OccamsRazor Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 36 minutes ago, elmatus said: It's way too early to tell. But I think it's fair to look at his first off season and to be critical of certain things. I don't think it needs to be an all or nothing deal. But wait you just said it's too early to tell. So what would it benefit us to do it now before they have all even played a minute together on the ice yet....why now? How is that even fair? I guess because we can because we are all smarter than the guys running the show.... ...sorry I just have to laugh. Fookin Flyer fans SMFH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: This. If the Flyers become a perennial playoff team the next several years, it will be because the Hextall draft picks pan out, not because of Ser Hayes of the Stone Hands. Which begs the question: why sign this guy to an above-market contract when he will never be a difference maker? You know none of this. None of it. So were you getting all this insight on the future your magic 8 ball? Oh yeah I know just wait a few years so you can tell us you're right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, flyercanuck said: I guess when I view Hayes contract I'm looking at it as a Flyers fan who watched Hextall spend FOUR YEARS trying to dig them out of hell from an idiot GM who kept signing players to ridiculous deals and throwing draft picks away. Now that that guy hired the gm who signed our next stupid contract...well, that's the insane part. I watched Lebanc play here for 3 years on the Colts...I figured the Sharks got a steal when they took him that late in the draft. Looks like the gift that keeps on giving. I just don't see the Hayes contract as "insane." Overpayment? Yes. But not "insane" overpayment nor do I disagree with the rationale behind signing him. After 4+ years of not being a meaningful contender - and missing POs - I totally get the change in approach. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, elmatus said: He did very little to find us a reasonably good goalie option over the last couple seasons. He also didn't get us a proper 2C when he should have. So, I'm curious about these, because they are points made not just by you, but by many. Who "should" Hextall have gotten to play 2C last year? Who was the obviously better goalie option he didn't get (keeping in mind I don't like Elliott a little bit)? Keeping in mind that there really weren't m/any UFA options and that a #2 overall pick landed in their laps who just happened to play center, what "should" he have given up to acquire who from where? Sometimes there just aren't the players to fill the immediate "need" and taking a patient approach to be in position to make the right moves at the right time can make all the difference. LA missed the playoffs Hextall's first three years as AGM and then lost in the first round twice, then went Cup, Conference Finals, Cup after dealing three "promising young players" in Simmonds, Schenn, and Johnson. (they then devoted what will be 33% of next year's $81.5M cap to three players and have two rounds of playoffs in five years since, but I digress...) Hayes could be that "right" guy and this might be the "right" time. It's an awfully big bet to put down. We'll see if it pays off for them. But, as you astutely note, the vast majority of the foundation of what would make this the "right" time is due to the efforts of Ron Hextall. Edited July 9, 2019 by radoran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 32 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Which can't truly even be done till the end of next season...or maybe even later then, Hextall got/getting that benefit. So if we are suppose to wait till after the Mcdud, Umburger, Vinny and goalie fiasco is over basically 4-5 years. Shouldn't we wait to truly evaluate Chuckles? Or oh no let's rush to do it now because well because we can?!? I vote now! This is fun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 @radoran You clearly haven't played NHL 19. Video games have shown us that filling out every roster need is a very simple matter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, radoran said: Who "should" Hextall have gotten to play 2C last year? Who was the obviously better goalie option he didn't get (keeping in mind I don't like Elliott a little bit)? To be honest, I put those in there to have more questionable things to say about Hextall. I have no good answers for those questions. And that's part of the problem. Hexy did so many things well. It leaves big shoes for Fletcher. He's not stepping into a situation where the franchise is in shambles and in desperate need of serious attentions. This is just the very opposite situation. Will he fill those shoes well? I hope so. He has one hell of a head start as far as prospects are concerned anyway. 41 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: But wait you just said it's too early to tell. So what would it benefit us to do it now before they have all even played a minute together on the ice yet....why now? How is that even fair? I guess because we can because we are all smarter than the guys running the show.... ...sorry I just have to laugh. Fookin Flyer fans SMFH. This forum exists for the express purpose of discussing stuff like this. Hexy got no free treatment either. We talked circles about all his early moves -- Pronger, Grossmann, Coburn, Timonen, Hartnell. We talked about them all as they came up, cause that's what this forum is for. What exactly are we supposed to do? Are we to have no opinion on stuff? Why come to a fan forum if we have no opinions? We come here to hash things out. We're not always going to agree to everything, and that's completely fine. We should still be able to talk about it. My challenge is mostly with the all or nothing mentality that seems to have come out of this off season. It seems perfectly reasonable for someone to have a measured view of Fletch's moves. It doesn't have to be all bad or all good. Saying "oh he's new let's just not bother talking about it" is... kind of not why we're here? It seems very normal to look at what Fletch is doing and measure those decisions based one A) What Hexy would have done, since he's the obvious comparable; and, B) What impact the decision will make on the team. These are fodder for discussion. Sure, the Hexy thing won't last forever, but it seems very normal to use him as a yardstick in this first off-season with a new GM. Would Hexy have signed Hayes to 7x7 with a bunch of move protections? We can't say for sure, but it seems highly unlikely given previous Hexy signings. Will Hayes make the team better? Short term yes, long term probably not. Would Hexy have gotten a pair of vet dmen? Yeah, maybe. It doesn't sound so silly. Will they make the team better? Probably a bit yeah, though better coaching is about 100x more important imo. Would Hexy have gotten rid of Hakstol? Probably not, cause for some reason he had the biggest blinders in the world when it came to his HC. Does getting a new coaching staff make the team better? It most definitely should! So there you have it: What I would consider a fairly reasonable evaluation that doesn't assume Fletch's moves to be 100% good or bad... Edited July 9, 2019 by elmatus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, elmatus said: To be honest, I put those in there to have more questionable things to say about Hextall. I have no good answers for those questions. And that's part of the problem. Hexy did so many things well. It leaves big shoes for Fletcher. He's not stepping into a situation where the franchise is in shambles and in desperate need of serious attentions. This is just the very opposite situation. Will he fill those shoes well? I hope so. He has one hell of a head start as far as prospects are concerned anyway. This forum exists for the express purpose of discussing stuff like this. Hexy got no free treatment either. We talked circles about all his early moves -- Pronger, Grossmann, Coburn, Timonen, Hartnell. We talked about them all as they came up, cause that's what this forum is for. What exactly are we supposed to do? Are we to have no opinion on stuff? Why come to a fan forum if we have no opinions? We come here to hash things out. We're not always going to agree to everything, and that's completely fine. We should still be able to talk about it. My challenge is mostly with the all or nothing mentality that seems to have come out of this off season. It seems perfectly reasonable for someone to have a measured view of Fletch's moves. It doesn't have to be all bad or all good. Saying "oh he's new let's just not bother talking about it" is... kind of not why we're here? It seems very normal to look at what Fletch is doing and measure those decisions based one A) What Hexy would have done, since he's the obvious comparable; and, B) What impact the decision will make on the team. These are fodder for discussion. Sure, the Hexy thing won't last forever, but it seems very normal to use him as a yardstick in this first off-season with a new GM. Would Hexy have signed Hayes to 7x7 with a bunch of move protections? We can't say for sure, but it seems highly unlikely given previous Hexy signings. Will Hayes make the team better? Short term yes, long term probably not. Would Hexy have gotten a pair of vet dmen? Yeah, maybe. It doesn't sound so silly. Will they make the team better? Probably a bit yeah, though better coaching is about 100x more important imo. Would Hexy have gotten rid of Hakstol? Probably not, cause for some reason he had the biggest blinders in the world when it came to his HC. Does getting a new coaching staff make the team better? It most definitely should! So there you have it: What I would consider a fairly reasonable evaluation that doesn't assume Fletch's moves to be 100% good or bad... Have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Have at it. Oh I will have at it alright, dontchyou worry pal! Just watch me. Edited July 9, 2019 by Podein25 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Put me down in the Hextall camp. As I said earlier in this thread, it was his steady work of clearing out the flotsam and jetsam, as well as building a strong group of prospects and allowing them to develop, which has allowed Fletcher to roll the dice like he did this summer. He's not perfect, but he was what the organization needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: You know none of this. None of it. So were you getting all this insight on the future your magic 8 ball? Oh yeah I know just wait a few years so you can tell us you're right. Spot on. Hayes hasnt laced a skate and he is the second coming of VLC. Most of Hextalls moves havent played and nhl shift and the are the saviors because he was genius What king of genius hires Dave Hakstol? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, CoachX said: Most of Hextalls moves havent played and nhl shift and the are the saviors because he was genius Travis Sanheim, Oscan Lindblom, Ivan Provorov, Travis Konecny, Carter Hart. All Hextall draft picks. All played significant minutes and are expected to next season. And we haven't even mentioned Nolan Patrick, who turns all of 21 this September or Aube-Kubel that many around here are slotting in as a can't-miss third line winger. And he signed Myers as a FA. That's a quarter (or more) of the 23-man roster of home-grown draft picks over the last four years. So, aside from those six (probably seven) guys, you just might have a point about his "moves haven't played and nhl shift". Every GM In the league would love to have Farabee, O'Brien, Frost, and Ratcliffe in the pipeline - not to mention Sandstrom. And if they get anything out of 21yo Rubstov or 22yo Vorobyev, it's a bonus. That's looking to be about half the roster of home grown Hextall draft picks over the next few seasons. He also signed Ghost and Couturier long term at very reasonable rates, locked up Voracek, and brought in the #2 available UFA last season who has scored 25+ five times (and 27 in 66 last season) for less money and a shorter term than what Fletcher just signed a guy who has hit 25 once, two years ago. So, yeah, Hextall had a pretty big impact on creating the roster that some apparently think was a Kevin Hayes away from being a can't miss playoff team. His obvious miscue was sticking with Hakstol and you won't find anyone around here who will argue that fact. I'm pretty clear that Fletcher has improved the roster. This team could very well make the playoffs next season. How far they go and what they do over the next 3-4 seasons will be how we judge Fletcher accurately, just as the previous four seasons is how we can judge Hextall. Not a genius, but laid a solid foundation upon which to build. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 hours ago, elmatus said: To be honest, I put those in there to have more questionable things to say about Hextall. I have no good answers for those questions. And that's the problem - there weren't any ready-made good answers to those questions and Hextall didn't want to take "whoever's available" for seven years and $50M. Fletcher made the bet. And like any bet, he could actually win. But anyone who says it isn't a gamble is simply fooling themselves. I hope he wins. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 40 minutes ago, radoran said: Travis Sanheim, Oscan Lindblom, Ivan Provorov, Travis Konecny, Carter Hart. All Hextall draft picks. All played significant minutes and are expected to next season. And we haven't even mentioned Nolan Patrick, who turns all of 21 this September or Aube-Kubel that many around here are slotting in as a can't-miss third line winger. And he signed Myers as a FA. That's a quarter (or more) of the 23-man roster of home-grown draft picks over the last four years. So, aside from those six (probably seven) guys, you just might have a point about his "moves haven't played and nhl shift". Every GM In the league would love to have Farabee, O'Brien, Frost, and Ratcliffe in the pipeline - not to mention Sandstrom. And if they get anything out of 21yo Rubstov or 22yo Vorobyev, it's a bonus. That's looking to be about half the roster of home grown Hextall draft picks over the next few seasons. He also signed Ghost and Couturier long term at very reasonable rates, locked up Voracek, and brought in the #2 available UFA last season who has scored 25+ five times (and 27 in 66 last season) for less money and a shorter term than what Fletcher just signed a guy who has hit 25 once, two years ago. So, yeah, Hextall had a pretty big impact on creating the roster that some apparently think was a Kevin Hayes away from being a can't miss playoff team. His obvious miscue was sticking with Hakstol and you won't find anyone around here who will argue that fact. I'm pretty clear that Fletcher has improved the roster. This team could very well make the playoffs next season. How far they go and what they do over the next 3-4 seasons will be how we judge Fletcher accurately, just as the previous four seasons is how we can judge Hextall. Not a genius, but laid a solid foundation upon which to build. I was referring to the current crop of propsects who were the central figures in this discussion. Paul Holmgren drafted Giroux, Ghost, Morin, JVR and Laughton. Lets call him a success and give him credit for any future playoff appearances or victories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 To be clear, i am a big Hextall fan. I would have liked to see him finish what he started 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Which can't truly even be done till the end of next season...or maybe even later then, Hextall got/getting that benefit. So if we are suppose to wait till after the Mcdud, Umburger, Vinny and goalie fiasco is over basically 4-5 years. Shouldn't we wait to truly evaluate Chuckles? Or oh no let's rush to do it now because well because we can?!? I agree, but on the other hand, I don't think Chuckles gets as long. I don't think he inherited nearly the mess that Hextall did. Chuckles inherited cap space, prospects, and picks. And a decent lineup that needed some holes plugged and probably would have been even if Hextall stayed. Hextall really inherited no team, no cap, and no currency (in terms of prospects or picks). YMMV, but I don't think it's an apples/apples comparison. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, CoachX said: I was referring to the current crop of propsects who were the central figures in this discussion. Paul Holmgren drafted Giroux, Ghost, Morin, JVR and Laughton. Lets call him a success and give him credit for any future playoff appearances or victories But you said "most of Hextall's moves" not "picks from the past two years." Morin hasn't played his ninth NHL game yet and was drafted five years ago. JVR was traded for Luke Schenn - he's on the roster now because of Hextall. Laughton is, well, underwhelming and pretty much a dime a dozen NHLer. At best you could put Voracek and Giroux in the "successful Holmgren moves" column. And they've been the lasting core of the worst stretch of hockey in the organization's history. Add in Ghost and you've got three impact players to Hextall's six going on seven, possibly 10+. I give Holmgren great marks for creating the Briere/Hartnell/Timonen core and the foundation of the 2010 team, but to try to credit him for where they are now is a serious stretch. 58 minutes ago, CoachX said: To be clear, i am a big Hextall fan. I would have liked to see him finish what he started So you're just bring contrary to be contrary. How's that working out for you? Edited July 10, 2019 by radoran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, radoran said: At best you could put Voracek and Giroux in the "successful Holmgren moves" column. And they've been the lasting core of the worst stretch of hockey in the organization's history. Add in Ghost and you've got three impact players to Hextall's six going on seven, possibly 10+. Giroux was a Clarke pick. The most successful thing Holmgren did there was not trade him away for Dion Phaneuf and a $25 Canadian Tire gift card. (OK, and signed him long term. But that was as no-brainer as it gets by that point) Edit: I would add Couturier to the list, though. Edited July 10, 2019 by AJgoal 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 5 hours ago, JR Ewing said: Put me down in the Hextall camp. As I said earlier in this thread, it was his steady work of clearing out the flotsam and jetsam, as well as building a strong group of prospects and allowing them to develop, which has allowed Fletcher to roll the dice like he did this summer. He's not perfect, but he was what the organization needed. This pretty much sums it up for me too. Hextall was the right GM at the right time. The organization really needed to pivot, and he was the perfect insider/outsider. A true Flyer in how he played the game who went out and got a different perspective before coming back. Loved Hextall the player, loved how he brought that stubbornness to his role as GM here. Ultimately, it got him fired, but not before he was able to leave the franchise in a much better place than when he started. He never got to finish, and that's ok. Fletch has shown restraint and, from some accounts, push back on Scott and Homer who wanted immediate changes. I'll try to find the article, but it said that Fletch was able to calm the waters and avoid blowing things up. Could be conjecture, who knows. I mean, I don't love the Hayes contract. But I'm gonna give the GM and the player the benefit of the doubt even if the rest of the moves left me underwhelmed. After having had a few weeks to let it all sink in, it is what it is. What I see is a roster that is better balanced - players slotted in roles for which they are better suited, and experienced veterans (Niskanen, Braun, Hayes) as support pillars for our more talented youngins (Provorov, Sanheim, Patrick). Like almost all of you have said, our future success depends on TK, Provy, Sanheim, Patrick, Lindblom, Ghost, Myers, Hart taking those next steps. The guys Fletch brought in are supposed to bring in some much needed stability. Also, thought this was an interesting piece - https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/2-ways-kevin-hayes-can-take-flyers-another-level Might read a bit like a sell job, but it raises some good points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, radoran said: But you said "most of Hextall's moves" not "picks from the past two years." Morin hasn't played his ninth NHL game yet and was drafted five years ago. JVR was traded for Luke Schenn - he's on the roster now because of Hextall. Laughton is, well, underwhelming and pretty much a dime a dozen NHLer. At best you could put Voracek and Giroux in the "successful Holmgren moves" column. And they've been the lasting core of the worst stretch of hockey in the organization's history. Add in Ghost and you've got three impact players to Hextall's six going on seven, possibly 10+. I give Holmgren great marks for creating the Briere/Hartnell/Timonen core and the foundation of the 2010 team, but to try to credit him for where they are now is a serious stretch. So you're just bring contrary to be contrary. How's that working out for you? Working out fine for me. Thanks for asking You can add, subtract, credit and criticize as much as you want. You can write novels on the forum, touting your knowledge and opinion as mighter than the rest of us. Im sure that will work out fine for you But the fact remains, if this team exceeds expectations, becomes playoff competitive for consecutive seasons, and possibly wins a cup, you can give all the credit you want to Hextall, but the current GM will be the one getting the recognition and awards in reality. But hey, you can send Hexy a thank you card. Im sure he will appreciate it Edited July 10, 2019 by CoachX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, AJgoal said: Edit: I would add Couturier to the list, though. Troodat. Four players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, CoachX said: You can add, subtract, credit and criticize as much as you want. You can write novels on the forum, touting your knowledge and opinion as mighter than the rest of us. Im sure that will work out fine for you You certainly seem to think it works for you. I'm perfectly willing to give Fletcher credit for results. You're giving him credit before the puck even drops on his first full season. Carry on then. Edited July 10, 2019 by radoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 34 minutes ago, radoran said: You certainly seem to think it works for you. I'm perfectly willing to give Fletcher credit for results. You're giving him credit before the puck even drops on his first full season. Carry on then. I havent given him credit for squat, other than improving the defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 8 hours ago, CoachX said: Working out fine for me. Thanks for asking You can add, subtract, credit and criticize as much as you want. You can write novels on the forum, touting your knowledge and opinion as mighter than the rest of us. Im sure that will work out fine for you But the fact remains, if this team exceeds expectations, becomes playoff competitive for consecutive seasons, and possibly wins a cup, you can give all the credit you want to Hextall, but the current GM will be the one getting the recognition and awards in reality. But hey, you can send Hexy a thank you card. Im sure he will appreciate it It's almost like you've read Ed Wade's biography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 What about taking a run at Gusev? Looks like he and Vegas are pretty far apart and Vegas would need to move salary to make things happen. He's looking for 2 years / $ 4M per. Not a huge commitment, and could be a pretty explosive RW. He's an RFA, so it would cost us something to acquire his rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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