RonJeremy Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I hope there are more assets coming to the Flyers if Kadri is the target. Ghost for Kadri is a loser in my book. Like you have been saying Toronto is over a barrel, use that. get stuff, screw them over but good... Yes plus we have to get them back for the Luke Schenn trade. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sekkes85 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) Bit more than I would like to give up but from what I can see he is a solid defensive dman, we have enough that can put up points. Looking at his GP seems to be real durable too. With San Jose needing to shed cap I would have hoped for a 3rd and bottom tier prospect but if the guy can help us out now the 2nd isn't a huge loss especially with how stocked our farm is. Now who gets shipped out.... or does Morin go to the minors for the year and Hagg stay as the 7th? Also Hart is probably loving these moves lol Edited June 18, 2019 by sekkes85 Additional thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky13 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Provorov/Niskanen Sanheim/Braun Ghost/Myers Morin/Hagg That is impressive I say even if it's only on paper. But I think Hagg or someone gets dealt. I like the looks of this (or maybe Braun/Niskanen swap spots, not sure yet). Ghost on the 3rd pairing will be fine for his defensive abilities, and create matchup problems for opponents' bottom 6 forwards once he has the puck on his stick. Then add in his PP time where he can contribute points and I think it's a recipe for success for him. Then either sign Hayes if his price/term isn't too high...or use some combination of Hagg/1st round pick/prospect to trade for a solid 2C. Edited June 18, 2019 by Lucky13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Well, the "bias for action" seems to be taking hold. We are on the book for one more season, so the the long-term consequences are not that great if this doesn't pan out. With all the picks in our system, giving up a 41st isn't catastrophic. Yes, he was -14 last year, but that is a deviation from lifetime stats. On face, we are going to start with a much better D than the one we ended last season with. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 I am noticing a trend in the fact that Fletcher has yet to really extract any extra value from a team with cap issues. Edmonton, Washington, and San Jose all NEEDED cap space. Fletcher just basically gave it to them, along with full value (or even a little more) in trade capital. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, RonJeremy said: Do you think Toronto would do Haag for Kapenen, probably not. Maybe looks like a fair trade to me. But not sure what other offers they are getting...he is basically the 3rd line RW and those guys honestly could be signed in free agency...i like Brett Connolly in that spot. Maybe Hagg could be part of a bigger haul... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I don't think Fletcher has any attachments to Hagg or Morin. He has some liking to Ghost. (Allot of us want Morin to be in the lineup to play Flyers hockey) Can Hagg and Morin be sent to start the season to the AHL and be brought up as emergency call ups in case our starting six get injured.(Would that require a new two way contract for Hagg/Morin?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sekkes85 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, LegionOfDoom said: I don't think Fletcher has any attachments to Hagg or Morin. He has some liking to Ghost. (Allot of us want Morin to be in the lineup to play Flyers hockey) Can Hagg and Morin be sent to start the season to the AHL and be brought up as emergency call ups in case our starting six get injured.(Would that require a new two way contract for Hagg/Morin?) At this point both would have to go through waivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, LegionOfDoom said: I don't think Fletcher has any attachments to Hagg or Morin. He has some liking to Ghost. (Allot of us want Morin to be in the lineup to play Flyers hockey) Can Hagg and Morin be sent to start the season to the AHL and be brought up as emergency call ups in case our starting six get injured.(Would that require a new two way contract for Hagg/Morin?) No for either case. They would have to clear waivers, which they certainly wouldn't. Teams will pick those guys up. So we have 9 NHL defensemen right now (incl. Schmaltz who is on an NHL contract and would require waivers)... something's gotta give. This feels like the year Homer stocked up on defensemen and we had like 10... Foster, Gervais, Lilja, and a bunch of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Lucky13 said: I like the looks of this If you want to shut down the other teams top line you could always go with this... Provorov/Braun Sanheim/Niskanen Ghost/Myers Morin/Hagg I am guessing someone else will be dealt. The usually roll with 7 D. So it could be Hagg or Ghost i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, brelic said: No for either case. They would have to clear waivers, which they certainly wouldn't. Teams will pick those guys up. So we have 9 NHL defensemen right now (incl. Schmaltz who is on an NHL contract and would require waivers)... something's gotta give. This feels like the year Homer stocked up on defensemen and we had like 10... Foster, Gervais, Lilja, and a bunch of others. Schlemko ;). Schmaltz is still in Arizona to the best of my knowledge. Hopefully they keep Ghost and move Hagg. Tony A. said that he had a feeling Hagg was moving, though he admitted he didn't have any inside info like he did on the Gudas trade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, AJgoal said: Schlemko ;). Schmaltz is still in Arizona to the best of my knowledge. Hopefully they keep Ghost and move Hagg. Tony A. said that he had a feeling Hagg was moving, though he admitted he didn't have any inside info like he did on the Gudas trade. Oh yeah? Well schcrew you! I totally forgot about Schlemko until I saw someone mention him on Twitter... he's AHL-bound, but could be a waiver casualty. If they kept Ghost, this blueline would be sick. Provorov/Niskanen Sanheim/Braun Ghost/Myers Morin SO if that's our blueline, and Hayes signs, we really only need a 3RW which can be found in free agency. That and a backup goalie are the only things left. Hagg could be traded to recoup a draft pick if they don't have any holes to fill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 42 minutes ago, AJgoal said: I am noticing a trend in the fact that Fletcher has yet to really extract any extra value from a team with cap issues. Edmonton, Washington, and San Jose all NEEDED cap space. Fletcher just basically gave it to them, along with full value (or even a little more) in trade capital. You have to give to get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said: You have to give to get... Sure. And wanting those pieces is fine, if you think they're active improvements (I disagree on Niskanen/Talbot and am on the fence on Braun). But thinking the player is good doesn't change the fact that San Jose had 12 million in cap space with 7 forwards signed for next year. They had to move someone with a cap number. Didn't matter if it was a good player or not. So you do everything you can to push their price down, or to get something extra out of them. He did neither. That's poor asset management, regardless of whether you want the player with the cap hit or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, AJgoal said: Sure. And wanting those pieces is fine, if you think they're active improvements (I disagree on Niskanen/Talbot and am on the fence on Braun). But thinking the player is good doesn't change the fact that San Jose had 12 million in cap space with 7 forwards signed for next year. They had to move someone with a cap number. Didn't matter if it was a good player or not. So you do everything you can to push their price down, or to get something extra out of them. He did neither. That's poor asset management, regardless of whether you want the player with the cap hit or not. Can't have your cake and eat it too you want some skill and not a Nick Schultz coming back you have to pay top four D men are easy to come by. I like the moves. Will they be worth it??? That remains to be seen. The crystal ball is in the shop. Sitting on the fence is fine too. I hope it reaps the benefits desired. This team is in playoffs or bust even though they aren't even done. I wasn't a fan and still don't understand the Talbot move. But hey maybe they learned something they otherwise wouldn't have so i guess i think of it as ot wasting time...now they can go in another direction if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said: Can't have your cake and eat it too Yes, you can. When a team is up against the cap you have leverage. Failure to use it is just that. Funny how you tend to only hear "Well, you gotta give to get," when a team overpays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Just now, AJgoal said: Yes, you can. When a team is up against the cap you have leverage. Failure to use it is just that. Funny how you tend to only hear "Well, you gotta give to get," when a team overpays. You have no idea what other teams were offering so you are just assuming...shouldn't do that. It's Philly man you just can't make everyone happy. I get it not my first rodeo. I like it, you don't got it. Guess we'll see maybe a new whipping boy to replace Mcdud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: You have no idea what other teams were offering so you are just assuming...shouldn't do that. What other teams want to offer has no bearing on what you should pay. MacDonald was likely to get about what he got from the Flyers if he hit the open market. Does that make it ok that the Flyers gave him the contract they did? Or should they have said, "Thanks, but no thanks," and walked away, and let him get it somewhere else? Overpayment is overpayment. It doesn't matter if another team, or twenty other teams, were prepared to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post AJgoal Posted June 18, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2019 Let me dial this back a little bit, because it's coming off as if I hate the move. On its own, I don't. Braun offers little in the way of offense, but his defensive metrics are solid. I think a 2nd and next year's third are maybe a tad bit of an overpayment for a defensive defenseman who's a one-rear rental, but it's not horrible (aside from killing certain offer sheet options). Of course, I would have preferred to see if that 2nd could have been in some sort of package for Spurgeon, but I digress. What bothers me is the pattern. Stolarz is a young goalie, some upside. Talbot is an older guy, had some success, but had had a couple bad years back to back. That trade value is fine, except that Talbot HAD to move so they could activate Sekera. Fletcher pays full value. Niskanen is coming off of two years of decline. Gudas is a nothing flashy, stay at home guy with decent instincts and good defensive numbers. Even if you agree that Gudas with 30% retained is equal value for Niskanen (I don't), the Caps are a division rival who are facing cap trouble. Again, full value paid. Braun is a steady, stay at home guy, signed for one more year. As I said, a 2+future 3 is probably fair value, or a bit of an overpayment. Yet again, the Sharks are in cap trouble, and you pay full value. I could see there possibly being competition for Braun, I'm doubtful on the other two. The pattern is the concerning part. If it was one move for one guy (especially if it was Braun), I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it. But so far there have been three trades where he should've been able to get a discount, and he failed all three times. That tells me that he's either 1 - bad at negotiating, 2 - bad at valuation, or 3 - bad at both. What happens when he goes after a player that a team doesn't need to trade? Do we get bent over? THAT is what I'm worried about - not the move in and of itself. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 45 minutes ago, AJgoal said: What other teams want to offer has no bearing on what you should pay. MacDonald was likely to get about what he got from the Flyers if he hit the open market. Does that make it ok that the Flyers gave him the contract they did? Or should they have said, "Thanks, but no thanks," and walked away, and let him get it somewhere else? Overpayment is overpayment. It doesn't matter if another team, or twenty other teams, were prepared to do so. Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The one critique of this trade that made some sense is that Braun's advanced stats have been in decline, and that Fletcher might be hoping that he and Niskanen can have bounce back years. That may be wishful thinking. That said, both of these guys are solid and not on any long-term contract. Agreed with others that somebody is going. I hope it isn't Ghost. Hagg is a shot-blocker but his stats aren't good and I have to wonder what he would fetch. Morin....would another team want to inherit a "project" with injury-proneness? Maybe we see a package deal. Or Fletch flips one or more for a pick or order change? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Howie58 said: The one critique of this trade that made some sense is that Braun's advanced stats have been in decline, and that Fletcher might be hoping that he and Niskanen can have bounce back years. That may be wishful thinking. That said, both of these guys are solid and not on any long-term contract. Agreed with others that somebody is going. I hope it isn't Ghost. Hagg is a shot-blocker but his stats aren't good and I have to wonder what he would fetch. Morin....would another team want to inherit a "project" with injury-proneness? Maybe we see a package deal. Or Fletch flips one or more for a pick or order change? If we are looking for an impact player, then you gotta figure Ghost is going. Haag or Morin can get us a second round pick and that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Howie58 said: The one critique of this trade that made some sense is that Braun's advanced stats have been in decline, and that Fletcher might be hoping that he and Niskanen can have bounce back years. That may be wishful thinking. It might be you're right, but by Dmen standards they still have lots of mileage left in them, pending injuries and the like. Braun has played a lot of really good hockey. If the body is holding up I expect he can play more of it. Smart, experienced D are a nice thing to have, especially when you're trying to groom the young talent back there. Guys like Sanheim and Myers are still learning - hell, they're just starting to learn really! - and I'd rather have them learning from a guy like Braun than Andrew MacDonald. I think people who are focused on the price (a bit steep in my mind too) are possibly undervaluing that. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terp Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 This is expensive, but I may feel differently if the picks are reclaimed in a subsequent Hägg or Ghost trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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