B. Schenn traded to Blues for J. Lehtera and a Conditional 1st in 2018

[brelic]

On 2017-06-30 at 6:18 PM, OccamsRazor said:

Dear God 24 pages and going......

 

 

Haha is that The IT Crowd? Love that show!

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

This. Plain and simple facts.

 

Chances are very good that Schenn would have been playing bottom six mins 5v5 this year. He did it for a good chunk of last year, and that was before Patrick and Lindblom coming in vying for top six spots. I don't hate Schenn, but he simply was not a solid enough 5v5 player. In fact, he was downright awful at 5s most of the time, which made Hakstol choose to play him on the 4th for stretches of the year last season.

 

It has been mentioned a bunch of times now, but Schenn's pp production really has far less to do with his own ability and far more to do with the G/V/G trio feeding him pucks or firing at the net at opportune times. Moreover, Simmonds being who he is on the pp, Schenn was effectively the least worrisome player on the line 100% of the time. In the end, he managed to be opportunistic with the situation, mostly because the other team was burning their guns on the far more deadly other four players on the line.

 

I don't think it will be hard to replace his production on the pp. Someone will step up to fill his shoes, precisely because his shoes are really not very big at all.

 

In my view, not only was trade solidly in our favour, it was perfect timing on the part of Hextall to get the trade done now. This opens the door to someone who has solid 5v5 and pp skill to take the spot and start getting experience. Whether that's Lindblom or Patrick or Konecny or Weal or whoever else -- bring it on. As it stands, Schenn may have been bumped from the pp anyway by one of those guys, at which point he would finish next season with awful pt totals and become a far less valuable trade chip.

[fanaticV3.0]

1 minute ago, elmatus said:

 

Chances are very good that Schenn would have been playing bottom six mins 5v5 this year. He did it for a good chunk of last year, and that was before Patrick and Lindblom coming in vying for top six spots. I don't hate Schenn, but he simply was not a solid enough 5v5 player. In fact, he was downright awful at 5s most of the time, which made Hakstol choose to play him on the 4th for stretches of the year last season.

 

It has been mentioned a bunch of times now, but Schenn's pp production really has far less to do with his own ability and far more to do with the G/V/G trio feeding him pucks or firing at the net at opportune times. Moreover, Simmonds being who he is on the pp, Schenn was effectively the least worrisome player on the line 100% of the time. In the end, he managed to be opportunistic with the situation, mostly because the other team was burning their guns on the far more deadly other four players on the line.

 

I don't think it will be hard to replace his production on the pp. Someone will step up to fill his shoes, precisely because his shoes are really not very big at all.

 

In my view, not only was trade solidly in our favour, it was perfect timing on the part of Hextall to get the trade done now. This opens the door to someone who has solid 5v5 and pp skill to take the spot and start getting experience. Whether that's Lindblom or Patrick or Konecny or Weal or whoever else -- bring it on. As it stands, Schenn may have been bumped from the pp anyway by one of those guys, at which point he would finish next season with awful pt totals and become a far less valuable trade chip.

 

#2 in goals scored last year and #3 points – and this team wasn't exactly lighting the lamp either. You are casually throwing around names like it's a given any one of them can replace his production when frankly all four of them are unproven commodities. Patrick, at least according to the experts, is very likely to do well, but the other three? I think I would've preferred not to put the cart before the horse and wait until the have proven something at this level before getting rid of our 25-year-old third best points guy on the team.

[vis]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

 

Chances are very good that Schenn would have been playing bottom six mins 5v5 this year. He did it for a good chunk of last year, and that was before Patrick and Lindblom coming in vying for top six spots. I don't hate Schenn, but he simply was not a solid enough 5v5 player. In fact, he was downright awful at 5s most of the time, which made Hakstol choose to play him on the 4th for stretches of the year last season.

 

It has been mentioned a bunch of times now, but Schenn's pp production really has far less to do with his own ability and far more to do with the G/V/G trio feeding him pucks or firing at the net at opportune times. Moreover, Simmonds being who he is on the pp, Schenn was effectively the least worrisome player on the line 100% of the time. In the end, he managed to be opportunistic with the situation, mostly because the other team was burning their guns on the far more deadly other four players on the line.

 

I don't think it will be hard to replace his production on the pp. Someone will step up to fill his shoes, precisely because his shoes are really not very big at all.

 

In my view, not only was trade solidly in our favour, it was perfect timing on the part of Hextall to get the trade done now. This opens the door to someone who has solid 5v5 and pp skill to take the spot and start getting experience. Whether that's Lindblom or Patrick or Konecny or Weal or whoever else -- bring it on. As it stands, Schenn may have been bumped from the pp anyway by one of those guys, at which point he would finish next season with awful pt totals and become a far less valuable trade chip.

As is customary for me, let me preface this by saying I am not a Schenn apologist at all.

 

A lot has been made of Schenn's 5v5 play and cite his Corsi last year in support of that.  Fair enough.  However, the team's 5v5 woes extend well beyond Schenn.  And if you look at analytics other than Corsi last year (e.g., GF% and its variants), you would see that Schenn actually doesn't look bad compared to others on the team.  For the record, for those who like Corsi, Schenn's ratings for each of the two years prior to last weren't that bad compared to the rest of the team.

 

I also think it's a little naieve to state that it will not be hard to replace the top PP goal scorer on the team.  First, doing what Schenn does on the PP is not simply the result of being fed pucks.  He has to get himself into scoring position and play in areas a lot of other players don't.

 

You don't think teams weren't paying attention on the PP to a player who led the league in PP goals?  I find that hard to believe.  

 

I do think the Flyers are going to have trouble replacing his PP production unless the new assistant figures out a way to revamp the PP.  

 

Also, I highly doubt the top PP goal scorer would have been replaced by a rookie.  If anything, maybe the rookies would have gotten a look on the second unit.

 

My displeasure with the trade is no so much that they traded Schenn, but once again they are kicking the can down the road towards being a contender.  Contrary to what others believe, I think Schenn could have been a contributor now and in the future.  He is still only 25 (I don't understand why some are quick to disregard his age).  Or, if not, they could have acquired an actual NHL player rather than draft picks that may not ever measure up to Schenn's production, let alone crack an NHL lineup.

[mojo1917]

12 minutes ago, vis said:

You don't think teams weren't paying attention on the PP to a player who led the league in PP goals?  I find that hard to believe.

 

I don't actually, I think teams paid attention to Giroux, Simmonds, Ghost and Jake... in that order before they thought about Schenn.

Schenn made good on a fraction of myriad opportunities on the power play, I would anecdotally state that I remember far more times where, the gaping net presented itself to Brayden and he stepped on his crank, rather than score.  If he were better he'd have had 10 more goals, easily.  

He's a C+/B- player, he's not that fast, he's kind of bad a defence, he killed nearly every line he was on... though he did seem to have good chemistry with 14. I don't think he'll be able to keep up with Tarasenko... at all. Hextall dumped him while he was worth something, we saw him hit his ceiling, which wasn't bad, but also wasn't like we traded 25-year-old Patrick Kane either..  He's been in the league long enough to what he is...same goes for Couturier, unless they figure out some awesome new PEDs for those guys to take they are pretty well established. Schenn will get his 40 -50 points if the situation is right. I'll take what's behind door # 2 rather than commit to years of meh and watching him wreck every line he plays on.

I don't get the gnashing of teeth and pounding of keyboard that this move seems to be causing people.  

 

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I don't actually, I think teams paid attention to Giroux, Simmonds, Ghost and Jake... in that order before they thought about Schenn.

Schenn made good on a fraction of myriad opportunities on the power play, I would anecdotally state that I remember far more times where, the gaping net presented itself to Brayden and he stepped on his crank, rather than score.  If he were better he'd have had 10 more goals, easily.  

He's a C+/B- player, he's not that fast, he's kind of bad a defence, he killed nearly every line he was on... though he did seem to have good chemistry with 14. I don't think he'll be able to keep up with Tarasenko... at all. Hextall dumped him while he was worth something, we saw him hit his ceiling, which wasn't bad, but also wasn't like we traded 25-year-old Patrick Kane either..  He's been in the league long enough to what he is...same goes for Couturier, unless they figure out some awesome new PEDs for those guys to take they are pretty well established. Schenn will get his 40 -50 points if the situation is right. I'll take what's behind door # 2 rather than commit to years of meh and watching him wreck every line he plays on.

I don't get the gnashing of teeth and pounding of keyboard that this move seems to be causing people.  

 

Yeah. And we're really exaggerating the "led the league" thing. Three way tie AND was only one more than Simmonds.  And Giroux was tops in PP points.  We simply will not miss him. We got two firsts and replaced PEB with better. I honestly cannot fathom what isn't to like here. 

[pilldoc]

25 pages long ..... I think we have beaten this topic to death like a dead horse ....

 

 

I think we can all agree that there are 2 VERY distinct sides here.  Those who have no problem with Schenn being traded and those who think is was a dumb move.  No amount of discussion is going to persuade either side to changer their minds. 

 

We really won't know if this was a right move or not until the season is well underway.  Lets revisit this topic in November and December and then decide how this trade is working out. 

[ruxpin]

4 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

25 pages long ..... I think we have beaten this topic to death like a dead horse ....

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that there are 2 VERY distinct sides here.  Those who have no problem with Schenn being traded and those who think is was a dumb move.  No amount of discussion is going to persuade either side to changer their minds. 

 

We really won't know if this was a right move or not until the season is well underway.  Lets revisit this topic in November and December and then decide how this trade is working out. 

What are you, a UN Peacekeeper now? 

 

Shove your high road, pal! 

[pilldoc]

8 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

What are you, a UN Peacekeeper now? 

 

Shove your high road, pal! 

 

LOL ... tried to come back with something funny and whitty.....yeah I got nothin'.

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

LOL ... tried to come back with something funny and whitty.....yeah I got nothin'.

 

 

 

 

I suppose if one would shove a high road, it would come back out with skid marks

[vis]

44 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

25 pages long ..... I think we have beaten this topic to death like a dead horse ....

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that there are 2 VERY distinct sides here.  Those who have no problem with Schenn being traded and those who think is was a dumb move.  No amount of discussion is going to persuade either side to changer their minds. 

 

We really won't know if this was a right move or not until the season is well underway.  Lets revisit this topic in November and December and then decide how this trade is working out. 

I don't think the trade was "dumb" per se.  I get why the team might want to trade Schenn.  I am not sure of the return, especially when forced to take back Lehtera.  

 

I also think some folks who don't like Schenn or otherwise seek to justify the trade rely too heavily on Corsi (particularly last year's rating) and unfairly discount his past contributions and ignore potential future contributions.

 

My biggest gripe with the deal is that Hextall is again kicking that can down the road.  I probably would have been less bothered had Hextall acquired a useful player straight up for Schenn.  

 

I honestly hope the trade works out for the best.  Just not sure we will know for sure until three or four years down the line.  

[AJgoal]

The Flyers lost 59 goals from last season with the various departures from their roster. They added 14 between Filpulla and Lehtera (I'm only considering Filpulla's Tampa goals). even if you knock off the single goal scorers in McDonald (who could of course make an appearance), Leier (ditto), and Gordon, that's still a quarter of the team's overall production. I like the youth that's going to get injected this year, but it's completely fair to wonder if all of that lost production can be replaced.

[pilldoc]

16 minutes ago, vis said:

I don't think the trade was "dumb" per se.

 

Yeah, "dumb" may not have been my best choice of words ...maybe "severely questioning the move" is better vernacular.

17 minutes ago, vis said:

I am not sure of the return, especially when forced to take back Lehtera.  

 

There is no way I believe he was the center piece of the trade.  I think he had to be included if Hexy was going to make that jump.  Some have argued he will better than PEB.

 

19 minutes ago, vis said:

 I probably would have been less bothered had Hextall acquired a useful player straight up for Schenn.  

 

Again I see your POV and understand your concerns, which, by the way, are very valid.

 

20 minutes ago, vis said:

I also think some folks who don't like Schenn or otherwise seek to justify the trade rely too heavily on Corsi (particularly last year's rating) and unfairly discount his past contributions and ignore potential future contributions

 

Again, I understand that in todays NHL, statistics are a driving force in may aspects of the game.  However, I will counter with this.  It has been said, back when Schenn was first traded to the Flyers in that infamous trade, that he was "the best player NOT in the NHL."  That was now 6 year ago.  An honest quest  here, how much longer would you be willing to see if he improves or not?  I understand he is only 25, but he has now had 5 solid years with the Flyers (ok he split between the AHL and NHL during the 2012-13 season).   At some point management has to make a decision on him.  Will he or will he not be part of the future of this team.  They made their decision.  I wish him well.  I'm curious to see how he does in St. Louis.

 

29 minutes ago, vis said:

Just not sure we will know for sure until three or four years down the line.  

 

As far as the trading up to select Frost, I agree.  However, I think we could see the results of this trade as early as this year .....

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

I think we can all agree that there are 2 VERY distinct sides here.  Those who have no problem with Schenn being traded and those who think is was a dumb move. 

 

 

Sounds like this thread novel needs a poll?? To late for one?? A simple do you like the trade or not will work.........

[vis]

29 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

There is no way I believe he was the center piece of the trade.  I think he had to be included if Hexy was going to make that jump.  Some have argued he will better than PEB.

Don't disagree that he was the center piece of the trade from the Flyers perspective.  But his inclusion in the deal, including his contract, cannot be ignored.  Some seem to suggest that the deal was Schenn for two first rounders and Lehtera was merely a throw-in to make the $$ work.  I think that characterization is highly suspect.  It doesn't make sense to agree to two first rounders for Schenn and then agree to take back Lehtera's contract without extracting even more.  A portion of the return from STL has to be attributable to the Flyers taking on Lehtera's contract.

 

As bad as I thought PEB was, I am not confident that Lehtera will be all that better.  But for that contract, he better be.

 

29 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

It has been said, back when Schenn was first traded to the Flyers in that infamous trade, that he was "the best player NOT in the NHL."  That was now 6 year ago.  An honest quest  here, how much longer would you be willing to see if he improves or not?

Are you saying you do not think he's improved since entering the league?  Your question seems to imply that.  I certainly think he already has improved and has potential to continue to improve.  Now, I don't think he will become what some thought he would at the time he was drafted.  But he's still a productive player with the potential to keep improving.  Some seem to think he's done maturing as a player.

  

29 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

However, I think we could see the results of this trade as early as this year.

I assume you're suggesting that Schenn's departure was addition by subtraction, or at the least that his production won't be missed.  Disagree there.

[ruxpin]

29 minutes ago, vis said:

 I certainly think he already has improved and has potential to continue to improve.  Now, I don't think he will become what some thought he would at the time he was drafted.  But he's still a productive player with the potential to keep improving.  Some seem to think he's done maturing as a player.

For whatever it's worth, I think this is at heart of where you and I disagree on this. 

 

I don't think he has. At all. It's not corsi for me. The weird thing is that I can actually wade my way through actuarial tables but most often need someone to explain corsi to me. I think it was Broadstreethockey that had a pretty good write up explaining how he was horrible. Might have been Bleacher Report. But I'm often hesitant about someone else's explanation of things. 

 

For me, it's simply the eye test and evidence.  He plays a good string of games here and there but otherwise floats and crushes lines he's on. I really don't think he's a very smart player. It's not just drive - - which I think he lacks. It's that I think he's a pretty dumb player. 

 

All I mean by evidence is the way he was bounced all over the lineup. Both lines and positions. And nothing stuck and little worked. He cannot win faceoffs, he doesn't create or pass very well, his shot is meh (he likes his one timer which rarely works), doesn't think the defensive end of center very well, etc.  I just think that based on extended time on the fourth line and his bouncing all over, the organization doesn't think all that much of him. Hakstol anyway. 

 

He's an opportunist on the power play (more compliment than insult) and that's about it.  St Louis gave up two first round picks because they're under the delusion he's a first line center. That's so incredibly laughable it's termination worthy.   

 

I think it was actually a first round for Schenn and a first round to take Lehtera. But to say it was "we'll give you two firsts for Schenn, but you have to take Lehtera" is pretty much the same thing. One could argue semantics, but it's distinction without difference. 

 

I know you're not really defending Schenn, but I do think the heart of this is a big difference in the perception of his value.  I don't think he warrants a first round pick. Just being honest. The fact we got a second and their 2C is going to be our 4C makes me giddy. 

 

But, we disagree on his value, so the rest becomes difficult to agree on. 

 

Just my long winded "agree to disagree," but just thinking we'd end up agreeing on a little more if we were closer here. 

 

I think we've seen what he is. I'm honestly not impressed. I wish him well, but I think he gets Armstrong fired. 

[vis]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

For me, it's simply the eye test and evidence.  He plays a good string of games here and there but otherwise floats and crushes lines he's on. I really don't think he's a very smart player. It's not just drive - - which I think he lacks. It's that I think he's a pretty dumb player.

Agree with this.  He's streaky and can look very good at times and then disappear for stretches.  It's the good stretches that make you (well, not you) hopeful he can develop into that player on a consistent basis.  I also agree that he's not a very smart hockey player.  It's why he doesn't succeed at center.  Dumb must run in his family.

 

I agree that he's not a first line center.  But I kind of feel like Tarasenko plays the role of center in terms of generating offense.  So Schenn really might not be counted on in the same way other centers are.

 

Getting Lehtera should not make you giddy at all.  He's a zilch.

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, vis said:

I kind of feel like Tarasenko plays the role of center in terms of generating offense

That's definitely something to consider. 

 

I don't know until we see it, but I'm suspicious that Schenn isn't fast enough (or smart enough) to play with him. 

 

And LMAO @ "dumb must run in his family." 

 

He'll be overpaid, clearly, but I'm okay with Lehtera as fourth line center.  I have a suspicion that they may try to put him on wing on the 3rd line. I wouldn't be as happy with that. 

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Are you saying you do not think he's improved since entering the league?  Your question seems to imply that.  I certainly think he already has improved and has potential to continue to improve.  Now, I don't think he will become what some thought he would at the time he was drafted.  But he's still a productive player with the potential to keep improving.  Some seem to think he's done maturing as a player.

 

Maybe I should ask...what is his ceiling and how long do you go in order for him to reach that ceiling.  Lets look at his contemporaries i the same draft years.  Tavares (#1 overall) greatly better than Schenn.  Do you take Schenn over Duchene (#3 overall) or how about Kadri (#7 overall).  I'll go one step better how about O'Reilly (#33 overall).  All those players, except Tavares have very similar numbers to Schenn.  Maybe I'm making your point, maybe I'm not.  I guess, what I am asking is, for being a top 10 draft pick, at what point does he top out?

 

I guess I look at that key word "potential" By definition - having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.  The future is now for Schenn.  He has played in the league for 5 years now.  We are close to the point of what you see is what you get.  Is he good player, absolutely, but he is by far from what he was advertised years ago in the mantra of of "best hockey player not in NHL."   For a #6 pick overall, don't you expect something more by this time in his career?  

 

As I mentioned above, lets look at fellow players drafted in 2009.  (I've add Coots because he is often maligned too)

 

	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
Tavares	344	151	184	335	180
Duchene	353	109	159	268	83
O'Reilly	334	92	162	254	36
Kadri	357	105	134	239	286
Schenn	370	97	130	227	181
Courturier	339	57	107	164	146

 

 

Yes Tavares is head and shoulders above everyone else but Schenn is 5 on that list.  Why is that?  He has played the most games yet has the fewest points.  I have Coots in there strictly as comparison because he is age 24 vs Schenn age 25. 

So what is Schenn's ceiling and how long are you willing to weight for him to reach it, if ever?  As I have stated before, I am non-committal on the trade.  I see both the good and the bad.   There are valid points to the argument on both sides.

 

1 hour ago, vis said:

Now, I don't think he will become what some thought he would at the time he was drafted.

 

1 hour ago, vis said:

He's streaky and can look very good at times and then disappear for stretches.  It's the good stretches that make you (well, not you) hopeful he can develop into that player on a consistent basis.  I also agree that he's not a very smart hockey player.  It's why he doesn't succeed at center.

 

I think you have answered your own question here.  IMO, and I can be very wrong about this.  If I read all of your responses correctly, you are more upset about the return than the actual deal itself, even though you believe Schenn has the "potential" to be more productive.  If that is the case, I think you are justified with your concerns.

Again like I said above, lets' revisit this topic in a few months and see how the Flyers are doing scoring wise with out Schenn and let's see how Schenn is doing, probably playing the 1C position with the Blues.  Until then, everything is pure speculation.

 

Very good discussion, Vis. Thanks!

[caluso]

7 hours ago, vis said:

Don't disagree that he was the center piece of the trade from the Flyers perspective.  But his inclusion in the deal, including his contract, cannot be ignored.  Some seem to suggest that the deal was Schenn for two first rounders and Lehtera was merely a throw-in to make the $$ work.  I think that characterization is highly suspect.  It doesn't make sense to agree to two first rounders for Schenn and then agree to take back Lehtera's contract without extracting even more.  A portion of the return from STL has to be attributable to the Flyers taking on Lehtera's contract.

 

As bad as I thought PEB was, I am not confident that Lehtera will be all that better.  But for that contract, he better be.

 

Are you saying you do not think he's improved since entering the league?  Your question seems to imply that.  I certainly think he already has improved and has potential to continue to improve.  Now, I don't think he will become what some thought he would at the time he was drafted.  But he's still a productive player with the potential to keep improving.  Some seem to think he's done maturing as a player.

  

I assume you're suggesting that Schenn's departure was addition by subtraction, or at the least that his production won't be missed.  Disagree there.

 

[caluso]

7 hours ago, ruxpin said:

For whatever it's worth, I think this is at heart of where you and I disagree on this. 

 

I don't think he has. At all. It's not corsi for me. The weird thing is that I can actually wade my way through actuarial tables but most often need someone to explain corsi to me. I think it was Broadstreethockey that had a pretty good write up explaining how he was horrible. Might have been Bleacher Report. But I'm often hesitant about someone else's explanation of things. 

 

For me, it's simply the eye test and evidence.  He plays a good string of games here and there but otherwise floats and crushes lines he's on. I really don't think he's a very smart player. It's not just drive - - which I think he lacks. It's that I think he's a pretty dumb player. 

 

All I mean by evidence is the way he was bounced all over the lineup. Both lines and positions. And nothing stuck and little worked. He cannot win faceoffs, he doesn't create or pass very well, his shot is meh (he likes his one timer which rarely works), doesn't think the defensive end of center very well, etc.  I just think that based on extended time on the fourth line and his bouncing all over, the organization doesn't think all that much of him. Hakstol anyway. 

 

He's an opportunist on the power play (more compliment than insult) and that's about it.  St Louis gave up two first round picks because they're under the delusion he's a first line center. That's so incredibly laughable it's termination worthy.   

 

I think it was actually a first round for Schenn and a first round to take Lehtera. But to say it was "we'll give you two firsts for Schenn, but you have to take Lehtera" is pretty much the same thing. One could argue semantics, but it's distinction without difference. 

 

I know you're not really defending Schenn, but I do think the heart of this is a big difference in the perception of his value.  I don't think he warrants a first round pick. Just being honest. The fact we got a second and their 2C is going to be our 4C makes me giddy. 

 

But, we disagree on his value, so the rest becomes difficult to agree on. 

 

Just my long winded "agree to disagree," but just thinking we'd end up agreeing on a little more if we were closer here. 

 

I think we've seen what he is. I'm honestly not impressed. I wish him well, but I think he gets Armstrong fired. 

I think your post is spot on. I don't for a second understand the outrage over this trade. Let's not forget that Schenn was given every opportunity as a top 6 forward and wound up as a third line winger. That's right, a bottom 6 forward. Getting 2 number 1's for him was remarkable, a steal. Lehtera, as far as I am concerned, is completely irrelevant. The team really improved their prospect pool in jettisoning Schenn (yes, I am a believer in Frost) as they continue to build for the future. It remains to be seen if the team will be weakened by Schenn's absence, though I suspect not.

 

I commend Hextall for this trade. As I said in an earlier post, a good manager has to decide which employees move their organization forward and which do not. Hextall and Hakstol are invested in winning and simply lost faith in Schenn. Bottom line, they didn't view him as a true core member.. His play was wildly inconsistent as he went long stretches where he was hardly relevant or noticeable out there. Like you rightly said, I am basing this on what I saw - the eye test - and it is no surprise that the Corsi numbers support this. Even the most ardent Schenn supporters have to cede that point.

 

As for Schenn's power play prowess, it must be mentioned that the Flyers will be implementing a brand new system, with a brand new coach. Who is to say if Schenn would have been a good fit in it or not? What I can say is that the Flyers have been a maddeningly inconsistent team over the past few years and Schenn's disappearing acts contributed mightily to it. 

 

Good riddance!

[OccamsRazor]

7 hours ago, ruxpin said:

It's that I think he's a pretty dumb player.

 

Yes the polar opposite of Ivan.

[LegionOfDoom]

After finally getting to the last post of reading every post from the beginning as to not look over any posters point of view, what it comes down to is, we traded a known commodity for a Chance of a better commodity.

Only one person posted about Coots line with Weise and Schenn.

That was our best line towards the end of the year. Adding Fillpy and trading Streit, balanced our team.

That was the line I was hoping to see a full year with.

Our top 5 v 5 line center man was playing with two wingers that clicked and were scoring.

We lost that for this year. Schenn was good with Coots, not all your lines have to be meth lines.

That power forward game that line had, was hard to play against, slotted against other teams lines.

That was our even strength line that when the other two lines couldn't score, we at least had that power forward line that could contribute.

The idea that Schenn would block another roster player is an old myth as @Del Zotto says high to.

Hextall went on Record that he believes every year your team has to earn their starting job and internal competition is healthy for a team. No player had a spot given to him.

As long as you have cap space it doesn't matter where contracts get slotted in which line combination up and down the roster.

If Schenn is our best "4th line" player and Coots is there with him along with Weise and they're scoring goals, that's what counts. Not  on what line he scored it on.

Just because someone's a black belt doesn't mean he can kick your ass.

Those that don't like the trade are completely valid in Net loss. WE Have  Net Loss period.

Now those that favor the trade have also a valid point in that Schenn's unorthodox value was tricky to line up.

Though Schenn, Coots and Weise were a set piece that worked well together and not being able to play that "set" could cause some difficulties with the team.

Thus this year was a bad year for a trade in respects the pieces coming up where not situated as of yet.

We have a team on napkin that we think should be good, but there are going to be a few new pieces that we can't add to the knowledge base due to no history of our new parts.

Our knowledge base with Schenn and our team last year was that they for sure should of at least made the playoffs,  per the team we had on opening night. the fact we had that winning streak could of been seen as an "over achieving" but none the less even without that we could of made the playoffs.

At the end am I happy we didn't make the playoffs... ya, but not at first, but look at what we got out of it now..second overall pick (would of been lost to the first to Jersey had he not been injured). I like Nico for his tenacity but I think Nolan is the better player.

So what we have here is a similar situation for our new year in Schenn, as in our loss of him with how our season went.

We lost a known valuable commodity for an unknown situation (this is a fact that cannot be disputed either way).

But we are now sitting in a "draft lottery" position for the season not knowing where we're

really gonna be at the end of the season but we have a chance, a "2.1%" chance at something great this year, but still a chance.

 

So unfortunately  (or maybe fortunately) we will not know any answers as facts. until this season takes place and the: For Favor of the trade posters are right in regards to were we are as a team and draft picks was worth the trade in 2018.

Or the Not in Favor as we see our window being pushed back even further, for the chance at more "magic beans" in our pouch.

 

 

[RJ8812]

Complaining about getting Lehtera in this trade is like complaining about getting Ryan Dingle in the Pronger trade 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

28 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

Complaining about getting Lehtera in this trade is like complaining about getting Ryan Dingle in the Pronger trade 

 

Except the draft picks the Flyers got are hardly a Chris Pronger, nor is there any guarantee they ever will be.

 

Pronger's eventual long term injury that derailed his career aside, when the Flyers made that particular trade, at that particular time, they were definitely in the 'win' column.

 

Comparing receiving a Pronger and Dingle to receiving draft picks that haven't amounted to anything yet and Lehtera is not even close to being logical.

Now...should those draft picks amount to something more than flashes in the pan or short term success, THEN Flyers fans can dance in the street over "unloading Schenn for those great players".

 

Till then, this is still a wait n see situation and the bottom line is Schenn > Lehtera if we are talking about useful players NOW.