two years from now

[aziz]

just thinking about what this team needs to do, and it seemed to make sense to project this roster forward two years, 2014-15, see where the holes really are and where there is movable redundancy. so, it occurs to me:

schenn - giroux - voracek

hartnell - ? - simmonds

? - couturier - talbot

? - rinaldo - ?

? - coburn

meszaros - grossman

schenn - ?

?

?

noticeably not on the chart:

briere - just has to be bought out. isn't bringing anything at all these days, and is EXPENSIVE

read - tradebait. nice player, but imo is depth talent with a top-6's versatility. which is to say, he is a one-way player who really only fills a scoring role, but doesn't have the skillset to hold a spot on scoring lines.

the many faceless kids doing time in Adirondack - who knows. mcginn, zolnierczyk, bourdon, laughton, kessel, gustafsson, wellwood, holmstrom, etc. just who knows. none of them are build-the-team-around, in any case.

anyway. I don't hate that core. assuming, obviously, giroux/schenn/couturier/simmonds continue to move their contribution level forward. still, lot of holes. first pair dman, second line center, starting goalie seem to me to be the most important to address, and in that order.

this season can't end soon enough, and...something tells me next season can't, either. team in transition, fellas. the average age above is 25. there is a lot of growing to do from most of those 12 guys.

[ctid]

I guess I agree. the way I see it, the core is supposedly set in two's:

? Giroux Voracek

? Schenn Simmonds

? Read Couturier

? Talbot Rinaldo

I believe these are the core pairings and type of players that best compliment eachother and best match regarding skill wise. Hartnell probably fits in there due to his recently signed contract and will probably fit in on the 1st line the next two years and then end up in a 2nd/3rd line role.

However, due to the nature of our defence, we'd probably have to sacrifice a young forward, as you say, so one of read/couts/schenn is gone. Right now, I'd keep Schenn over read/couts. But it's close, I just really like the game Schenn brings and see him and simmonds clicking really well. his points will come.

If it was up to me, right now, I'd sacrifice read and couts (like them both, especially read) for top end (young'ish) defense-man and then focus on having two scoring lines and two complete shutdown lines, with the 2nd line being tough as nails to play against while scoring (Schenn/Simmonds). We have ALOT of defensive minded 3rd/4th line forward type players that forecheck, why not just create two lines that play smart, shutdown hockey without expecting them to score that often and lave that to line 1/2 and PP.

So, going forward, I'd like to see for the two scoring lines:

Hartnell Giroux Voracek

? Schenn Simmonds

and then a combination of the following for the two shutdown lines:

Wellwood

Talbot

Rinaldo

Laughton

Couts/if still here

McGinn

H.Zol

I really believe our future top two lines should consist of the pairings Giroux/voracek and Schenn/Simmonds.

[ZeZel25]

just thinking about what this team needs to do, and it seemed to make sense to project this roster forward two years, 2014-15, see where the holes really are and where there is movable redundancy. so, it occurs to me:

schenn - giroux - voracek

hartnell - ? - simmonds

? - couturier - talbot

? - rinaldo - ?

? - coburn

meszaros - grossman

schenn - ?

?

?

noticeably not on the chart:

briere - just has to be bought out. isn't bringing anything at all these days, and is EXPENSIVE

read - tradebait. nice player, but imo is depth talent with a top-6's versatility. which is to say, he is a one-way player who really only fills a scoring role, but doesn't have the skillset to hold a spot on scoring lines.

the many faceless kids doing time in Adirondack - who knows. mcginn, zolnierczyk, bourdon, laughton, kessel, gustafsson, wellwood, holmstrom, etc. just who knows. none of them are build-the-team-around, in any case.

anyway. I don't hate that core. assuming, obviously, giroux/schenn/couturier/simmonds continue to move their contribution level forward. still, lot of holes. first pair dman, second line center, starting goalie seem to me to be the most important to address, and in that order.

this season can't end soon enough, and...something tells me next season can't, either. team in transition, fellas. the average age above is 25. there is a lot of growing to do from most of those 12 guys.

I don't see Mez or Coburn here in 2 years and maybe not even Grossman because of injuries. Meszaros is a walking medical report and Coburn looks like a rookie or less.

[aziz]

Injuries are one thing, but coburn's play... Until you have someone who pushes him out of a roster spot.... Gotta have six dmen, you know? If you think meszaros and grossmann are ultimately out, and Coburn should be let go, then that's zero dmen. Well, schenn, who is at least as weak as Coburn. Which is a tough situation to call better than having Coburn around.

[hf101]

schenn - giroux - voracek

hartnell - ? - simmonds

? - couturier - talbot

? - rinaldo - ?

? - coburn

meszaros - grossman

schenn - ?

?

?

I don't see Meszaros here in two years, he is a FA after next season. I think a lot depends on whether or not Holmgren is the GM or not in determining what could happen. If Holmgren is here one can easily see him making an overpayment to acquire Weber. Which would be a huge mistake.

Unless traded.....I could see Shane Gotisbehere on the roster. I think also you could add Laughton and Cousins.

Bourdon could also be on the roster next season. Not that he really makes any difference. There really isn't a lot to choose from the FA market this summer. The only way to improve our D will be through a trade with a team like the Wild or Coyotes which have an abundance of young d-men.

The grass probably won't be a whole lot greener next season.

[Samifan]

Bourdon has major concussion issues. I see him selling insurance next year! I fully agree the way to improve our D is via trade.

[jammer2]

@Samifan I'd like to see a total re-build....will not happen, but I think the way to improve the defense is elite prospects via the draft. Trade away the stiffs like Coburn and Mez....get them outta town and start a AHL defense next year, assuring we are total crap and go after the real deals in the draft.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I tend to agree with aziz and ctid. Hartnell makes me nervous because he seems to have fallen back into his old ways. If he can find his game from last season, then definitely. I still like Couts. Give him another season, see if he can rebound from this one. Read would make for nice tradebait, but he'd be hard to part with. I like all our young forwards. I'd hate to see Read, Schenn, or Couts go - but we need the help on defense more than offense - despite the fact our scoring has dropped off considerably this season.

[canoli]

still, lot of holes. first pair dman, second line center, starting goalie seem to me to be the most important to address, and in that order.

curious why you start with the D-man and not the goalie. No argument I'm just wondering why filling the net with someone either "proven" - like a Halak - or somebody young and promising - isn't the first step.

[aziz]

Because I think goalies are enough of a season -to-season crapshoot that there is almost no such thing as a 'proven' solution. I have no particular confidence that halak, as the example, will be effective one year from now. Not enough, anyway, to spend assets on him.

Kipper in Calgary was elite a couple seasons ago. Now, Callaway will have a tough time giving his contact away. Unless lundqvist or rinne became available, shopping for a goalie just so rarely works out. And even with those two, I'd be real careful with the term of any contact.

[aziz]

Calgary, not Calloway. Stupid autocorrect.

[BearOnIce]

@Samifan I'd like to see a total re-build....will not happen, but I think the way to improve the defense is elite prospects via the draft. Trade away the stiffs like Coburn and Mez....get them outta town and start a AHL defense next year, assuring we are total crap and go after the real deals in the draft.

Agree. And it begins with bringing in a new managment group. Holmgren out. Clarke officially out, clandestine office shut-down. Lukko and Comcast presence felt finally at last. The days of 1975 are gone.

[Mad Dog]

@Samifan I'd like to see a total re-build....will not happen, but I think the way to improve the defense is elite prospects via the draft. Trade away the stiffs like Coburn and Mez....get them outta town and start a AHL defense next year, assuring we are total crap and go after the real deals in the draft.

Totally agree, Jammer. This defensive corps, by virtue of a combination of chronic injuries and sheer suckage, is beyond atrocious, which Homer knew all along coming into the season. I just don't see anything positive with *any* of our d-men. Coburn would be OK as a third pairing d-man, but I can't imagine that would happen. The other alternative is to pair him with an absolute stud so his inaptitude is at least not so glaring and doesn't cost the team.

I am also largely disappointed (or actually make it disgusted) with Luke Schenn. The guy seems to be destined to have a dynasty and label of an underachiever attached to him. It's a shame... And to have players like Foster and Gervais on your team is plain embarrassing to a franchise.

Need to start a massive overhaul of the defense RIGHT NOW. That's the only solution IMHO. It will take 2-3 years, if not longer, but there is no other alternative, really. This defense is the worst I have seen in years from the Flyers.

[Mad Dog]

Agree. And it begins with bringing in a new managment group. Holmgren out. Clarke officially out, clandestine office shut-down. Lukko and Comcast presence felt finally at last. The days of 1975 are gone.

This all sounds nice and good, by as long as The Old Man is running the team, this is not happening.

[canoli]

Because I think goalies are enough of a season -to-season crapshoot that there is almost no such thing as a 'proven' solution.

I see. But then what is the answer? How does a team like the Flyers, who seem to be pretty bad at managing their goaltenders, find and keep a good one? Did we really have the best-possible situation when we had Bob?

[mojo1917]

what kind of sucks about the suckage of the defense is there isn't a quick fix, plus what sucks about the suckage of the goaltender situation is there isn't a quick fix, we're looking down the barrel of this team sucking while having some pretty dynamic forwards, so that sucks.

also the fact that we dealt Bob, as courtesy to him or to help with Ilya's fragile psyche , really , really makes my belly hurt and head itch.

ugh, well looks like i'll get to see 1000's more pens stickers on cars where i live so there that.

****.

[aziz]

@canoli

the flyers had a possibly-best-possible situation with bob (2nd in the league in sv%, for the moment, how crazy would it be to see a flyer in that spot, like, ever?). which is why I was so very bent when the bryzgalov thing went down.

what is the answer? wake up one day with a guy who gets the job done. bam. like that.

look up and down the statistical goaltending leaders, and you see three ways a team came to have a given guy on their roster. weirdo deep round pick/undrafted FA that turned out way beyond expectations (lundqvist, rinne, miller), meh journeyman who was traded for or signed at relatively low cost because they were meh but out of nowhere turned into something badass (andersson), or 1st rounders who developed as projected (fleury, rask).

I would comment on the success rate of that last one, at least as many 1st round goalies turn into nothing (kidd, boucher) as turn out as hoped, but whatever. the point is the one thing you don't see are goalies who joined their current team at a point where they were already recognized as high end goalies.

if you scroll deeper into the statistical leaderboard, towards the other end of the spectrum, what you will start to find are the goalies who were signed/traded for as top flight goalies who totally didn't pan out for their new teams.

luongos do get moved, sometimes. happened with him twice already, after all. always at extreme cost, though. (unless the GM who is moving him is mike milbury, of course. so, if milbury gets another GM job at some point, all bets are off. or mike keenan. who thought mike keenan would make a good GM, the single most unpleasant person on the planet? anyway.) competent GMs don't move effective goalies while they are effective for palatable prices.

Edited March 28, 2013 by aziz

[canoli]

interesting...so considering all that maybe the Flyers haven't done so terribly with their goalies? A few exceptions aside - the Bob fiasco is #1 I guess, and I'm sure there were better options than Jeff Hackett at the time. Also getting Beezer when we did...on the downside of his career - and the Retread Phenomenon with Boosh and Leighton - but all in all the Flyers have been doing what everyone else does, hoping for lightning to strike while forgoing the expensive FA / Trade route. Until Bryzgalov of course. Is that a fair reading of the Flyers?

I guess I could add "not going after Cujo" but ... well, 'nuff said about Cujo - and maybe even "not pursuing Richter hard enough" is valid criticism...we went after Beezer instead IIRC. Hindsight is 20/20 so maybe I can't fault the Flyers for that. But Richter was younger, quicker AND he was from Philly.

[mojo1917]

... we'll be one piece away from winning the cup, oh wait, um that was every year since 1980 .

...the flyers will have a young defense corps on the rise, a competent goaltender earning competent goaltender money , plus a guy in the system that could be pretty good and most of our forwards hitting their prime production years.

i guess it is not all doom and gloom, but efforts like Tuesday vs the Rangers makes watching and enjoying the team difficult.

[Digityman]

? Giroux Voracek

? Schenn Simmonds

? Read Couturier

? Talbot Rinaldo

I like this but I think Couturier is going to be traded. Laughton will take his spot.

@aziz I think they hold Read for a while. I do see what you are saying about trade bait but I'm thinking they hold on to him

[brelic]

Let's assume we draft 3rd overall (where we currently sit).

And let's assume #1 takes Jones, #2 takes MacKinnon.

And assume we take Drouin at #3. He's actually ranked #4, behind Nichushkin (#2) and MacKinnon (#3), so who knows how it will go.

(Here's the full ranking list http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=11343).

Without doing *anything* else (other than qualifying Rinaldo, Z, and Gus), here's what our team might look like.

Read/Giroux/Voracek

Drouin/Schenn/Simmonds

Hartnell/Couturier/Briere

Rinaldo/Talbot/McGinn

I think it's easy to see the square peg in that lineup.

The easiest move is to buy out Briere and re-sign Gagne for 2 or 3 years at a $5M AAV. (I can't believe how silly that Hartnell extension is).

Then on defense, we have:

Timo/Schenn

Coburn/Grossman

Meszaros/Gus

In goal, of course, our superstar:

Bryz

You're the GM. What other moves, if any, do you make? And maybe you don't draft Drouin at #3. Maybe you take Nurse, and see if he can make the team out of camp.

[aziz]

@canoli

No, I don't think the flyers have done anything particularly wrong on the goalie front. Prior to the Bob/bryzgalov thing, anyway. They tried everything at least least once... Used first round picks, traded for previously high end names, signed named FAs, looked for late round diamonds in the rough, all of it. Unlucky none of it worked out. Until maybe Bob.

[BearOnIce]

This all sounds nice and good, by as long as The Old Man is running the team, this is not happening.

Yup, and then nothing happens with this organization, so everybody has choices who to follow for their "home team".

I vote with my wallet.