5 for 4 season, I would consider him to be a bad GM.  They were really competitive despite his unpopular moves.  And despite the garbage he left for Hextall, they managed to make the playoffs and compete in year two.

BTW, I still think Hextall had a say in the MacDonald deal.

[OccamsRazor]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:19 AM, radoran said:

Dean Lombardi took over the Kings in 2006.

 

 

Exactly.

 

And a lot of key pieces were already in the system (from Dave Taylor) like their Captain and the Cup winning goaltender.

 

And just like the case with Hextall, Homer had some pieces in place.

 

Homer brought in Sean Couturier, Nick Cousins, Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Leier, Morin and Hagg.

 

And traded for Steve Mason whom he resigned. And yeah he made several bad moves which has been well documented.

 

So he did do some good things. And he was the Assistant GM when they drafted Giroux.

 

Then Hextall puts his touches on things with some good moves...lets hope it all ends in a Cup!!!

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I agree that Hextall has set this team up to be good for a while.  I also agree that Holmgren made some bad moves.  My point is, whether you think Hextall is the greatest GM to live due to the moves he's made, or you want to throw up when you think of the moves Holmgren made, in the end if Hextall doesn't win a cup, he will have had the same amount of success as Holmgren. 

If Holmgren made all of these bad moves and missed the playoffs 6 of 8 seasons, was knocked out the first round in 2 seasons, and was in the bottom 5 for 4 season, I would consider him to be a bad GM.  They were really competitive despite his unpopular moves.  And despite the garbage he left for Hextall, they managed to make the playoffs and compete in year two.

BTW, I still think Hextall had a say in the MacDonald deal.

 

Hextalls been gm for 2 years. Only an idiot (or his mom) would think he's the greatest gm ever.

 

If I sold my house I could go out and buy a new Mercedes and some stylin' suits and a big boat and a trip around the world. It would look like I'm doing really well, but in the long run I'd be out on the street. That's how Homer ran the Flyers.

 

The Hawks are the most successful franchise presently in the NHL. Their best players were drafted, not bought. And when they keep winning and players want big paydays, they can't afford to pay them all with the salary cap. So they deal them off for picks and prospects and continually fill those holes with cheap young talent...aka draft picks.

 

Making the playoffs isn't my goal as a Flyer fan. I've seen them in the playoffs...they were there last year. Big deal. I want a cup.