Scouting report on Hartman is actually good

[RonJeremy]

Line Report: "One nasty piece of business. Oh, and he can score. This S.O.B. is one miserable [player] to play against! Industrial strength abrasive is always disturbing the peace--usually after the whistle--and gets opponents off their game and under their skin. Built like a tank and hits like a Mack truck, running over everything in his path. Also has a hard, heavy wrist shot and good stick skills. Can handle the puck at full speed and shows a fine mix of skills, skating, grit and physicality. Absolutely relentless in puck pursuit off a vicious forecheck. Crashes the crease hard and deliberately bangs into goalies often. Team catalyst plays with tons of passion. Ultra competitive warrior is the type of player you win championships with, and has a knack for coming up big at crunch time. Has underrated hands and playmaking skills. Plays a responsible defensive game and does all the little things that help good teams win. Fierce competitor." 
 

[RonJeremy]

Also read he had offseason shoulder surgery, so as we see with Provorov a shoulder injury takes a while to get your strength back,   so let’s see how he works out for this season and next. Nashville gave up a first round pick to Chicago to get him. I like the scouting report, he has some Simmonds qualities in his game.

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Line Report: "One nasty piece of business. Oh, and he can score. This S.O.B. is one miserable [player] to play against! Industrial strength abrasive is always disturbing the peace--usually after the whistle--and gets opponents off their game and under their skin. Built like a tank and hits like a Mack truck, running over everything in his path. Also has a hard, heavy wrist shot and good stick skills. Can handle the puck at full speed and shows a fine mix of skills, skating, grit and physicality. Absolutely relentless in puck pursuit off a vicious forecheck. Crashes the crease hard and deliberately bangs into goalies often. Team catalyst plays with tons of passion. Ultra competitive warrior is the type of player you win championships with, and has a knack for coming up big at crunch time. Has underrated hands and playmaking skills. Plays a responsible defensive game and does all the little things that help good teams win. Fierce competitor." 
 

 

@OccamsRazor

You asked.  It's exactly this kind of thing that is driving me nuts.  It's just simply not the reality of Hartman the NHLer.

 

@RonJeremy this wasn't meant to be directed at you.  This what makes Hartman so disappointing.  Because this was the press when he was going to the draft and very early on.  He hasn't been this.  And as a forward at 24 he's beyond, "we'll see."  He's bottom 6 at best and just doesn't do the things his ability indicates he should.  Two clubs have now given up on him.   Think about it.  If the above line report were remotely true, he's not getting traded WITH a 3rd rounder for the ghost of Wayne Simmonds.

[OccamsRazor]

50 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

@OccamsRazor

You asked.  It's exactly this kind of thing that is driving me nuts.  It's just simply not the reality of Hartman the NHLer.

 

@RonJeremy this wasn't meant to be directed at you.  This what makes Hartman so disappointing.  Because this was the press when he was going to the draft and very early on.  He hasn't been this.  And as a forward at 24 he's beyond, "we'll see."  He's bottom 6 at best and just doesn't do the things his ability indicates he should.  Two clubs have now given up on him.   Think about it.  If the above line report were remotely true, he's not getting traded WITH a 3rd rounder for the ghost of Wayne Simmonds.

 

Yeah that is a crazy report. Seems like the Preds needs that type of guy.

 

All i can say is i will wait and see him play and who he plays with. Who knows what we get he has about 20 games left to play.

 

I hope he plays tonight....but more than likely than not....why is it when they get to Philly it's always a few games before we see them play because they need to practice before they can play...but you watch last night Brassard gets traded and plays against his former team a few hours later and even scores a goal against them. But in Philly they need a few games.

 

Could that be the issue the complexity of the system?? Could that be why the team is struggling or part of it?

 

They are having to think so much??

 

It is weird that guys can't just come in and play even if it's to start on the 4th and work their way into the game.

 

I'm hoping Hartman comes in and makes a good impression and has positive results.

[RonJeremy]

Has anyone seen Hartman play a bunch of games? Is he at least somewhat physical, does he hit people, who can we compare him to in style or lack of.

 

[Howie58]

Well, whatever the hell he is, Hartmann has a 20 game audition.  So does Talbot.  What's sad:  Two to three years ago, people on this board said it was time to trade Simmonds due to shelf life concerns.  We had it right. Our then-current GM didn't.  I don't fault Fletcher on this. It is a spillover of the Hexy regime.  I'd go a step further--it is a spillover of a very disappointing Flyers season.  

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

46 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Two to three years ago, people on this board said it was time to trade Simmonds due to shelf life concerns.

 

Yep Hextall should have traded him this past season since he knew what Wayne wanted. 

 

But no he didn't have the balls to do so.

 

So now they get stuck because Chuck decides for some reason to turn down this magical elusive mystery trade everyone keeps talking about yet has no proof of just complaining because one time in band camp in Minnesota...

 

...Chuck stuck a....nevermind carry on.

 

 

 

[OH1FlyersFan]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

but you watch last night Brassard gets traded and plays against his former team a few hours later and even scores a goal against them

Duchene did exactly that with the Blue Jackets.  Played on the top line in his first game against his former team - who had just traded him away ten hours earlier.  Then in just his second game with his new team he got a goal and assist --- not against his former team, but still not bad.  Good luck with that Hartman!

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yep Hextall should have traded him this past season since he knew what Wayne wanted. 

 

But no he didn't have the balls to do so.

 

That, unfortunately, was the downfall of Hextall. He was so overly cautious that even when the correct move was staring him down, he wouldn't do it. Moving Simmonds, firing Hakstol, really addressing the goaltending, moving out the 'beloved' veterans like Weise, Lehtera, etc.....Hextall did nothing. Fletcher was stuck doing the work Hextall simply refused to do.

 

As for Hartman, as mentioned in other places, he's not going to need to score a ton to be effective. Speed, tenacity, and checking will be his calling card. It's also good to see that Giroux has already welcomed him and stated the following:

 

“Very smart player,″ Giroux said. “I think his hockey IQ is very high. He’s got some skills, grit and the orange and black is going to look good on him.″

 

Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. Things are going to be OK.

[sekkes85]

On 2/26/2019 at 4:40 AM, ruxpin said:

And as a forward at 24 he's beyond, "we'll see."  He's bottom 6 at best and just doesn't do the things his ability indicates he should.  

 

Is it though?  Players develop at much different rates in completely different ways.  I don't expect him to have an emergence on a Coots level (wasn't he 24 when he broke out?) but Hartman looked pretty damn good in his first game with the O&B.  Had some scoring opportunities, laid some nasty hits down, beat out an icing play (he's got some nice speed).  

 

Let's see what he can do in Philly before poo pooing on the guy.  Of course next clean open ice hit he has will probably be a suspension and then he'll go down the Gudas road to being afraid to touch anyone...

[vis]

14 minutes ago, sekkes85 said:

Let's see what he can do in Philly before poo pooing on the guy.  Of course next clean open ice hit he has will probably be a suspension and then he'll go down the Gudas road to being afraid to touch anyone...

He's never demonstrated the type of scoring prowess you'd expect of a top 6 player.  Btw, there's nothing wrong with being a serviceable third/fourth line energy guy.  The Flyers don't have those type of players.  He fills a need.  That's pretty good, imo.

[OccamsRazor]

42 minutes ago, sekkes85 said:

Let's see what he can do in Philly before poo pooing on the guy.

 

Exactly.

 

I think the same should be done with Chuck Fletcher as well.

 

Let's give the guy a chance in Philly before we lynch him from the nearest street sign on broad street for something he did while in Minnesota.

 

Dear lawd real quick some one here raise their hand on who wants to be judged right now because of some mistakes the have made in the past like they going to immediately make them again as soon as they get a chance because everyone assume they are incapable of learning from them.

 

Yeah that is what I thought (not aiming this at you) the Murican/Christian way always wanting a second chance and forgiveness while never offering anyone else any.

 

#MAGA

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, sekkes85 said:

 

Is it though?  Players develop at much different rates in completely different ways.  I don't expect him to have an emergence on a Coots level (wasn't he 24 when he broke out?) but Hartman looked pretty damn good in his first game with the O&B.  Had some scoring opportunities, laid some nasty hits down, beat out an icing play (he's got some nice speed).  

 

Let's see what he can do in Philly before poo pooing on the guy.  Of course next clean open ice hit he has will probably be a suspension and then he'll go down the Gudas road to being afraid to touch anyone...

 

The first bolded:   That's very fair.  

 

The second:  He IS wearing orange & black, after all.

 

I wonder if it ends up hurting him if we do hire Coach Q.   I don't think I necessarily blame Q because it really could be a late-developer kind of thing.   But I also wonder if his confidence could take a "oh no, not again" hit if Coach Q were to come in.

 

Since posting this, I've kind of moderated into a "wait and see" with him.  If we're actually only looking for bottom 6 with the ability to slot up due to injury/line juggling/etc., then I'm actually okay with him.   First games being what they are (trying hard to impress but mixed with nerves), it was a really good first game.

[ruxpin]

39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Exactly.

 

I think the same should be done with Chuck Fletcher as well.  YOU'RE WRONG!

 

Let's give the guy a chance in Philly before we lynch him from the nearest street sign on broad street for something he did while in Minnesota.  YOU'RE WRONG!

 

Dear lawd real quick some one here raise their hand on who wants to be judged right now because of some mistakes the have made in the past like they going to immediately make them again as soon as they get a chance because everyone assume they are incapable of learning from them.  I'VE NEVER MADE MISTAKES!  I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU HAVE ON TAPE!

 

Yeah that is what I thought (not aiming this at you) the Murican/Christian way always wanting a second chance and forgiveness while never offering anyone else any.   THANK GOD I'M INCAN!

 

#MAGA  VOMIT!

 

Carry on.  

[King Knut]

On 2/26/2019 at 12:44 AM, RonJeremy said:

Line Report: "One nasty piece of business. Oh, and he can score. This S.O.B. is one miserable [player] to play against! Industrial strength abrasive is always disturbing the peace--usually after the whistle--and gets opponents off their game and under their skin. Built like a tank and hits like a Mack truck, running over everything in his path. Also has a hard, heavy wrist shot and good stick skills. Can handle the puck at full speed and shows a fine mix of skills, skating, grit and physicality. Absolutely relentless in puck pursuit off a vicious forecheck. Crashes the crease hard and deliberately bangs into goalies often. Team catalyst plays with tons of passion. Ultra competitive warrior is the type of player you win championships with, and has a knack for coming up big at crunch time. Has underrated hands and playmaking skills. Plays a responsible defensive game and does all the little things that help good teams win. Fierce competitor." 
 

 

 

Maybe Fletcher is a secret miracle worker.

 

My major concern with Hartman isn't that he isn't good.  It's that neither he nor Fletcher really has any idea what it's like being a Flyer yet.  

Which means antics like Tuesday, however clean they were will get him a reputation soon and that will get him suspended shortly thereafter.

 

I actually think he'll be a good 4th liner for them next year, but if he's the third liner, something's gone wrong.  

 

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Maybe Fletcher is a secret miracle worker.

 

My major concern with Hartman isn't that he isn't good.  It's that neither he nor Fletcher really has any idea what it's like being a Flyer yet.  

Which means antics like Tuesday, however clean they were will get him a reputation soon and that will get him suspended shortly thereafter.

 

I actually think he'll be a good 4th liner for them next year, but if he's the third liner, something's gone wrong.  

 

 

I'm pretty much with you.   I don't think it has to be a disaster if he's on the 3rd line, but that will mean they haven't brought anyone in.  That doesn't have to be terrible.  But I think it also means that it's arguable that NAK is a disappointment at that point, right?   Or not well yet.

 

If -- if -- Claude Giroux is still at center by then, I'd be concerned about the rest of the 3rd line if Hartman is on it.  JVR-Patrick-Hartman doesn't really excite me.  And Laughton-Patrick-Hartman makes me want to go for a bike ride in Avalon.  

 

So, something/someone needs to plug in.  Because even if Giroux slides back to the left, I still probably have any of JVR, Laughton, or Lindblom with WHO? and Hartman.    I'm really wondering if Frost makes the jump straight from juniors to the NHL or whether he spends time in Lehigh.   So many questions.  LOL

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm pretty much with you.   I don't think it has to be a disaster if he's on the 3rd line, but that will mean they haven't brought anyone in. 

 

Exactly.  It will mean they didn't get better and depending on how Hartman's scoring touch works out in Philly, they may be a little worse.

However, put him on the 4th with an improvement on the 3rd (which could mean an improvement on 1 or 2) and you may be onto something.

 

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

That doesn't have to be terrible.  But I think it also means that it's arguable that NAK is a disappointment at that point, right?   Or not well yet.

 

 

 

I've long since moved on from NAK in my head.  They could bring him up to show him off a bit for a better return, but that's about it as far as I'm concerned.  

 

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

If -- if -- Claude Giroux is still at center by then, I'd be concerned about the rest of the 3rd line if Hartman is on it.  JVR-Patrick-Hartman doesn't really excite me.  And Laughton-Patrick-Hartman makes me want to go for a bike ride in Avalon.  

 

I think with Frost coming along, we have to hope Giroux is a LW for good next year.  

 

JVR Frost Jake is my hope. 

Laughton Vorobyev  Hartman  or  Rubstov  Laughton Hartman  or something like that could be a pretty damn good 4th.  

 

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

So, something/someone needs to plug in.  Because even if Giroux slides back to the left, I still probably have any of JVR, Laughton, or Lindblom with WHO? and Hartman.    I'm really wondering if Frost makes the jump straight from juniors to the NHL or whether he spends time in Lehigh.   So many questions.  LOL

 

I'm actually thinking Fletcher will push him to make the jump.  The common thinking is that Hextall held guys back, but TK, Provo & Patty all played as teenagers and Lindblom was like 21, Vrobyev was 20 I think.  There's actually a fairly strong culture of putting the kids into the crucible.  Fletcher shows no signs of backing off that.  If Frost is remotely ready, I expect him to play in the NHL.  They always have the potential of Giroux moving back to center if it isn't working and he needs LV time.   But I think Fletcher should (and likely he thinks so too) be focusing on the empty RW slot.

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Let's give the guy a chance in Philly before we lynch him from the nearest street sign on broad street for something he did while in Minnesota.

 

 

From my personal pov (and I know I've said this elsewhere so forgive me), my beef with Fletcher has been of more of a rhetorical nature. 

 

His moves have been boring and relatively pointless.  Not bad necessarily.  The only truly debatable one has been Stolarz for Talbot.  The rest have been... just meh... whatever.  We can be disappointed with "meh" or we can give him the benefit of the doubt.  

 

I've been harder on him because what he's doing wasn't what was promised.  We're essentially being lied to by Holmgren and Scott and I don't like that because it means they're not making decisions based on hockey... and that's what got us into the mess 5 years ago Hextall had to take 5 slow long mediocre at best years to drag the team back out of.  

 

They (and many others) like to make the point that the team isn't better for that 5 years.  My point is at that time we were looking at a pretty bad, cap strapped team with no defense, no draft picks, no prospects and no prospect of getting better for 6 or 7 years.  Now we're looking at a team with tons of cap space, several very good young players, and a ton of prospects that looks like it could just keep getting better for the next 6 or 7 years at least. 

 

That's a huge difference to me, and going back to the knee jerk shoot from the hip spend without thinking or anticipating days of Holmgren will absolutely kill me with this team.

 

Hextall had a huge blind spot when it came to the coach.   I don't understand it.  Maybe he just wanted to give Hak til the end of the year or maybe he really did just have a blind spot for him and his old pal Murphy.  I don't know.  It was a tragic flaw.

 

Other than that tragic flaw, despite the Weises and Lehteras (who I could care less about because they were never part of the plan) and the injured goalies (a good deal of the last I will put on Hakstol btw) Hextall's overall philosophy is what I want out of a GM.  An indefinitely sustainably competitive team.  So when Homer and Scott say there were philosophical differences, that scares the crap out of me because as far as his track record tells me, Homer's philosophy absolutely friggin' sucks.  

 

If there had just been someone smart in the room.  Someone to tell Homer and Scott to just CHILL OUT with the alpha male B.S. and to slap Hextall with a bucket of cold water and tell him to wise the hell up and call a spade a spade and move the hell on from his coaching staff, I'd be much more comfortable right now.

 

As it is, I do not trust Homer and Scott.  I think they're a serious danger to the team... because Homer has proven it and Scott is a corporate schmuck eager to show off to his colleagues.

 

Fletcher instills ZERO confidence in me that he has the balls to stand up to them or the savvy or creativity to make the trickier moves and sly plays that he's going to have to make.  

 

I don't want to give him 6 months, but clearly I have no choice in the matter.  In the mean time, I'm not going to kiss his ring for trading a bunch of players that weren't coming back in exchange for a bunch that won't ever see serious NHL time and getting a pretty decent 4th liner to play in Simmonds' spot and trading a really good looking young backup goalie with some injury history that would have resigned for about a million or so for a 31 year old UFA who would much rather start somewhere and will likely want at least $4million bucks for who knows how long. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

21 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Fletcher instills ZERO confidence in me that he has the balls to stand up to them or the savvy or creativity to make the trickier moves and sly plays that he's going to have to make. 

 

I'm completely with you.

 

On the other hand, I'm pleasantly surprised that while his moves so far have either been no-brainers or "meh" (as you describe them), he hasn't followed what we both perceive to be the "trade everything for the quick fix" mantra from above.  So, I have a bit more hope now than I did when Fletcher was first hired.   

 

I figure going forward that if we do nothing, we'll be competitive due to  the kids that are about ready.  If we strategically and in a targeted way make smart moves then the sky is the limit.    So far, I'm okay with Fletcher's slow-and-steady but doing the no-brainer things so far.  Even the Simmonds trade.

 

And if you read/remember any of my posts when Fletch was first hired, you know I've moderated quite a bit on that.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

Carry on.  

 

I knew I could count on you to right wrong.

 

[Podein25]

"Thank God I'm Incan"

 

LMAO

[RonJeremy]

Hartman has added some hustle,  excitement and good hits to this vanilla team. Hartman gets the crowd going and gets under the skin of opponents, I haven't seen this much crowd reaction since the days of Rinaldo , Carcillo and Hartnell, maybe he can become a 20 goal guy. He certainly puts in a full effort out there. To me Hartman  and  an ever improving offensive  force Sanheim are the most  exciting thing about this team right now. I think once  Hart returns and Meyers and Morin get some experience this team will be enjoyable to watch on a regular basis. 

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Hartman has added some hustle,  excitement and good hits to this vanilla team. Hartman gets the crowd going and gets under the skin of opponents, I haven't seen this much crowd reaction since the days of Rinaldo , Carcillo and Hartnell, maybe he can become a 20 goal guy. He certainly puts in a full effort out there. To me Hartman  and  an ever improving offensive  force Sanheim are the most  exciting thing about this team right now. I think once  Hart returns and Meyers and Morin get some experience this team will be enjoyable to watch on a regular basis. 

 

If only he could help his coach adjust his game plan when his isn't working.

 

Wish Hatman could teach his teammates to keep skating and stop standing and watching expecting someone else to play defense.

 

Jackets were skating circles around them last night once the 3rd period started.

 

They move the puck up ice into the Flyers zone and had nice quick short passes...Flyers looked panicky when they did seem to skate and just could compete simple passes at times.

 

One team look like a motivated playoff team the other looked mediocre at times you which one was the Flyers....

[elmatus]

I didn't like him as much last game though. I'm already worried he's going to be our latest Rinaldo, taking stupid penalties just for the sake of getting a highlight reel hit, and in the process turning every ref in the league against us as they have been in the past owing to such antics.

 

I don't want Chris Neil on this team. Hopefully Gordon can settle him down some.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

I didn't like him as much last game though. I'm already worried he's going to be our latest Rinaldo, taking stupid penalties just for the sake of getting a highlight reel hit, and in the process turning every ref in the league against us as they have been in the past owing to such antics.

 

I don't want Chris Neil on this team. Hopefully Gordon can settle him down some.

This crossed my mind as well. 

 

Also the concern that he's yet another flyer that can't seem to hit the net standing inside it.