Here's a radical idea...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

It's funny when people say Couturier is horrible, but his Corsi stats are great. Considering the man gets next to no power play time, his numbers are actually quite good and Corsi supports that. Give him power play time and instead of 16 points in 46 games, he's probably got 23 to 24 points. Now, in fairness, Couturier needs a coach who is consistently on him to drive him to be better. The man is so selfless, that it becomes a problem. Part of me wishes the Flyers hired Claude Julien when was available because I could see him being that coach that gets the best out of Couturier.

 

Right now, if I'm Hextall and Hakstol, at the end of the season, I have the year end interview and this is what I tell him: focus on winning faceoffs because you're going to fill the Primeau role on this club. Don't worry about offense, worry about face offs and being physical. Two, power skating lessons are a must. Simply put, there's not enough jump in your stride and there isn't enough power. You need speed and jump to be effective in this role and it's time to start getting the skating looked after. Third, you're going to have to be more selfish in your play. You're going to need to take shots instead of always passing. You're going to need to drive the play to the net. Take advantage of your size.

 

So, for the start of next season, this is how I see the club shaping up:

 

Lindblom - Giroux - Voracek

Konecny - Trade/FA acquisition - Simmonds

Weal - Couturier - Schenn

Leier - Laughton - Lyubimov

 

Defense next season should look like this:

 

Provorov - Gudas

Hagg - Gostisbehere

Morin - Sanheim

 

The biggest issue I see right now is goaltending and that's only because they need a veteran alongside Stolarz. The question is what route do they go? Do they sign a guy like Brian Elliott or do they open the bank for someone like Ben Bishop? Maybe they make a deal for one of the goalies that Las Vegas might choose (Marc Andre Fleury, Calvin Pickard, Semyeon Varlamov or maybe a Philip Grubauer) or maybe they decide that Stolarz and Lyon are capable of holding the fort.

 

What complicates everything is that if things go accordingly and if Read gets selected in the expansion draft, you're looking at nearly $23 million in cap space. Not everyone on the list might even be on the team if Hextall decides to start wheeling and dealing.

 

There's so many ways this can go. However, I'm convinced that moving Couturier back to the Primeau role is the ideal way to use him. Have Schenn on his right so there's some offense and Weal on the left to bring speed to the line. Who knows. That might just be an elite third line that can check and score and keep the opposition honest. Yes, Couturier would be the defensive cog, but having Schenn and Weal could be the scorers that make this a tough line to stop.

 

The summer should be fun after this mess of a year.

[ruxpin]

Quote

It's funny when people say Couturier is horrible, but his Corsi stats are great. Considering the man gets next to no power play time, his numbers are actually quite good and Corsi supports that

When the object of the game becomes "who has the best corsi" I'll be really impressed. 

 

While the score is still measured by how many times the puck goes in the net vs the other team, I'm going to continue to expect my second line center to contribute to that a little more often than never. 

 

[vis]

3 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

It's funny when people say Couturier is horrible, but his Corsi stats are great. Considering the man gets next to no power play time, his numbers are actually quite good and Corsi supports that. Give him power play time and instead of 16 points in 46 games, he's probably got 23 to 24 points.

Who has been wearing #14 and centering the second unit PP all season?  What I am missing here?

 

Btw, in 42 games, he has 2 assists on the PP.  Centering the second PP unit.  And QB'ing quite a bit of it from the half boards.  2 assists.  I find that simply amazing.

 

If you want him on the first PP unit, who should he replace?

 

I am not dismissive of advanced stats.  But watch Couturier.  He does not drive play.  He's a disaster offensively.  Displays no offensive instincts.  As your second line center, eating the minutes he does, you need more production from him.  Instead, he seems to have regressed.

 

He's ok, stats-wise, as a defensive center.  But he should not be on the PP, let alone centering the second line at even strength.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

22 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Landing strip! Are we allowed to say landing strip? 

 

@vis

 

ham wallet ? i was going to type ham wallet.

[vis]

@WordsOfWisdom @mojo1917

 

lol...

[murraycraven]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

When the object of the game becomes "who has the best corsi" I'll be really impressed. 

 

While the score is still measured by how many times the puck goes in the net vs the other team, I'm going to continue to expect my second line center to contribute to that a little more often than never. 

 

 

 

and that expectation is absolutely correct.  However, I think we all know that Couts is miscast as a 2nd line C.   Just hope Ronny sees this as well....  maybe it is just buying time until Germ Rubstov is ready???

 

He is a very good defensive forward but there is not much more to his game after that in terms of point production.    His offensive instincts are just not there in terms of NHL production.   If he were a 3C I would be happy and think that he would fill an important role on a rising team.   But to count on him as a legit 2C is just not going to work moving forward.

[flyerrod]

On 2/19/2017 at 5:32 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Right now, if I'm Hextall and Hakstol, at the end of the season, I have the year end interview and this is what I tell him: focus on winning faceoffs because you're going to fill the Primeau role on this club. Don't worry about offense, worry about face offs and being physical.

3rd Line center he excels at. He might be slightly overpaid but that is where he belongs.

 

[King Knut]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:20 AM, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I agree this guy is following in the same realm JVR did for me. I think he has skill it's his effort/heart i question most times.

 

He just doesn't give it his all and doesn't use his size advantage enough...so like JVR i'm leaning towards he needs a trade maybe to wake him up.

 

With that said i don't want to just trade him just for the sake of trading him...i'd like a better return than a Luke Schenn coming back.

 

 

Yes.  Let's trade the most effective center on the team to wake him up so he can be more effective for someone else.  Perfect.

 

Right now Coots is playing better than Giroux.  That's play driving, and scoring and defensively.  

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE TEAM.  

 

I know everyone seems to have this vision of Couturier dogging it or being lazy or not having any heart, but I'm honestly here to tell you that for every minute of every game NOT on the power play, Couturier is your team's most effective forward at every other aspect of the game.  

 

If you can guarantee that the Flyers will spend 3/4 of the game on the PP, then by all means trade him.  But in the mean time, he's the ONLY FLYER DOING ANYTHING 5 on 5 (75-90% of the game) and he has been for quite a while.  

 

Let's move on please?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Yes.  Let's trade the most effective center on the team to wake him up so he can be more effective for someone else.  Perfect.

 

Right now Coots is playing better than Giroux.  That's play driving, and scoring and defensively.  

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE TEAM.  

 

I know everyone seems to have this vision of Couturier dogging it or being lazy or not having any heart, but I'm honestly here to tell you that for every minute of every game NOT on the power play, Couturier is your team's most effective forward at every other aspect of the game.  

 

If you can guarantee that the Flyers will spend 3/4 of the game on the PP, then by all means trade him.  But in the mean time, he's the ONLY FLYER DOING ANYTHING 5 on 5 (75-90% of the game) and he has been for quite a while.  

 

Let's move on please?

 

I got by what i see not numbers. He gives minimal effort a lot of the time and shies away from contact and the dirty areas. You don't have to agree i'm ok with it. Because i certainly don't agree with your opinion.

[King Knut]

On 2/20/2017 at 9:23 AM, murraycraven said:

 

 

and that expectation is absolutely correct.  However, I think we all know that Couts is miscast as a 2nd line C.   Just hope Ronny sees this as well....  maybe it is just buying time until Germ Rubstov is ready???

 

He is a very good defensive forward but there is not much more to his game after that in terms of point production.    His offensive instincts are just not there in terms of NHL production.   If he were a 3C I would be happy and think that he would fill an important role on a rising team.   But to count on him as a legit 2C is just not going to work moving forward.

 

You do realize that he's either had an assist or has been on the ice for almost every even strength goal in the past few weeks, right?  

 

Simply put, the guy has been the best even strength forward for a while now.  

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I got by what i see not numbers. He gives minimal effort a lot of the time and shies away from contact and the dirty areas. You don't have to agree i'm ok with it. Because i certainly don't agree with your opinion.

 

I'm not sharing an opinion.  What I'm talking about is LITERALLY absent of opinion.

He produces at even strength more consistently than anyone on the team right now.  That's just a fact.  

 

I'm drawing no opinions from this, I'm just trying to inform yours.  

 

If I were sharing my opinion, it would be that I don't give a rat's ass if he goes into the corners because I don't think they should be dumping and cycling at all to begin with.  He's tall, that doesn't make him a power forward.  Being down low is absolutely the worst place for a Center with strong defensive responsibilities to be. Those are opinions.  

 

This is a terrible even strength team.  They pretty much only score on the PP.  But if they do manage to score even strength, the chances are very high that Couturier was involved somehow.  

 

That combined with how few goals against are scored when he's on the ice make him the best forward at even strength on this team.  That's my opinion... but then again, I'm basing that on goals.  Which 99times out of 100 are what they base the winner of the game on. 

 

He's not so good on the PP compared to the other top 6 forwards on the team.  That's also my opinion and all in all I don't think he should play on the PP for a variety of reasons, which include the fact that he's playing more shorthanded minutes and that he's the guy you want hopping on the ice as your PP expires.  

 

Facts however are that this team is terrible at even strength and that they would have won EXACTLY ZERO GAMES since January 26th without Couturier's scoring at even strength.  

 

I know you see what you see on the ice as the game is played, and I know I definitely something different, but as long as the game is still won by scoring goals, what you're seeing isn't really representative of anything that actually matters.   

 

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

32 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

You do realize that he's either had an assist or has been on the ice for almost every even strength goal in the past few weeks, right?  

 

Simply put, the guy has been the best even strength forward for a while now.  

 

 

You mean for all 5 of those  ES goals this team has mustered over they past few weeks?   Lol...

 

True Sniper!

[King Knut]

11 hours ago, flyerrod said:

3rd Line center he excels at. He might be slightly overpaid but that is where he belongs.

 

 

Again... and I don't know how to state this more clearly.  NO ONE ON THIS TEAM IS PRODUCING AT EVEN STRENGTH better than Sean Couturier.   

 

Not Giroux, Not Simmonds, Not Schenn, Not Konecney, Not Read, and Not Raffl.

The only one close is Voracek, but Voracek has more goals scored against him, so it's a net loss.  

 

The problem isn't that Couturier isn't offensively strong.  The problem is this team is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE at even strength.  

Until they can guarantee that they'll be on the PP for 75% of the game, Couturier is actually their best asset.  

[OccamsRazor]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm not sharing an opinion.  What I'm talking about is LITERALLY absent of opinion.

He produces at even strength more consistently than anyone on the team right now.  That's just a fact.  

 

I'm drawing no opinions from this, I'm just trying to inform yours.  

 

If I were sharing my opinion, it would be that I don't give a rat's ass if he goes into the corners because I don't think they should be dumping and cycling at all to begin with.  He's tall, that doesn't make him a power forward.  Being down low is absolutely the worst place for a Center with strong defensive responsibilities to be. Those are opinions.  

 

This is a terrible even strength team.  They pretty much only score on the PP.  But if they do manage to score even strength, the chances are very high that Couturier was involved somehow.  

 

That combined with how few goals against are scored when he's on the ice make him the best forward at even strength on this team.  That's my opinion... but then again, I'm basing that on goals.  Which 99times out of 100 are what they base the winner of the game on. 

 

He's not so good on the PP compared to the other top 6 forwards on the team.  That's also my opinion and all in all I don't think he should play on the PP for a variety of reasons, which include the fact that he's playing more shorthanded minutes and that he's the guy you want hopping on the ice as your PP expires.  

 

Facts however are that this team is terrible at even strength and that they would have won EXACTLY ZERO GAMES since January 26th without Couturier's scoring at even strength.  

 

I know you see what you see on the ice as the game is played, and I know I definitely something different, but as long as the game is still won by scoring goals, what you're seeing isn't really representative of anything that actually matters.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah where would they be without his 17 points. 3 more than Gudas.

[King Knut]

9 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

You mean for all 5 of those  ES goals this team has mustered over they past few weeks?   Lol...

 

True Sniper!

 

Right, it's funny right?  But the point is, HE's the one doing it!  More than Jake, Simmer, Schenn and ESPECIALLY Giroux.

The point is, it's utterly ridiculous to decide trading Couturier will solve a damn thing.  

It will actually only serve to make this team worse.  Like no wins in a month worse.   

 

If the rest of the team improves and Couts' numbers don't rise with them, then we can talk... but to suggest that getting rid of him will solve anything to TRULY just not be paying attention.  

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Yeah were would they be without his 17 points. 3 more than Gudas.

 

Stop being such a brat and just admit you're wrong?  

Either that or you just don't know jack about hockey.  This blow hard philly fan "I'm right all the time now shut up" crap is getting pretty damn old.  

 

[murraycraven]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Right, it's funny right?  But the point is, HE's the one doing it!  More than Jake, Simmer, Schenn and ESPECIALLY Giroux.

The point is, it's utterly ridiculous to decide trading Couturier will solve a damn thing.  

It will actually only serve to make this team worse.  Like no wins in a month worse.   

 

If the rest of the team improves and Couts' numbers don't rise with them, then we can talk... but to suggest that getting rid of him will solve anything to TRULY just not be paying attention.  

 

He is doing it more lately yes but not overall.   If you take segments of any player and focus on that you can arrive at all different results.

 

For example, Couts is the PP QB for the second unit correct?   Guess how many points he has on the PP all year?    2!

 

I once saw Jody Shelley score a few games in a row too?   Does that make him great?   No... You are judged overall and FWIW I have defended Couts forever on this board....   Just ask @hf101 and @icehole!

 

He is better suited for a 3C in the NHL.   That is my point...   Not sure why you are getting your knickers in a bunch.   

 

Take a deep breath... Things will be okay.   Just a game...

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

He is doing it more lately yes but not overall.   If you take segments of any player and focus on that you can arrive at all different results.

 

For example, Couts is the PP QB for the second unit correct?   Guess how many points he has on the PP all year?    2!

 

I once saw Jody Shelley score a few games in a row too?   Does that make him great?   No... You are judged overall and FWIW I have defended Couts forever on this board....   Just ask @hf101 and @icehole!

 

He is better suited for a 3C in the NHL.   That is my point...   Not sure why you are getting your knickers in a bunch.   

 

Take a deep breath... Things will be okay.   Just a game...

 

 

He's terrible on the PP.  the only time i've mentioned the PP and Couturier is to say that he's bad on it and shouldn't be the 2nd PP C.  

 

But overall... throughout the year.   Consistently, if you look at the actual goals for and actual goals against, when Couturier has been on the ice, he's the best player at even strength.  Throughout the season.  Go ahead.  Check.  

[murraycraven]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

He's terrible on the PP.  the only time i've mentioned the PP and Couturier is to say that he's bad on it and shouldn't be the 2nd PP C.  

 

But overall... throughout the year.   Consistently, if you look at the actual goals for and actual goals against, when Couturier has been on the ice, he's the best player at even strength.  Throughout the season.  Go ahead.  Check.  

 

 

Yet he is still a minus player so now we are saying he is a better smelling piece of trash than the rest of the trash heap?  

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

He is better suited for a 3C in the NHL.   That is my point...   Not sure why you are getting your knickers in a bunch.   

 

Take a deep breath... Things will be okay.   Just a game...

 

My knickers aren't in a bunch.  I just understand basic math.  

 

It's stubborn thickheadedness that gets me frustrated.  And that's a bigger problem than just a game.  

 

Some people (and I don't have time to determine if you're among them or not) are all "BURN THE WITCH!" over Couturier and I'm simply trying to explain that maybe that just doesn't make any sense.

 

I could see if you assumed my CAPS were angry CAPS, you might think I was excited... but think of them more as ENUNCIATION.  These are words I think are important to understanding this basic lesson for this class of zealots.  

 

And frankly, I think the assertion that it's just a game is ridiculous.  It's literally a billion dollar business.  It's not a bunch of kids at a backyard rink.  It's a multi-national industry.  

 

 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Yet he is still a minus player so now we are saying he is a better smelling piece of trash than the rest of the trash heap?  

 

 

 

Now you're getting it!  

 

That's exactly that I'm saying.  Why are people complaining about the piece of trash that's actually playing better than all the other pieces of trash in 90% of the game?  

 

All in all it suggests to me that he's simply not the problem and whipping that particular scapegoat (mixed metaphors I know) is kinda silly.  

[AJgoal]

48 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Consistently, if you look at the actual goals for and actual goals against, when Couturier has been on the ice, he's the best player at even strength.  Throughout the season.  Go ahead.  Check.  

 

This first table is 5 on 5 point scoring. Couturier is, in fact, 5th on the team in 5 on 5 points, and second in goals.

 

The second table breaks it down by points/60 minutes played, in which Couturier performs even better, 4th, 3rd if you ignore Leier's cup of coffee.

 

Here is where it starts to break down, though. While Couturier in the past has been very good defensively, this year, he's not doing so well. This table shows his goals for percentage (ie, team goals for when on the ice vs. goals against). Here, he's 14th out of 23 players:

 

EDIT: NM, I was reading this wrong. Gimme a few to revise. Also, I apologize for being a jerk. Not how I like to be and especially bad form when I'm wrong.

 

Edit 2: The original table 3 I posted is TEAMMATE GF% when the player is off the ice. Here is the GF% when the player is on the ice. Couturier ranks fifth, third among forwards:

 

 

[murraycraven]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Now you're getting it!  

 

That's exactly that I'm saying.  Why are people complaining about the piece of trash that's actually playing better than all the other pieces of trash in 90% of the game?  

 

All in all it suggests to me that he's simply not the problem and whipping that particular scapegoat (mixed metaphors I know) is kinda silly.  

 

 

I have never once said he is the problem.   For Christ's sake I defend the guy more than nearly anyone....

 

 

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

I have never once said he is the problem.  

 

 

Then i wasn't talking to you

[brelic]

31 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Right, it's funny right?  But the point is, HE's the one doing it!  More than Jake, Simmer, Schenn and ESPECIALLY Giroux.

The point is, it's utterly ridiculous to decide trading Couturier will solve a damn thing.  

It will actually only serve to make this team worse.  Like no wins in a month worse.   

 

If the rest of the team improves and Couts' numbers don't rise with them, then we can talk... but to suggest that getting rid of him will solve anything to TRULY just not be paying attention.  

 

Two things I'd like to add.

 

The first is that my original intent in starting this thread was to suggest scratching him for a few games. Just to see how the team reacts. I realize it's a hard thing to do when he's not performing particularly poorly, and the truth is that Hakstol is very unlikely to scratch him 'just for shits and giggles.' It's not a punishment for Couturier, and it's not an attack on him saying he's the problem - it's just trying something different. See how the team speed changes, how they react, and whether or not it was simply a coincidence that they had their 10 game winning streak when Couturier was out, and started losing when he returned. 

 

The second thing I would add is that I've also advocated trading Couturier. Again, not because I think he's a 'problem' but because he might be able to fetch us something we sorely need. He's emerged as a 3C in the NHL and I don't think he'll be any better than that. He's a poor man's Jordan Staal. So while he does a lot of great things defensively, I do think we can replace most of that with someone cheaper and faster, likely from within the organization. 

 

He's 24 with just under 400 games of NHL experience. I think that's a fair sample size to determine that his room to grow offensively is shrinking because of his age (peak statistical performance of NHL players happens at an average of 23-24 years old), and he's basically a 3C who will hit in the 30-40 point range with maybe a career year in the mid-40s if all the stars are aligned. Again, every team needs someone like that, but I wouldn't consider him 'special' enough to be untouchable.