B. Schenn traded to Blues for J. Lehtera and a Conditional 1st in 2018

[vis]

5 minutes ago, Philly29 said:

I am getting great vibes from Laberge, really think he is going to be a steal.

Thought he had an off year after some injuries, or am I thinking of someone else?

[Philly29]

4 minutes ago, vis said:

Thought he had an off year after some injuries, or am I thinking of someone else?

I think he had concussion issues.

[vis]

Thinking about the Frost pick a little more.  Hextall has said that the Schenn trade came out of nowhere.  The Flyers next pick is #44.  Frost was a second/third round projection.  Maybe he was on the Flyers' board at #44.  When the Schenn trade came around, catching Hextall by surprise, maybe they just picked the player that they knew/liked the best based on who they thought would available around #44?  That's problematic if so.

 

Also, thinking about the trade itself.  I view this as Schenn for a #1 and STL giving us a #1 to take Lehtera.  So, I don't think it's accurate to characterize this as Schenn fetching two #1s.  Schenn fetched a single #1 in my mind.  The other #1 was inducement to take Lehtera.

[caluso]

2 hours ago, Philly29 said:

So getting two 1st round draft picks is not a good thing? I think you are way over valuing Schenn here.

I completely agree with you. The fact that Hextall was able to garner 2 number 1s for Schenn is remarkable. And, I must say, that I was ambivalent regarding Hextall before today. Not anymore!

 

Schenn is a decent player but It is obvious to everyone here, those that love the trade and those that hate the trade, that Schenn is not a great player. And, more importantly, his sample size is large enough to say  that he will never become one - he was never going to be part of the long term solution (Lord Stanley). So, if that is the case, why not move him.

 

It is really not about Lehtera versus Schenn, it is all about assembling players whom you believe in, whom you think will move the team forward, whom you think will help you win the Cup. Flyers management finally realized that Schenn is not such a player (admittedly, I have no idea what took them this long). Hextall should be praised for making this decision, it is what great managers do: rid themselves of employees who are not driving the company forward. 

 

By the way, I do not think the Flyers became "weaker" today as Tropical asserted. This is addition by subtraction. Not to mention that the future of the team looks much brighter with the additional influx of young talent.

 

PS. Couturier is next unless his play improves.

[Philly29]

17 minutes ago, caluso said:

PS. Couturier is next unless his play improves.

His late surge last year might of given him a reprieve

[Podein25]

So, 7 pages in, not having read every post, this is my contribution: does Ron Hextall know what "elite" hockey sense looks like? Does anyone, truly?

 

I'm going to give the late bloomer Frosty a chance. I think I've seen "elite" hockey sense, recognized it's features, so I will have time to judge for myself. 

 

As far as #44th ranked vs 27th taken I say: meh. The difference isn't necessarily big. And often way off, because people systematically under value hockey sense. See Zetterberg, H DET.

 

In sum, I'm completely untroubled by the reach, but still prepared to judge Hexy for it if he's wrong. Did they interview Frosty, perhaps at the combine? Anybody know?

[icehole]

6 hours ago, Philly29 said:

Why are you so caught up with Lehtera. The trade is about getting two 1st round picks as well as moving a player who was getting paid 5 mil a year to be an average does all things okay but nothing great type of player. Also he is as soft as ice cream....

 

We had to take salary back in Lehtera in order for this to work I would assume. Also Lehtera should be much easier to move around the line up than Schenn.

It's obvious you don't like schenn...thats why you don't want to see anyone else's side.  "Okay but nothing great".  I can agree with that for the most part, but wasn't he 1st in PP scoring in the league with a team that was bad at scoring goals?  To be first in the league at any offensive category is an accomplishment.  His 5 on 5 wasn't great.

 

"Soft as ice cream"  I don't know why you think that.  Besides Simmonds, he may have been the toughest flyer in the past 2 seasons.  He was the only one willing to throw a hit in the past 2 seasons.

 

I don't know much about the draft picks so I'll have to wait and see.  On the surface though, this trade doesn't look good.  It looks like one of Hexy's moves where he's trying to plan 5 years down the road instead of try to concentrate on the near future.

 

Only thing I'm happy about with this is maybe some of the young guys we always hear about will get a shot to make the team now.

[ruxpin]

9 hours ago, vis said:

Terrible trade.  Sorry.  I'm officially done with Hextall.  The kid they selected wasn't even a first round prospect.  The pick is top 10 protected next year, which is supposed to be a good draft.  No way the Blues finish in the top 10.  Really?  Trading a producing player for an 29 year old yet to save $800k on the cap and one year who had 7G and 22PTS last year?  Sorry.  Not a fan of this trade and I'm not even a Schenn fan.

I'm not a Lehtera fan, so I think short term the Blues actually improved on the ice. I actually don't see any scenario where the Blues miss the playoffs, let alone be in the top 10 (don't worry sports fans, the Blues will still do their annual choke).  [Edit:  I finished reading the thread.  I misunderstood the bolded above, so yeah, we're pretty much on the same wavelength there)

 

I don't hate Schenn, but his 5x5 play is about as bad as it gets. Two firsts and Lehtera for him? I'll take that every time. We will absolutely miss his power play production, no doubt, but I'm good. 

 

The Flyers are apparently all in on the youth movement. 

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, vis said:

Btw, Blues fans love this.  Simply because they got rid of Lehtera.

 

Tells you all you need to know.

 

I hope I am wrong, but this is pathetic.

 

Someone please tell me the rationale?

Sorry, I'm still on the first page of this thread and responding twice to you. 

 

There is a cap savings but it's really small so I agree that's not the rationale. 

 

It's a hockey move. Simply. Schenn is a liability 5v5. He really is. His advanced stats are just horrific. Like I wrote above, his PP points (goals) will be missed. But I'm wondering about even that because with a new PP coach maybe they think he won't be as effective in some new approach (given the increasing variety of ways he gets points on the PP, I don't think this is likely). 

 

So, we get Lehtera, who we clearly don't need, and two firsts. I'm already happy with this even with Lehtera, but this smells like flip to me. Either Lehtera or Couturier and one of the now extra firsts next year for a scoring winger or a goalie. 

 

I'm okay with the move if nothing more is coming, but I have a feeling we just created movable assets and a little more palatable cap cost to make a deal with another team. 

[AJgoal]

There was a twelve point cushion between the Blues and the Jets, so I don't see a likelihood of the Blues missing the playoffs next year. Injuries, Jake Allen being Jake Allen...these are things that could push their pick down into the teens, though. 

 

Ideally, I would have preferred to do a one to one swap of a player for Schenn as opposed to picking up yet more draft picks. Schenn for Schwartz maybe? The value's fine, but I think Hextall may have outthought himself here.

[murraycraven]

8 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

touche' ...you are correct .....

Well, so was Laughton too...

[ruxpin]

I'm on page two and this is driving me nuts because I remember it live on TV.

 

Has anyone yet corrected the fact that John Carlson was NOT 30th overall?

 

He was 27th.

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, vis said:

Schenn is 25 and still growing as a player.

 

I strongly disagree.  I think he's actually proven what he is and will stay that way until age diminishes even that.   He's a 50-something point player (this is good) who will score most of his points on the PP (okay, points are points) but is a liability on 5v5 (-13), doesn't play particularly smartly, and has never quite fit in anywhere.   He's simply lost on the center depth chart and isn't really good enough on wing to justify one of the top two lines.   And his liability on defense makes him out of place on the 3rd line.  And the 4th line doesn't make much sense.

 

I don't agree that he's growing as a player.  I think he's hit his plateau.  And he doesn't fit.   Trade him for some picks  that may or may not "fit" down the road.  

 

This post is about Schenn "growing" (or not), so I won't go into where Lehtera does or doesn't fit because I honestly have no idea.   But I'm okay with the Schenn side of the equation.    Again, I don't hate Schenn.   But the past couple seasons when we play the "set your lines" game, he's always kind of in the way.  Like I have "my" lines set up and suddenly realize, "crap, where the hell do I put Schenn?"

 

I think trading him creates a hole on the PP play and has absolutely no other effect on this team

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

who is Smarter?

 

My shoe.

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, hf101 said:

ha.

Maybe there is something else here that we aren't thinking about.  Maybe Lehtera and Flippula play well together?

but my guess here is the Blues asked Hextall what would it take to get B. Schenn and Hextall stated what he wanted 2 first round picks and the Blues countered with you have to take Lehtera too.

 

I think this is probably very close to exactly what happened.

[ruxpin]

7 hours ago, vis said:

That doesn't say I am done with the team, does it?

 

Well, now that you mention it, if you consume large quantities of beer and squint your eyes really hard...

[ruxpin]

7 hours ago, vis said:

I know.  My comment was tongue in cheek.  Tone doesn't always come across well.  Guess I should bump my emoticon game...

 

I thought your post was dripping with sarcasm, and it was clear you were saying it as tongue in cheek.  I don't understand the difficulty, actually.  

[flyercanuck]

 Losing Schenn hurts the team short term. Gaining 2-1st rounders has the potential to help long term. Yes it's just potential, but building through the draft is clearly Hextalls philosophy.

 

 He had Schenn in LA and Philly and obviously considers him expendable. I've never been on the "get rid of" side when it came to Brayden, but I'm fine with this deal...one step backward for hopefully two steps forward.

 

 As for Frost he's a very young player in this draft with a ton of potential who just had a nice breakout year. He's close to being eligible for next years draft...where if his development continues he'd jump up in the ranks. His skating and hockey sense is already superior to Schenns ...Plus he's a Barrie boy, and Andy Frosts (Leaf commentator) son...that makes it pretty funny IMO.

[OccamsRazor]

Well i know Neuvy is glad he is on his team now.....

 

 

[icehole]

If we're talking about getting 1st round picks, let's not forget that the flyers are giving up a first round pick...a 5th overall pick actually (shenn).  Although schenn hasn't played at the highest level of number 5 picks, I'd say he's been just about as good as he should be (not could be).

 

So will the flyers get a #5 50+ point guy in return?  Who knows but the odds aren't that great.

 

As for his defensive liability, I'm not too concerned with that.  The flyers love to keep plenty of defensive specialists around to pick up the slack.  You know what the flyers don't keep around...scorers.

 

Bye schenn!  You scored too many points while not hanging back in your own zone as much as others do.  You also scored too many points on the PP while others scored way less, but those were 5 on 5 which is way more important.

[OccamsRazor]

Get it out folks...i'll be here for those who need a hug...it'll be ok i promise!!!

[OccamsRazor]

Some perspective....

 

Schenn is something of a polarizing player. The Flyers have long wanted to see a little more consistency and focus out of him, especially in 5-on-5 play. At times, he plays with a lot of sandpaper to his game and other times is disengaged. He's become a power play goal-scoring force the last couple seasons (especially in 2016-17).

Throughout his time with the Flyers, Schenn shuttled between all three forward positions and, while he prefers to play center, has been arguably better as a winger. The Blues apparently envision him as a number one center, but Schenn really has never shown signs into developing into a top-end pivot. 

 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=86007

[OccamsRazor]

Any how long nght at work last night off to bed...no one hurt themself or jump off Rick's bridge while i'm sleep.

 

Trust. The. Process!

[ruxpin]

42 minutes ago, icehole said:

If we're talking about getting 1st round picks, let's not forget that the flyers are giving up a first round pick...a 5th overall pick actually (shenn).  Although schenn hasn't played at the highest level of number 5 picks, I'd say he's been just about as good as he should be (not could be).

 

So will the flyers get a #5 50+ point guy in return?  Who knows but the odds aren't that great.

 

As for his defensive liability, I'm not too concerned with that.  The flyers love to keep plenty of defensive specialists around to pick up the slack.  You know what the flyers don't keep around...scorers.

 

Bye schenn!  You scored too many points while not hanging back in your own zone as much as others do.  You also scored too many points on the PP while others scored way less, but those were 5 on 5 which is way more important.

I'm sorry but based on what?   Based on the snark in your last paragraph?

 

He hurt every line he played on.  He was a square peg in a round hole.   As good as he should be?  At 5th overall, you'd think he could play 5 on 5...even a little.   He'd periodically have a 3-5 game stretch where you get tricked into thinking, "okay, he's actually starting to get it," only to return to Captain Bumblef###.   

 

Seriously.he had a total of 8 goals and 19 assists on regular strength.  Yeah, I know all about the 17g and 11a on the power play, but $5.2M is a lot to pay for a power play specialist forward who does nothing the other 12-15 minutes per game he's on the ice.  If "nothing" were as bad as it gets, that might be okay.  But he actually hurts his line, no matter what line he's on.   And his presence on the left wing --because he is horrible in the faceoff circle and not a center -- forces Konecny to play on his off wing.  That's actually a little more of a handicap than it might seem.

 

Schenn is Shenn.  On a team that might be able to afford an extra left winger who only really plays 4-5 minutes per game because they only know where to go when the puck is in the offensive end and they have additional space because it's on the power play, that's maybe fine.   But when he doesn't really fit on any line, when he screws every single line they put him on, when he blocks another player from their actual position because you're keeping him around for the power play and you stumble on a deal where you can save money AND get two first-round picks...what are we talking about again?  I certainly don't see how anyone could argue with a straight face that he's playing as good as he should be as a #5 pick.   He's not a complete player.  Knowing now what wasn't then, I doubt anyone takes him in the top 20, let alone #5.

 

With that, I do this trade.  And then you add this:  What's the big deal about the extra year off the cap this gets because of the fact Lehtera is gone a year earlier than Schenn?   BOTH Konecny and Provorov are going to be RFAs that season and Provorov, in particular, is going to need to get paid.   That extra $5.25M for that season is going to make a huge difference.

[canoli]

41 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 Losing Schenn hurts the team short term. Gaining 2-1st rounders has the potential to help long term. Yes it's just potential, but building through the draft is clearly Hextalls philosophy.

 

 He had Schenn in LA and Philly and obviously considers him expendable. I've never been on the "get rid of" side when it came to Brayden, but I'm fine with this deal...one step backward for hopefully two steps forward.

 

except that it's an ugly step backward. Lehtera is a 29-year old dud who doesn't kill penalties, who's got no shot, no hands in close, i.e. he doesn't score goals. And he's got a cap hit so similar to BSchenn's the difference isn't worth mentioning. Great, we save a year....what does that remind me of? oh right Hartnell for Umberger.

 

I thought Hextall made it clear he was going for a 5-year (max) turnaround. And he's been successful pursuing that. BSchenn? Seemed to me he was part of the longer-term plan - he's still young, still growing as a player (but yes, also showing signs he's hit his ceiling), was pretty much a lock to score 25... but okay, no great loss (except on the PP), he's not exactly a heart 'n soul kind of guy. But dragging over Lehtera is an unnecessary expense. Another center who doesn't score goals...greeeeaat...//sarcasm.

 

Hopefully Lehtera never suits up in the O&B because the Flyers don't need him at all. The picks are nice but this wasn't supposed to be a Better-Part-Of-A-Decade rebuild. I thought we were approaching Year 3 of the 5-year plan. We'll see.