flyer4ever Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Here we go again with the push to finish 8th. What a gong show. Sitting TK and Ghost to make the playoffs does not make these guys better. That is caveman hockey. If these guys are not going to play just so you can sneak into the playoffs and continue the drive to mediocrity then send them to the minors so they can play. Sitting guys who have been elite players all their lives does not make them better. Sitting so Streit, Macdonald, Weise, Read, Bellemare, Vandevelde, etc can play is a ****ing joke. I am so disappointed in Hextall. This push to finish 8th again is like a 15 year long version of Groundhog Day. Except this version is not funny. It's pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digityman Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I agree that it doesn't help to have them sit at all but they have a long long way to finish in the 8th seed and the schedule gets harder as they go. Flyers have and will always be about winning. Hak found the combination that has got them points and as a coach he has to stick with it. That being said, can either of TK and Ghost be sent to the AHL without going through waivers? (I'm not smart enough to know about those rules). Although I remember reading something about if TK was kept in the beginning of the season he can't go back to minors....maybe I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 Dman, you are probably right about waivers and league rules about going to the AHL. As far as the Flyers being all about winning, the current business plan is not winning, it's mediocrity. Finishing 8th is not a win, it's being not quite as bad as 7 or 8 other teams, and it seals your fate to stay there in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 2 hours ago, flyer4ever said: Dman, you are probably right about waivers and league rules about going to the AHL. As far as the Flyers being all about winning, the current business plan is not winning, it's mediocrity. Finishing 8th is not a win, it's being not quite as bad as 7 or 8 other teams, and it seals your fate to stay there in the future. Finished 7th in 2010. Would have been 8th, but for the technicalities. One less point and the Flyers don't make the playoffs at all. They took that to OT in game 6. Just saying. Finishing 8th and Finishing 9th is a huge difference and this team's mental state CANNOT afford to finish 9th this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I said it in another thread: trying to rebuild and remain competitive serves neither purpose well. I'm not saying TK and Ghost do not benefit from being scratched. I do think it can be helpful for young players who struggle at times to see the game from above. Plus, maybe letting guys continue to struggle in games isn't helpful. I can understand that. But if the benchings are motivated by a desire to ice a more "defensively responsible" lineup and accumulate points, then that's a problem in my view. I really don't know what to make of it all, especially since the benchings have continued for several games, though it seems like TK is back in the lineup, but perhaps that's more to do with an issue with Read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 minute ago, vis said: I said it in another thread: trying to rebuild and remain competitive serves neither purpose well. This has always been my #1 issue with the "Plan." Building through the draft is great and I am all on board but constantly being stuck in mediocrity makes the plan that much harder. You are betting on hitting on most prospects in the draft which is pretty risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 2 hours ago, King Knut said: Finished 7th in 2010. Would have been 8th, but for the technicalities. One less point and the Flyers don't make the playoffs at all. They took that to OT in game 6. Just saying. Finishing 8th and Finishing 9th is a huge difference and this team's mental state CANNOT afford to finish 9th this year. Imagine this teams mental state if they'd finished 8th in 2015 and instead of having Provorov and Konecny we had Jake Debrusk and Brayden Coburn? This team isn't the 2010 team...instead of Pronger and Timonen there's Del Zotto and McDud. Missing the playoffs and getting a chance to draft Provorov (and trade Coburn basically for Konecny) put this team a lot further ahead going forward than yet another first round beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 20 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Imagine this teams mental state if they'd finished 8th in 2015 and instead of having Provorov and Konecny we had Jake Debrusk and Brayden Coburn? This team isn't the 2010 team...instead of Pronger and Timonen there's Del Zotto and McDud. Missing the playoffs and getting a chance to draft Provorov (and trade Coburn basically for Konecny) put this team a lot further ahead going forward than yet another first round beating. They got extremely lucky with both Provorov and Konecney falling to where they did and they said so at the time. They finished dead last in 2007 and it got them Luke Schenn 5 years later. The Penguins needed 5 years of top five picks to get decent. The Oilers have had that much and STILL aren't good. My only point is you need to be smart and lucky, but when your Core is still young enough to be in it's prime, unless there's an Austin Matthews or a Connor McDavid waiting to be drafted, I don't see how tanking helps you get anywhere any faster than what they're doing. I still believe they're two strategically placed players away from being quite good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 26 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Imagine this teams mental state if they'd finished 8th in 2015 and instead of having Provorov and Konecny we had Jake Debrusk and Brayden Coburn? This team isn't the 2010 team...instead of Pronger and Timonen there's Del Zotto and McDud. Missing the playoffs and getting a chance to draft Provorov (and trade Coburn basically for Konecny) put this team a lot further ahead going forward than yet another first round beating. Just out of curiosity who are you suggesting trading? I'm all for unloading Streit, MDZ and Schultz. Maybe even Mason or Neuwirth if the chance comes along. When I talk about winning now, I actually think this team will play better without MDZ on it at all. Streit could hurt a little bit, but I'm willing to make the sacrifice for something decent in return. I'm just not sold on trading Giroux yet. Yet. Again, if this was a year with McDavid and Eichel, I'd think about it. It's not that kind of year from what I understand. I'm also into trading one or two of the kids. Myers for instance. Maybe Hagg (though from what I hear he's close and we need his skills more right now if it's true). I'd trade them to get the scoring threat up front and I'd trade Streit and MDZ for picks and I'd try to trade Schultz and a goalie or picks for JBouw (for a two year bridge and a defensive minded Vet D man). Myers and Hagg? The Deuce you say? Yes. Alternatively I'd say Gudas, but the fact is you can only play 6 D men at a time and the lineup doesn't benefit from having 6 first and second year D men on it all at once. Even 4 + Gudas and Manning is asking a lot. Sacrificing one of them for a scoring threat makes sense. Unless there's some fantastic draft class of sure bets brewing this year that I don't know about. There ain't a McDavid or Matthews every year despite how things have gone lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Konecny cannot be sent to the AHL (too young). Gostisbehere can without having to go through waivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerrod Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Konecny cannot be sent to the AHL (too young). Gostisbehere can without having to go through waivers Well we could send MacDud down...he has a waiver proof contract..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 hour ago, King Knut said: Just out of curiosity who are you suggesting trading? I'm all for unloading Streit, MDZ and Schultz. Maybe even Mason or Neuwirth if the chance comes along. When I talk about winning now, I actually think this team will play better without MDZ on it at all. Streit could hurt a little bit, but I'm willing to make the sacrifice for something decent in return. I'm in on all except maybe Mason, depending on the return. 1 hour ago, King Knut said: I'm just not sold on trading Giroux yet. Yet. Again, if this was a year with McDavid and Eichel, I'd think about it. It's not that kind of year from what I understand. I'd trade anyone on the team for the right price. But I'm not in the "let's get rid of Giroux" camp. But if someone wanted him bad and went all Holmgren on us, I'd bite. 1 hour ago, King Knut said: I'm also into trading one or two of the kids. Myers for instance. Maybe Hagg (though from what I hear he's close and we need his skills more right now if it's true). 1 hour ago, King Knut said: I'd trade them to get the scoring threat up front and I'd trade Streit and MDZ for picks and I'd try to trade Schultz and a goalie or picks for JBouw (for a two year bridge and a defensive minded Vet D man). Myers and Hagg? The Deuce you say? I wouldn't trade either for one reason...we don't know which of our prospects are actually going to be impact NHLers, which will be bottom pairing and which will be AHLers. I think of those two Hagg is likely bottom pairing, and Myers has potential to be top pairing. You don't trade that. And Hagg likely isn't going to bring in a whole lot at this point. 1 hour ago, King Knut said: Yes. Alternatively I'd say Gudas, but the fact is you can only play 6 D men at a time and the lineup doesn't benefit from having 6 first and second year D men on it all at once. Even 4 + Gudas and Manning is asking a lot. Sacrificing one of them for a scoring threat makes sense. I agree on the green blueliners. I see Morin coming in after the deadline maybe. Sanheim next year. Maybe Hagg. Maybe hextall can sign a vet with a few years left in him to help smooth out the process. 1 hour ago, King Knut said: Unless there's some fantastic draft class of sure bets brewing this year that I don't know about. There ain't a McDavid or Matthews every year despite how things have gone lately. No, it's not fantastic. The '15 class was a good one...will likely go down like the 03 class that got us Carter/Richards. But there's still some good players as always. The pickings just get slimmer faster when there's no depth there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 41 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: I wouldn't trade either for one reason...we don't know which of our prospects are actually going to be impact NHLers, which will be bottom pairing and which will be AHLers. I think of those two Hagg is likely bottom pairing, and Myers has potential to be top pairing. You don't trade that. And Hagg likely isn't going to bring in a whole lot at this point. I agree on the green blueliners. I see Morin coming in after the deadline maybe. Sanheim next year. Maybe Hagg. Maybe hextall can sign a vet with a few years left in him to help smooth out the process. Injust dont see see how you improve up front without being willing to trade an asset on D. Those we have in spades. I don't see Morin coming up this year unless Streit, MdZ and Schultz are all traded with no D men coming in return. I think Hak is aware of the pairings problem and is seeing th dividends now with the last few games of shut down boring slow down hockey. At at least I hope he sees that and doesn't just assume it's because he benched ghost. Mason should probably be sent to the highest bidder if anyone wants him. I'd think Dallas might be a good fit. He's good old enough for a deal but we don't need a long term goalie and he deserves a long term deal somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I just don't think there is an easy answer right now. The way that this team is constructed, they're good enough to sneak into the playoffs, and do so by being one of the most boring teams I've ever seen. My god, they are dull! Even if they did fall to the bottom of the league, who knows what's coming from this draft. However, I am in for gathering as many picks as possible to give the team the best chance of getting a winner or two. That's why the only player over 22 that is untouchable to me is simmonds. People sometimes forget that you need to give something to get something. We can't hold onto players because we like them and they can do some things well. Example, Bellemare and Couturier are great pkers (so I'm told). I wouldn't hesitate for a second to lose either one. This team needs scorers! This team also needs guys that are tougher than basically anyone not named gudas or simmonds. I think Hextall has a good plan but his execution hasn't been good. I like TK, but I think the league is getting bigger...I'm not sure he can be the top 6 player I want him to be. At the risk of sounding like a neanderthal, this team needs toughness. This team needs grit. This team needs size. I'd be perfectly content if my 4th line went back to being an "energy" line, the third line was built with responsible defensive specialists, and my top two lines were built with hot shots that hang out at center ice the entire game. I've said it before and my brother brought it up the other week. The 2006 team that was dead last, was still more fun to watch than this garbage. Until they were all but eliminated, I always thought they could turn it around. They had some stars and they still had toughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 8 hours ago, Digityman said: Hak found the combination that has got them points and as a coach he has to stick with it. Great. Now he can run Neuvirth into the ground just in time for a huge collapse in R1. Then Mason will come in, stand on his head till G6 at home ... where the 8th seed Flyers get shut out. Beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 51 minutes ago, icehole said: I just don't think there is an easy answer right now. The way that this team is constructed, they're good enough to sneak into the playoffs, and do so by being one of the most boring teams I've ever seen. My god, they are dull! Even if they did fall to the bottom of the league, who knows what's coming from this draft. However, I am in for gathering as many picks as possible to give the team the best chance of getting a winner or two. That's why the only player over 22 that is untouchable to me is simmonds. People sometimes forget that you need to give something to get something. We can't hold onto players because we like them and they can do some things well. Example, Bellemare and Couturier are great pkers (so I'm told). I wouldn't hesitate for a second to lose either one. This team needs scorers! This team also needs guys that are tougher than basically anyone not named gudas or simmonds. I think Hextall has a good plan but his execution hasn't been good. I like TK, but I think the league is getting bigger...I'm not sure he can be the top 6 player I want him to be. At the risk of sounding like a neanderthal, this team needs toughness. This team needs grit. This team needs size. I'd be perfectly content if my 4th line went back to being an "energy" line, the third line was built with responsible defensive specialists, and my top two lines were built with hot shots that hang out at center ice the entire game. I've said it before and my brother brought it up the other week. The 2006 team that was dead last, was still more fun to watch than this garbage. Until they were all but eliminated, I always thought they could turn it around. They had some stars and they still had toughness. For Christ's sake you know shit has gone upside down when you and I agree! Lol.... We had energy in Ryan White.... Instead we gave a 4 yr deal with a total stiff in Weise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, murraycraven said: For Christ's sake you know shit has gone upside down when you and I agree! Lol.... We had energy in Ryan White.... Instead we gave a 4 yr deal with a total stiff in Weise. White at least does other stuff if he's not scoring (hits, fights). Weise does none of that. Such a waste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 8 hours ago, King Knut said: Injust dont see see how you improve up front without being willing to trade an asset on D. Those we have in spades. Draft basically all forwards the next few drafts? 8 hours ago, King Knut said: I don't see Morin coming up this year unless Streit, MdZ and Schultz are all traded with no D men coming in return. I see no reason NOT to trade all three. Other than who wants them. 8 hours ago, King Knut said: I think Hak is aware of the pairings problem and is seeing th dividends now with the last few games of shut down boring slow down hockey. At at least I hope he sees that and doesn't just assume it's because he benched ghost. Mason should probably be sent to the highest bidder if anyone wants him. I'd think Dallas might be a good fit. He's good old enough for a deal but we don't need a long term goalie and he deserves a long term deal somewhere. Again, I'd trade anyone for the right price. Not sure you're getting a whole lot for Mason at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Draft basically all forwards the next few drafts? I see no reason NOT to trade all three. Other than who wants them. Again, I'd trade anyone for the right price. Not sure you're getting a whole lot for Mason at this point. That's exactly it. People were talking about maybe a 1st or 2nd round pick if you trade streit at the deadline. Really??? If the flyers were a contender but they lost their best 25 year old defenseman a few months before playoffs, would anyone here be willing to give up a 1st or 2nd for 39 year old streit? Hell, some of us are afraid to give up an AHLer that hasn't done anything, or a guy like bellemare that is a 4th line pker. The only guys that are worth anything are giroux, voracek, Simmonds, and provorov. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm willing to give up 2 of those guys. But again, what are you getting in return for $8mill players that underperform? They would have to get salary unloaded back on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, icehole said: That's exactly it. People were talking about maybe a 1st or 2nd round pick if you trade streit at the deadline. Really??? If the flyers were a contender but they lost their best 25 year old defenseman a few months before playoffs, would anyone here be willing to give up a 1st or 2nd for 39 year old streit? Hell, some of us are afraid to give up an AHLer that hasn't done anything, or a guy like bellemare that is a 4th line pker. The only guys that are worth anything are giroux, voracek, Simmonds, and provorov. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm willing to give up 2 of those guys. But again, what are you getting in return for $8mill players that underperform? They would have to get salary unloaded back on them. I don't recall anyone recently saying we'd get a 1st for Streit. You may get a 2nd if two teams both are in dire need of a pp defenceman. But more likely a 3rd. A 3rd round pick doesn't sound like much when you're trying to rebuild your team. But if you can get extra picks every draft the odds of you hitting one out of the park become a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 If trading Giroux means getting a guy like Reinhart in Buffalo, I'm all for it. Giroux to Buffalo for Reinhart and Girgensons. Buffalo gets a mentor for Eichel and someone who can be interchanged with O'Reilly. Philadelphia gets a first line center to build around and can grow with the defense as well as someone who can man a checking only role. The other guy I'd move would be Voracek. Move him to Washington for Burakovsky, Vrana and someone with a big expiring contract. Just get lots of youth for the wings and center and go from there. Completely change the face of franchise and do the rebuild properly. The Flyers have been retooling for years. Its time to stop something that hasn't worked and build properly. As other organizations have shown, you can't cheat a rebuild. You have to take your lumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 23 hours ago, flyer4ever said: Here we go again with the push to finish 8th. What a gong show. Sitting TK and Ghost to make the playoffs does not make these guys better. That is caveman hockey. If these guys are not going to play just so you can sneak into the playoffs and continue the drive to mediocrity then send them to the minors so they can play. Sitting guys who have been elite players all their lives does not make them better. Sitting so Streit, Macdonald, Weise, Read, Bellemare, Vandevelde, etc can play is a ****ing joke. I am so disappointed in Hextall. This push to finish 8th again is like a 15 year long version of Groundhog Day. Except this version is not funny. It's pathetic. So, you shouldn't sit an unproven kid.... because he was good and juniors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Draft basically all forwards the next few drafts? I see no reason NOT to trade all three. Other than who wants them. Again, I'd trade anyone for the right price. Not sure you're getting a whole lot for Mason at this point. Drafting all forwards in the next few drafts isn't a great strategy. We've got extremely lucky with the D men over recent years. Even Konecney was a lucky draw and who knows what he's going to turn into. The Flyers just aren't bad enough to bank on a few drafts resulting in safe bets. Even if they had top three picks for three years, that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to end up with top notch talent in 6 years time. The safest way to go about your strategy would be to sell off as many chips as they can for first round picks including G, Jake and Simmer. They'll suck for the next 5 years at least, but they could end up with 6 or 7 first round picks over the next few years and that gives them a better shot at A) higher picks and B) good picks. I don't happen to think that's what's called for, but that's the best way to go about it. As far as Mason goes, I think there may be a team or two interested in him. but it seems more likely that if those teams are shopping for a goalie, the Penguins and The Blackhawks are going to talk deals on goalies that they're desperate to unload. But Mason will probably be offered more elsewhere in FA and frankly, I think he should take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I guess half of this thread is moot now that TK is hurt. It's almost like Hakstol planned it. Cruel turn of events for the kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 minute ago, King Knut said: I guess half of this thread is moot now that TK is hurt. It's almost like Hakstol planned it. Cruel turn of events for the kid. I'm just glad it's his leg and not his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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