What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

If it is THIS year's first rounder I'm okay.

 

I hate passing up on some of the forwards in that pick area, but I make that trade.

 

...I think.

 

Doesn't this seem like a year there could be several top 5 or top 10 talent slip out of that range because of the whole covid ordeal? I do.

 

 Now do I trust our management to pick one of those guys? No.

[ruxpin]

14 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Doesn't this seem like a year there could be several top 5 or top 10 talent slip out of that range because of the whole covid ordeal? I do.

 

 Now do I trust our management to pick one of those guys? No.

 

The first statement.  Yes. Absolutely yes.  And among some of the forwards available 11-15 I think it's very possible.

 

The second statement:  No. Absolutely no.

[mojo1917]

15 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Now do I trust our management to pick one of those guys? No.

Are you talking about Fletcher and Flahr or the scouts?

I'm looking at a team in Minnesota that has some size, speed and skill right now. 

 

One or two of those dudes was chosen by the current Flyers management.

They did find Kaprizov with the 135th pick...

 

We want to talk misses? Rubstov, O'Brien, Morin...those are the previous guy's legacy. 

[tucson83]

23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Are you talking about Fletcher and Flahr or the scouts?

I'm looking at a team in Minnesota that has some size, speed and skill right now. 

 

One or two of those dudes was chosen by the current Flyers management.

They did find Kaprizov with the 135th pick...

 

We want to talk misses? Rubstov, O'Brien, Morin...those are the previous guy's legacy. 

 

i trust fletch that he will fix this team, problem is it could take longer for us because of hextall's failed picks. if you look at minnesota that team has playing well because of fletcher's picks. that's the reality of situation, no coach is going to fix this mess, unless guerin is dumb enough to give fletch the farm system to us, it's probably going to a 5 year process.

Edited July 11, 2021 by tucson83

[OccamsRazor]

43 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Are you talking about Fletcher and Flahr or the scouts?

I'm looking at a team in Minnesota that has some size, speed and skill right now. 

 

One or two of those dudes was chosen by the current Flyers management.

They did find Kaprizov with the 135th pick...

 

We want to talk misses? Rubstov, O'Brien, Morin...those are the previous guy's legacy. 

 

That is what I'm saying the guy has had two drafts and I guess will be forever judge by Parise and Suter signing he was forced to go with by his boss (or for at least what I have read.)

 

Show me a GM that doesn't miss.

 

I mean even Yzerman you have to go all the way back to 2015 with Cirelli who has made an impact lately.

 

Sometimes you miss and sometimes it takes guys awhile to develop.

[tucson83]

32 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is what I'm saying the guy has had two drafts and I guess will be forever judge by Parise and Suter signing he was forced to go with by his boss (or for at least what I have read.)

 

Show me a GM that doesn't miss.

 

I mean even Yzerman you have to go all the way back to 2015 with Cirelli who has made an impact lately.

 

Sometimes you miss and sometimes it takes guys awhile to develop.

and that's the thing hextall fans want his prospects to be stars right out of the draft and it doesnt work like that, thing is every team is different, tampa is lucky to hit on forwards. i dont know anything about these prospects that fletch drafed are going to be any good either, point is we have to focus on how to approve this team right now without forcing to play the prospects that might not be ready.

 

 

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

i trust fletch that he will fix this team, problem is it could take longer for us because of hextall's failed picks. if you look at minnesota that team has playing well because of fletcher's picks. that's the reality of situation, no coach is going to fix this mess, unless guerin is dumb enough to give fletch the farm system to us, it's probably going to a 5 year process.

Some good points on this page from you and the razor.

 

Unlike you, I don't think the team is a dumpster fire.

I don't think every player that was good at hockey in 19/20 forgot how to play it in 20/21 and is now worthless. 

Guys were recovering from cancer, freaked out that a trip to the grocery store could kill them and by themselves as 22 year olds as they struggled. There was no esprit d'corps because of the pandemic. The culture I've observed with this group has shown when they can socialize and have some fun they're pretty good at the rink.  

I don't need a lecture about them being pros and that shouldn't matter either.

They're human and reality is what it is.  So kindly save that response.

 

There was a team-wide funk that was exacerbated by the schedule and a loss of leadership.

Changing some players could have a startling effect on the group.

I'd like to see Matt Calvert, Dan Ellis, perhaps Sam Bennett from Fla then maybe try to pluck Cernak from TB who need help with their cap compliance, on the roster next year.  With Voracek and/or JvR plus Ghost likely gone, that's enough fresh blood to change the locker room dynamic as well as adding players with pace and toughness.

 

Edit: Vigneault can coach, he's been good everywhere he's been. Like all NHL coaches he has a shelf-life though. I think he was affected negatively by the pandemic and had a hard time knowing how hard to push because he was struggling too. 

Humans are resilient I don't think all the things that went wrong last year will manifest again, that was a perfect ****-storm.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by mojo1917

[tucson83]

4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Some good points on this page from you and the razor.

 

Unlike you, I don't think the team is a dumpster fire.

I don't think every player that was good at hockey in 19/20 forgot how to play it in 20/21 and is now worthless. 

Guys were recovering from cancer, freaked out that a trip to the grocery store could kill them and by themselves as 22 year olds as they struggled. There was no esprit d'corps because of the pandemic. The culture I've observed with this group has shown when they can socialize and have some fun they're pretty good at the rink.  

I don't need a lecture about them being pros and that shouldn't matter either.

They're human and reality is what it is.  So kindly save that response.

 

There was a team-wide funk that was exacerbated by the schedule and a loss of leadership.

Changing some players could have a startling effect on the group.

I'd like to see Matt Calvert, Dan Ellis, perhaps Sam Bennett from Fla then maybe try to pluck Cernak from TB who need help with their cap compliance, on the roster next year.  With Voracek and/or JvR plus Ghost likely gone, that's enough fresh blood to change the locker room dynamic as well as adding players with pace and toughness.

 

Edit: Vigneault can coach, he's been good everywhere he's been. Like all NHL coaches he has a shelf-life though. I think he was affected negatively by the pandemic and had a hard time knowing how hard to push because he was struggling too. 

Humans are resilient I don't think all the things that went wrong last year will manifest again, that was a perfect ****-storm.

 

 

 

i think if fletch adds some d and another center i think this team will be fine.

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

We want to talk misses? Rubstov, O'Brien, Morin...those are the previous guy's legacy

Of those, the only one that's really fair to call a miss is Rubstov, and arguably because of injury (I'd personally argue it's more than just injury).

 

O'Brien was young and raw when we drafted him and was going to be a project.  The jury is still out there.  I don't think reaching with that pick was smart but not yet a bust.

 

Morin has made the NHL, and that's what you want with a pick.  And that despite multiple injuries.  He, too, was a project, but he's actually a success.

 

I agree about the drafting in Minny, though.

[mojo1917]

I don't really like calling them busts or misses either @ruxpin Sam is a good young man and I hope his career continues in hockey.

At the end of the day though, hockey is a results oriented business, everyone likes to tell me that anyway, and these guys are first picks that haven't worked out.  Patrick is another one, terrible luck with his health notwithstanding, he's been a disappointment for a #2 overall. 

The jury is still out on Morgan Frost, I think he'll be good but I was expecting more based on how good he was in junior.

 

To be successful in the NHL your first picks need to contribute to keep costs down and the team out of the free agent market. They don't necessarily need to be super stars they need to make the NHL and contribute.

Hextall's results are mediocre with regard to that very reasonable bar. 

He's had his share of cracks at first picks too. Multiple first rounders in 3 separate years. He started strong with 9 and 11 and then, well Joel Farabee looks like a keeper. 

Fletcher has 2 first picks with the Flyers, Cam York and Tyson Forrester and they both look like guys that can contribute in the NHL.

 

All that to say, When I look at that Minnesota team and the picks from Fletch and Flahr trickling into the NHL, I think those guys have done well.

 

[tucson83]

56 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't really like calling them busts or misses either @ruxpin Sam is a good young man and I hope his career continues in hockey.

At the end of the day though, hockey is a results oriented business, everyone likes to tell me that anyway, and these guys are first picks that haven't worked out.  Patrick is another one, terrible luck with his health notwithstanding, he's been a disappointment for a #2 overall. 

The jury is still out on Morgan Frost, I think he'll be good but I was expecting more based on how good he was in junior.

 

To be successful in the NHL your first picks need to contribute to keep costs down and the team out of the free agent market. They don't necessarily need to be super stars they need to make the NHL and contribute.

Hextall's results are mediocre with regard to that very reasonable bar. 

He's had his share of cracks at first picks too. Multiple first rounders in 3 separate years. He started strong with 9 and 11 and then, well Joel Farabee looks like a keeper. 

Fletcher has 2 first picks with the Flyers, Cam York and Tyson Forrester and they both look like guys that can contribute in the NHL.

 

All that to say, When I look at that Minnesota team and the picks from Fletch and Flahr trickling into the NHL, I think those guys have done well.

 

if i go by tampa's model their d and goaltending is where they spend the money at, center position as well since that's also important as well you need experience in those positions. wingers are a position where i think you dont need to spend alot of money on since in my opinion it's the easiest position in hockey.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

O'Brien

At least he can skate and has some punk in his game.

You're right here, he may work out as a home grown Yanni Gourde, Phillip Danault type guy.

His route to the NHL will be/ has been frustratingly circuitous. 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't really like calling them busts or misses either @ruxpin Sam is a good young man and I hope his career continues in hockey.

At the end of the day though, hockey is a results oriented business, everyone likes to tell me that anyway, and these guys are first picks that haven't worked out.  Patrick is another one, terrible luck with his health notwithstanding, he's been a disappointment for a #2 overall. 

The jury is still out on Morgan Frost, I think he'll be good but I was expecting more based on how good he was in junior.

 

To be successful in the NHL your first picks need to contribute to keep costs down and the team out of the free agent market. They don't necessarily need to be super stars they need to make the NHL and contribute.

Hextall's results are mediocre with regard to that very reasonable bar. 

He's had his share of cracks at first picks too. Multiple first rounders in 3 separate years. He started strong with 9 and 11 and then, well Joel Farabee looks like a keeper. 

Fletcher has 2 first picks with the Flyers, Cam York and Tyson Forrester and they both look like guys that can contribute in the NHL.

 

All that to say, When I look at that Minnesota team and the picks from Fletch and Flahr trickling into the NHL, I think those guys have done well.

 

Wisdom and Desoyners look like good  late round picks as well.

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't really like calling them busts or misses either @ruxpin Sam is a good young man and I hope his career continues in hockey.

 

 

We could only hope that our players would show  half the character, work ethic and determination that Morin has shown. He has been dealt some terrible luck and he has not given up. He has a winning attitude, he is exactly the kind of guy our team needs.I really hope that he makes the team as the 6th dman.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I think those guys have done well.

 

Yep Flyers could of had Kaprizov.

 

But they chose Sandstrom, Tomek, Dove-Mcfalls, Vorobyev (wrong Russian) and Kase before Kirill went off the board in the 5th....and wow sure we have hindsight but damn that is a major whiff!!!

 

Man looking at that and it makes you question how good Ron and Pryor really were huh...and that is just one draft....i mean damn it is looking like 5 straight strike outs in one draft.

 

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

We could only hope that our players would show  half the character, work ethic and determination that Morin has shown. He has been dealt some terrible luck and he has not given up. He has a winning attitude, he is exactly the kind of guy our team needs.I really hope that he makes the team as the 6th dman.

 

I really hope they bring him back no other D man on this roster can play like him.

 

I keep him over Hagg hands down and i don't mean that as a slight on Hagg.

 

Sam embodies what is missing from this Flyer lineup. He is an old school Flyer.

 

They need him back even if it's a 7th D man he is very close don't give up on him now he turns 26 tomorrow that is old he is enter some good years.

[OccamsRazor]

Chuckles needs to pick up the phone and call the Yotes....they have 30 mill in cap space now way i wait for Seattle to make a pick i would be proactive and try to move Jake or JVR out West and they need the talent.

 

I would trade Jake or JVR to them for Victor Soderstrom or Barrett Hayton they need help now and those two are a year or two away.

[OccamsRazor]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:46 PM, ruxpin said:

If it is THIS year's first rounder I'm okay.

 

I just can't do it.

 

As much as that dude annoys the sh it out of me i am not going to sweeten the deal for a team to take him off my hands...this isn't like moving Vinny Lecavalier Jake is coming off his best even strength season of his career.

 

And 43 points in 53 games this past season so it isn't like he is killing the franchise even though we have had enough of seeing him out there.

 

Man i just threw up in my mouth typing all that in his defense.

 

So if Seattle doesn't want him i try Arizona, Ottawa or L.A (plug him on the first line and bump Brown to their 3rd).

[ruxpin]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I just can't do it.

 

As much as that dude annoys the sh it out of me i am not going to sweeten the deal for a team to take him off my hands...this isn't like moving Vinny Lecavalier Jake is coming off his best even strength season of his career.

 

And 43 points in 53 games this past season so it isn't like he is killing the franchise even though we have had enough of seeing him out there.

 

Man i just threw up in my mouth typing all that in his defense.

 

So if Seattle doesn't want him i try Arizona, Ottawa or L.A (plug him on the first line and bump Brown to their 3rd).

I have no reason to not do it.

 

I'd prefer is a deal with the kraken. You trade Jake to Arizona and the kraken still get to pick off another Flyer.  I'm not really impressed that it was his best regular strength season.  It's downhill from here with him. He's not getting any younger or less of a Cap hit or less of a cancer.

 

If you're able to trade him to Arizona and Seattle drafts JVR or Ghost, that's fine.  Actually, from both a cap standpoint it's probably best scenario.   

 

Alright, if it can be done your way, try it.  But I'm willing to kick the tires with the Kraken. I'd try to get away with less than our first, but ultimately whatever it takes to not have Jake on the flyers when camp starts.

 

And not just because I cannot stand him.

Just mostly because I cannot stand him.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Yep Flyers could of had Kaprizov.

You are right… however, how many Flyer fans would have waited 6 years for him to make his his NHL debut. He was committed for 3 years with his Russian team. Hexy and company would have been roasted for drafting a player who was committed to playing in Russia. 
 

Hindsight is always 20/20. He was drafted in the 5th round for a reason.

 

I like Zaprizov … I really do. I had him on one of my Fantasy Hockey teams.

 

But to blame this organization for not drafting him is a stretch IMO.

 

I get your POV … outside of Provy and TK the 2025 draft class has been underwhelming. 

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

If you're able to trade him to Arizona and Seattle drafts JVR or Ghost, that's fine.  Actually, from both a cap standpoint it's probably best scenario.   

 

I'd love this!!!

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

You are right… however, how many Flyer fans would have waited 6 years for him to make his his NHL debut.

 

We're still waiting on all the ones I mentioned...what else is there to lose.

 

And yeah I know they wouldn't be happy waiting.

 

7 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

But to blame this organization for not drafting him is a stretch IMO.

 

As I said above I guess when one of the guys they chose over him arrives we can say that till then we'll I can't agree.

 

 

[pilldoc]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

As I said above I guess when one of the guys they chose over him arrives we can say that till then we'll I can't agree.

fair enough and BTW you are not wrong either…. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Morin has made the NHL, and that's what you want with a pick.  And that despite multiple injuries.  He, too, was a project, but he's actually a success.

 

I agree about the drafting in Minny, though.

 

To be fair, Morin wasn't a Hextall pick. That was a Holmgren/Pronger selection (Pronger was interning with the Flyers at the time).

 

The big first round pick that really missed under Hextall was Rubtsov. And even then, if he becomes a Trevor Lewis type of player, is that really a miss? In Lewis's nhl career, he never had more than 26 points, yet played a pivotal role in the defensive side of things. Rubtsov's biggest issue has been health. If he can stay healthy, we're talking about the perfect 4th line center. Any offense that is gotten out of Rubtsov would be gravy. Use his defensive acumen to the team's advantage. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

To be fair, Morin wasn't a Hextall pick. That was a Holmgren/Pronger selection (Pronger was interning with the Flyers at the time).

 

The big first round pick that really missed under Hextall was Rubtsov. And even then, if he becomes a Trevor Lewis type of player, is that really a miss? In Lewis's nhl career, he never had more than 26 points, yet played a pivotal role in the defensive side of things. Rubtsov's biggest issue has been health. If he can stay healthy, we're talking about the perfect 4th line center. Any offense that is gotten out of Rubtsov would be gravy. Use his defensive acumen to the team's advantage. 

 

The main thing for Ruby is to get healthy have a good season and try to get back on track for his development.

 

If you look at Ruby's draft year just for example and I am not saying these guys are all the same but the Bolts heralded forwards Katchouk and Raddysh haven't arrived yet for them either.

 

Ruby just turned 23 this past June.

 

So not all is lost and well at least they are still working on their game.

 

I expect him to be one of the first call ups after Frost finds a spot in the lineup maybe.

 

Cautiously optimistic!!!