Early impressions on D?

[King Knut]

To me Morin and Hagg look perfect with a few green mistakes here and there.  Mac still makes many many more. 

 

They have to be locks. 

 

Will Sanheim play Mac out of a spot?  

 

His offense has been strong but I don't want to downplay his d coverage.  He's been stronger than I thought. 

 

Dare they start the year with three rooks on D after all?  

 

Ill say this:  these kids make mistakes but have improved since the rookie game. Meanwhile, Mac is exactly the same. 

 

More to come and theyre all trying harder to win that spot... but shouldn't Mac be trying harder for the same thing at this point?  He did last year. 

 

 

[RJ8812]

MacDonald continually makes rookie mistakes yet he's a veteran. I want him off this team 

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

MacDonald continually makes rookie mistakes yet he's a veteran. I want him off this team 

 

Send his ass back to junior for his overage season....

 

[King Knut]

52 minutes ago, RJ8812 said:

MacDonald continually makes rookie mistakes yet he's a veteran. I want him off this team 

 

I think it may finally be undeniable. With these kids playing this well and Mac being well, mac... they've run out of excuses. 

[elmatus]

24 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I think it may finally be undeniable. With these kids playing this well and Mac being well, mac... they've run out of excuses. 

 

I've long given up trying to understand the Mac scenario. Either the Flyers brass just know something I don't, or they've been completely out to lunch on the guy since he was acquired. He's never been good. He's never been close to good. He's been an anchor for as long as he's worn the sweater with mistakes game in and out. Yet, somehow, with the one exception of Ghost's call up season, he's constantly relied upon not only to suit up and play, but to actually play on top pairings.

 

So, do I think this is the year the org will snap out of the hypnosis/drunkenness/voodoo hex that keeps them from dropping McDud to the AHL permanently? No, I do not. Until I see it happen, I'm forced to assume he'll be around making Provo have to work about 10x more than any other top pairing NHL dman.

 

As far as the kids themselves go, I would imagine Morin is pretty guaranteed at this point. Hagg seems to be working into a spot as well, though that would mean either an extra dman or something happening to Manning. I'm actually fine with Manning as far as a third pairing goes, so I'm okay either way. If the brass feel Hagg needs to be in the NHL to take the next step -- which is entirely possible at this point in his career -- then I say give him a spot. Sanheim is quickly becoming our version of Subban, which is both good and bad. I have a feeling his defensive slip ups will keep him off the team this year.

 

That said, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing Hex talk about how he'll keep whatever players up if they make the team better. McDud is a prime example of a situation where this is very clearly not the case. Despite the occasional defensive gaffes, Sanheim is just about exactly a hundred times more useful to a team than McDud as is. That's not including potential growth over the season for playing in the club.

[AJgoal]

I think it all comes down to Sanheim. I was not terribly impressed by what I saw in the rookie game, but he was very good last night. The brass are going to use a lot more to evaluate whether he stays up (practice, last year in Lehigh), and they are certainly giving Sanheim all the opportunity in the world to show he belongs. I would really like to see them keep all three rookies and shuttle MacDonald down to the AHL, as MacDonald looks even worse than he has in the past, if that's possible.

 

That said, the question should never be, "Does X player make our team better now?" It should be, "How good are his chances of hitting his ceiling if he plays in the NHL now, vs. a year in the AHL/juniors?" If you believe the difference is significant, that's when you wait. Even if the other option is a tire fire.

[Digityman]

2 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

and they are certainly giving Sanheim all the opportunity in the world to show he belongs. I would really like to see them keep all three rookies and shuttle MacDonald down to the AHL

 

Agreed 100%.  Morin is on the team already in my mind.  Hagg, I'm not as sold as others but I admit I could be wrong.  

 

The ball is really Sanheim's court and how he plays from now until October 4th will determine if he goes on the west coast trip or not.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

I think it all comes down to Sanheim.

 

 

This is it right here.

 

It's not about being scared of having to many rookies.

 

It's not about being scared to waive Mcdud they have done it before.

 

It more is about Travis being ready and what is best for his development and best for the team.

 

He has gotten better in every game i must say so i think he will be around to evaluate till the very last game.

 

And then they will do what they think is right.

 

I hope by that time they have decided to waive Mcdud. Because of his mistakes i have seen him (Sanheim) make....even right now he is better than Mcdud 

[vis]

Man, I have defended MacDonald in the past, but he's not been good in the limited preseason activity I have seen.  Flyers should think long and hard about whether he should be a regular.  He and Provorov were OK as a pairing last year and I think MacDonald played on that pairing out of necessity since he played the right side.  If you send him to the AHL, who do you move to the right side?  Seems Provorov would be the most likely candidate and then maybe Haag.  Might be a tall order for a young d-man, but Provorov is so good he may be able to adjust.  I doubt you make Morin or Sanheim move over.

[AJgoal]

3 minutes ago, vis said:

Man, I have defended MacDonald in the past, but he's not been good in the limited preseason activity I have seen.  Flyers should think long and hard about whether he should be a regular.  He and Provorov were OK as a pairing last year and I think MacDonald played on that pairing out of necessity since he played the right side.  If you send him to the AHL, who do you move to the right side?  Seems Provorov would be the most likely candidate and then maybe Haag.  Might be a tall order for a young d-man, but Provorov is so good he may be able to adjust.  I doubt you make Morin or Sanheim move over.

 

 

Sanheim played on the right in Lehigh, I believe. IIRC, he was generally paired with Morin. So your RD would be Sanheim, Ghost, Gudas.

[OccamsRazor]

Hard to argue that this is the best blueline going forward...

 

Ivan-Gudas

Morin-Ghost

Hagg-Sanheim

Manning

 

Mcdud buried in the AHL. Sorry.

 

Mistake will happen but with even with the kids learning on the job...Mcdud puts this blueline a step backwards.

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Hard to argue that this is the best blueline going forward...

 

Ivan-Gudas

Morin-Ghost

Hagg-Sanheim

Manning

 

Mcdud buried in the AHL. Sorry.

 

Mistake will happen but with even with the kids learning on the job...Mcdud puts this blueline a step backwards.

 

If Hex is really looking to ice the best possible team, this list is 100% accurate without a shade of doubt. As in, this list of seven is the exact best seven dmen available to the Flyers in 2017-18. Manning could be interchangeable with others, but honestly for the amount he would/should play, it may as well be Manning.

 

That said, I'll believe it when I see it. Something tells me the McDud era is not over yet.

[Philly29]

I usually say you need a veteran presence with all those rookies and young Dman, besides Gudas. That being said at this point I agree and have no doubt that:

11 hours ago, elmatus said:

Ivan-Gudas

Morin-Ghost

Hagg-Sanheim

Manning

Is the best line up going forward, McDud is a veteran but he is not a good presence, he needs to be dropped and let the rookies learn as they go. DAMN I can not wait for this season to start!!!

[vis]

14 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

 

Sanheim played on the right in Lehigh, I believe. IIRC, he was generally paired with Morin. So your RD would be Sanheim, Ghost, Gudas.

Ah, right.  Totally forgot.  There really is no reason for MacDonald at this point - except they would be putting a bunch of cap on the shelf.  They didn't have a problem with it in the past, though.  

[brelic]

I think the logic with MacDonald is that he is kind of an insurance policy. No one wants to pay for one, but when s@*t goes south, you're happy to have it.

 

So it's less about MacDonald's performance, or how much a rookie outplays him. It's what's between the ears of those rookies that makes a difference. If Hextall feels that, say, Sanheim looks great now, but is unsure if he can handle an 82 game schedule, or that he's picking up bad habits, or ignoring certain parts of his game because the pace is too fast, MacDonald is the insurance policy that protects our young guys and affords Hextall the luxury of sending our rookies down for more development.

 

In the absence of finding the right trade deal, I can see that as having its purpose all things considered. 

 

But if Morin, Hagg, and Sanheim outright earn a spot and Hextall feels they are ready to withstand the rigours of a full NHL season (or at least most of it), then I can see them sending MacDud down... they've done it before, so I don't think that's the issue.

 

[elmatus]

5 hours ago, vis said:

Ah, right.  Totally forgot.  There really is no reason for MacDonald at this point - except they would be putting a bunch of cap on the shelf.  They didn't have a problem with it in the past, though.  

 

I get they needed to expose enough dmen for the Vegas draft, and McDud was perfect for that. All that jazz is over now. No NHL team is going to want to trade for him either. Even with retained salary, he will be making too much for what he's worth. Sure, Hex could hold some hope that a cap floor team might need his hit, but there comes a point when hoping for that kind of luck is plain foolish. I think we've gotten there now.

 

tl;dr: McDud has always been an overpaid fringe dman. We don't need him anymore (if we ever did). Drop him to the AHL and move on.

[elmatus]

6 minutes ago, brelic said:

I think the logic with MacDonald is that he is kind of an insurance policy. No one wants to pay for one, but when s@*t goes south, you're happy to have it.

 

So it's less about MacDonald's performance, or how much a rookie outplays him. It's what's between the ears of those rookies that makes a difference. If Hextall feels that, say, Sanheim looks great now, but is unsure if he can handle an 82 game schedule, or that he's picking up bad habits, or ignoring certain parts of his game because the pace is too fast, MacDonald is the insurance policy that protects our young guys and affords Hextall the luxury of sending our rookies down for more development.

 

In the absence of finding the right trade deal, I can see that as having its purpose all things considered. 

 

But if Morin, Hagg, and Sanheim outright earn a spot and Hextall feels they are ready to withstand the rigours of a full NHL season (or at least most of it), then I can see them sending MacDud down... they've done it before, so I don't think that's the issue.

 

 

McDud is unable to withstand the rigours of a full NHL season. 

[brelic]

Just now, elmatus said:

 

McDud is unable to withstand the rigours of a full NHL season. 

 

Lol so true! Well, he can withstand it, he's just not very good at it. We don't need to worry about it affecting his development, do we? That ship sailed a LONG time ago. 

 

Man, he was awful against the Bruins. Every time I noticed a defensive gaffe, I paid attention to the name on the jersey, and it was always MacDud.

[elmatus]

Just now, brelic said:

 

Lol so true! Well, he can withstand it, he's just not very good at it. We don't need to worry about it affecting his development, do we? That ship sailed a LONG time ago. 

 

Man, he was awful against the Bruins. Every time I noticed a defensive gaffe, I paid attention to the name on the jersey, and it was always MacDud.

 

Let's put it this way: 

 

Say McDud has ten good games in the season. Ten games where he seems to have it all together, manages some good defensive coverage and helps the team to a win. I say ten because he honestly doesn't have more than that in him for a full season. In fact, ten may be generous when taking into account he plays on the top pairing.

 

As green as Sanheim may be, I have a hard time thinking he wouldn't be considerably more effective than McDud for more than just ten games in a season. Already in just the limited play he's had at the top level, defensive gaffes included, he has played with more skill than McDud ever has. Again, if Hex wants to ice the best team possible, there can be no McDud.

 

That's not counting the addition by subtraction of not having him bogging down Provo every night. Hell, the kid already proved he's one of the highest ceiling dmen in the league today. Imagine what he could do with an even moderately talented partner. Gudas is no Karlsson, but he's far more effective than McDud (on both sides of the ice in fact). There's an easy upgrade.

[FD19372]

I know the thing the organization likes is his quickness, but he is even more of a liability the more he is likely to play with anyone other than Gudas. They are all too young and inexperienced to compensate for his brain farts on skates (being caught out of position and constant turnovers) and we don't have a stud goalie which doesn't help matters much, of course. 

[OccamsRazor]

The only thing Mcdud does well is skate backwards conceding the defensive zone until he is screening his own goaltender and that is when the opposing unchallenged puck carrier fires it on net timing it perfectly for a shot on net unless that shooter just hit Mcdud...and then he gets credit for a "blocked shot".....

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

The only thing Mcdud does well is skate backwards conceding the defensive zone until he is screening his own goaltender and that is when the opposing unchallenged puck carrier fires it on net timing it perfectly for a shot on net unless that shooter just hit Mcdud...and then he gets credit for a "blocked shot".....

 

You forgot falling down.

[terp]

I got onto this thread hoping to read about how the young guys are playing, the pairing of Hagg and Provorov, Provorov's comment about hitting 20 goals, etc.  But based upon what read here, I sent a request to the administor to change the name of this thread to "Who cares about our young defense? McDud Belongs in the A".

 

But seriously, I think everyone here is undervaluing McDud.  He's an incredibly valuable commodity because he is a plausible NHL defenseman who can be sent down down to LV and brought back up at will with absolutely no risk of being plucked off waivers.  True, he's awful, but Hextall knows he has a warm body to fill out Flyers' defenseman uniform without a worry in the world (other than his play). He also doesn't have to worry about damaging McDud's development by sending him up and down like a yo-yo because, well, he's already a lost cause.  The latest in a string of brilliant moves by Hextall.

[radoran]

27 minutes ago, terp said:

I got onto this thread hoping to read about how the young guys are playing, the pairing of Hagg and Provorov, Provorov's comment about hitting 20 goals, etc.  But based upon what read here, I sent a request to the administor to change the name of this thread to "Who cares about our young defense? McDud Belongs in the A".

 

But seriously, I think everyone here is undervaluing McDud.  He's an incredibly valuable commodity because he is a plausible NHL defenseman who can be sent down down to LV and brought back up at will with absolutely no risk of being plucked off waivers.  True, he's awful, but Hextall knows he has a warm body to fill out Flyers' defenseman uniform without a worry in the world (other than his play). He also doesn't have to worry about damaging McDud's development by sending him up and down like a yo-yo because, well, he's already a lost cause.  The latest in a string of brilliant moves by Hextall.

 

In fairness, terp (btw good to see you round these parts) Holmgren did sign MacDud. I know the lore is that Hextall signed off on the deal, but it was Holmgren who actually signed it.

 

That said, Hextall has shown a proclivity to sign mid level players to questionable deals - Weiss, Read, Raffl, etc. - and he will be entirely accountable for what happens with Voracek.

 

I agree it makes a lot of sense to send MacDud down to the A for the purpose of getting more looks at the young D.

 

And then maybe the Ghost of Andrew MacDonald can take up the Ghost of RJ Umburglar's spot on the cap.

 

 

[terp]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

In fairness, terp (btw good to see you round these parts) Holmgren did sign MacDud. I know the lore is that Hextall signed off on the deal, but it was Holmgren who actually signed it.

 

That said, Hextall has shown a proclivity to sign mid level players to questionable deals - Weiss, Read, Raffl, etc. - and he will be entirely accountable for what happens with Voracek.

 

I agree it makes a lot of sense to send MacDud down to the A for the purpose of getting more looks at the young D.

 

And then maybe the Ghost of Andrew MacDonald can take up the Ghost of RJ Umburglar's spot on the cap.

 

 

 

Apologies for my off the wall attempt at humor.