Lindros and Brind'Amour

[jammer2]

@ctid "But, as far as I'm concerned...Eric Lindros is the best Hockey player I have ever seen when on top of his game. That mario guy was pretty decent too "

You didn't see Gretzky play?

[Polaris922]

But, as far as I'm concerned...Eric Lindros is the best Hockey player I have ever seen when on top of his game. That mario guy was pretty decent too

As I said, Lindros was a great player. But he's no two points per game guy in his era or the current day if he were here. There are two men in history that were capable of that. Gretzky and Lemieux... and as I said, even suffering through the clutch and grab era Lemieux HAD that average before coming out of retirement.

I also put Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic... all ahead of Lindros without question, and all played through the same era. What would they be in your eyes? Lemieux with 3 per game? Jagr? Forsberg at 2.5 per game?

I'll ignore the "he had the team" comments on Crosby and what not... as Lindros had "he team" too several times. I'm not even comparing accomplishments for the great players of the game. I'm comparing skill and talent. Lindros had plenty... but he's neither a 2 ppg guy or the ideal hockey player in my mind.

Back on topic... I feel Lindros should get into the Hall eventually. As already pointed out they put Neely in it, and some others that maybe shouldn't be... and if they allowed them, they have to allow Lindros as well.

[ctid]

@jammer2

@Polaris922

Of course Mario and Gretzky were the better players no doubt. As far as I am concerned though, the way I like to see hockey played Eric Lindros is the best I've seen. It's one thing to be in awe of a skilled smallish speedster rippin' it up (seen that too many times before)....but to see the size of a Lindros, physicality and combined skill set absolutely dominating is a rare and unique thing.

As I specifically stated in my post, and was my main point which you both completely ignored:

However, NO ONE in the history of the NHL had the combined skill set at such an elite level as Lindros had. It is such a rare thing to see

THAT is my point and that is why, I think, Lindros is so unique. I have not mentioned anything about two points per game and all that.

But again, of course, Sakic Forsberg, etc etc all had the better career and are better than Lindros in certain aspects of the game.

[Polaris922]

@ctid

I can appreciate that he was your idea of the perfect hockey player. I read your comment,"Eric Lindros is the best Hockey player I have ever seen when on top of his game" to mean you felt Lindros at his peak was the best to ever play the game. A statement I strongly disagree with.

The two points per game comments were carrying on the conversation that were the crux of the off topic tangent we'd been going on. Just as I often think of Lemieux, I'd have liked to see how well he could've done if he'd stayed healthy. I was so hopeful Lemieux would break many of Gretzky's records, which he was more than on pace and capable of... but health and injury got in the way. I don't think Lindros would have done Gretzky's records, but I would've liked to see how far up that ladder he would have climbed. Sadly for both of them, the game had changed and their careers were shortened by various incidents.

[doom88]

Lindros' only weakness was his skull, which you can't target anymore. He could be fancy, but plowing defenders on the way to the net was easier. I think the constant state of recovering from concussions definitely skewed outsider views of his ability. I'm counting the times he was actually healthy.

I think Forsberg nowadays would also be way up there in points per game.

[ctid]

@Polaris922

ok fair enough. I can see now that I may have written my intentions poorly.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

ok fair enough. I can see now that I may have written my intentions poorly.

I do it all the time! I do public speaking fairly often and am told I do quite well, but I don't think that translates into my typing here so much. Lol

[jammer2]

@Polaris922 The way I see it, Lindros was the best combonation of physicality and skill, but he lacked the vision that Mario and Gretzky did, he could not manipulate time and space the way they did. Not taking anything away from Eric, but he was more reactionary, where Mario and Gretzky controlled the game, cause they knew what was going to happen before it did. Eric was a cut below them.

[OccamsRazor]

Do they get in the Hall of Fame???

Is say yeeeah one day...

we'll see man the good ol days...

[Quint]

He averaged 1.5 with people mugging him nightly...It's not even a debate for me. If Lindros played in today's NHL he'd be averaging 2 points a game and creating about 3 power plays a game from guy's pulling him down

Disagree with hypothetical point production. Today's game would still be clutching and grabbing if in his prime. I believe he impacted the game that much. I agree with your assessment, just on different angle.

As for brind'mour...I always called him "the most overrated underrated player" ( if that makes sense)

The guy had hands of stone!!!!

I believed his point production was a result of his insane ice time.

Don't get me wrong, I liked him...I think he should have been a third line center along time ago, and I would have loved him. Instead, the day he got traded I was ecstatic!

Brind'mour def. not in my book.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Between that circus way back when and the Hartnell and Carter garbage, I dont think I ever heard one team have rumors like that before

There have been tons of rumours like that for other teams

Some were not rumors tho. Shanahan for one

[J0e Th0rnton]

@King Knut

The clutch and grab started because Mario and similar names were so unstoppable, Lindros included. I remember pretty well the sessions of Lemieux taking heat for calling it out and challenging the league to put a stop to it, both as a player and later as an owner. I agree Lindros was hampered by it, but it had been happening already.

Clutching and grabbing was happening a ton even in the 80's. The main difference in the mid 90's were team systems were figuring out how to exploit it better. Goaltenders like Brodeur were so good at handling the puck that the trap that forced people to dump and chase could not really be chased.

Jersey won a cup with it. the next year, the league cracked down on obstruction at the start of the year. So many powerplays that year and so many 100 point seasons. but they put away their whistles in the playoffs and then a starless Panthers team went to the finals. The next year, 50-75% of the league decided to employ it one way or another. The red wings Left wing Lock was not quite the trap, but it was a defense first system and a lot of teams with better superstars tried emulating that as well.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I TOTALLY agree. I said in the beginning of his career that the Flyers basically took the Big Dog and nuetered him. I still blame Flyers management for his treatment early in his career but let me elaborate.

When he first came into the league he was a bulldozer/pitbull. Unlike Gretzky and Mario who did receive some preferential treatment by the officials, players knew if they went near Gretzky they would have Semenko, McSorley, McClelland, etc on their ass. I think the Flyers never truly protectected their huge investment.

Look at his rookie season. Had a very good year but also had a couple of fights but nothing major. The Flyers had Dave Brown so you would think Lindros would have been protected. Brownie had 78 PIMs in 70 games. 70 PENALTY Minutes? He sure as hell wasn't scoring and obviously wasn't enforcing.

The next two seasons Lindros continued to fight his own battles and in the 94/95 season Eric played 46 games and NO FLYER HAD OVER 100 PIMS. NOT ONE?

I think the key was in the 95/96 season.when Lindros fought McSorley. Eric held his own but NEVER should have happened. He was at the end of a shift after a goal and McSorley went after him. To his credit, he dropped the gloves with one of the best heavyweights in the league. Lindros was one of the best players in the league and NO WAY he should be fighting a goon. The whole damn team should have been on McSorley.

While the roster was better the Cup year, I think a big part of the success was The Dan Line. Having Daniel Lacroix (163), Scott Daniels (237) and Dan Kordic (210) on the ice probably made Eric much more comfortable to play his game.

Bottom line is he was big and could throw em but NEVER should have been in that position. The Flyers made such a huge investment in him that he should have had the same protection Bobby Clarke did when he played. Granted different era but still the same philosophy

The thing is, they expected him to be more like Mark Messier. If you clutched and grabbed Messier, you could almost certainly count on getting part of a stick or Elbow in your face when he was young and hotheaded.

[Polaris922]

Clutching and grabbing was happening a ton even in the 80's. The main difference in the mid 90's were team systems were figuring out how to exploit it better. Goaltenders like Brodeur were so good at handling the puck that the trap that forced people to dump and chase could not really be chased.

Jersey won a cup with it. the next year, the league cracked down on obstruction at the start of the year. So many powerplays that year and so many 100 point seasons. but they put away their whistles in the playoffs and then a starless Panthers team went to the finals. The next year, 50-75% of the league decided to employ it one way or another. The red wings Left wing Lock was not quite the trap, but it was a defense first system and a lot of teams with better superstars tried emulating that as well.

That was an absolutely amazing goal ... great example of the clutch & grab era. LOL

[J0e Th0rnton]

That was an absolutely amazing goal ... great example of the clutch & grab era. LOL

Good old 80's Hockey

Goal # 7 two leafs haul him down and he scores it while falling. I swear to god, his stick lights on freaking fire as he shoots that one in

AMAZING

Not quite as amazing as when he put the puck in Bourque's skate and let Bourque kick it forward for him. but close

Edited July 19, 2013 by J0e Th0rnton

[Polaris922]

Good old 80's Hockey

Goal # 7 two leafs haul him down and he scores it while falling. I swear to god, his stick lights on freaking fire as he shoots that one in

AMAZING

Not quite as amazing as when he put the puck in Bourque's skate and let Bourque kick it forward for him. but close

Man thanks for the memories... he was unbelievable to watch... absolutely unbelievable. Other than Gretzky... I just don't know who on earth we would ever compare to him. As with so many threads out there, I wonder what the man could have accomplished if he hadn't had so many injuries. Not even so many as much as for so long, I suppose. Thanks for posting the video... I appreciate what Lindros brought to the Flyers organization, but he doesn't even touch the surface of what Lemieux was capable of.

[nossagog]

Lemieux was a freak of nature at that time of the NHL. The Trap and Clutch was just coming of age. But Mario was as fast as anyone in the league, AND HE WAS BIG. So big that many a defenseman misplayed the speed that he had. Small defenseman at the time had no chance to stop him. Him putting the puck through Bourque's legs to score a goal as he blew right by him was the epitome of "Oh ****" moments defenders had with 66. If only he could have stayed healthy.

[JR Ewing]

I remember this one. Short of kicking Mario in the nuts, Fortier tried everything he could do to stop him.

JR

[murraycraven]

Clutching and grabbing was happening a ton even in the 80's. The main difference in the mid 90's were team systems were figuring out how to exploit it better. Goaltenders like Brodeur were so good at handling the puck that the trap that forced people to dump and chase could not really be chased.

Jersey won a cup with it. the next year, the league cracked down on obstruction at the start of the year. So many powerplays that year and so many 100 point seasons. but they put away their whistles in the playoffs and then a starless Panthers team went to the finals. The next year, 50-75% of the league decided to employ it one way or another. The red wings Left wing Lock was not quite the trap, but it was a defense first system and a lot of teams with better superstars tried emulating that as well.

Leave it to a pens fan to spell "What" as "Wat!"... joking...

Mario was an amazing player to watch and he was so strong on his skates that he was nearly impossible to take off the puck. He was so fast and so strong that Teams literally could not stop him.

Edited July 19, 2013 by murraycraven

[JR Ewing]

Leave it to a pens fan to spell "What" as "Wat!"... joking...

Mario was an amazing player to watch and he was so strong on his skates that he was nearly impossible to take off the puck. He was so fast and so strong that Teams literally could not stop him.

I made sure to get tickets to Oilers games whenever the Pens came to town. I was already spoiled by seeing a lot of high end talent close up, but Mario blew me away every time. What I could never get over was how soft his hands were. It was really something: you couldn't hear the puck hit his stick, no matter how hard the pass.

That wasn't picked up on TV or by any mircrophones, and you had to be among the lucky who personally attended games in which he played to really catch something like that. Astonishing hockey player.

JR

[nossagog]

When I moved from the 'burgh to Rochester, NY, I made sure I got tickets every time he was in Buffalo. He was someone that everyone could enjoy.

[rickmac19]

Between that circus way back when and the Hartnell and Carter garbage, I dont think I ever heard one team have rumors like that before

I hate to say it, but I lived in St. Louis in the late '90s. Couldn't remember who got with who's wife (and I do not want to slander anyone), but I had people who knew the players personally refer to it as accepted fact, and the reason one player got traded out of town. I'm thinking it was a couple of Hall-Of-Famers, actually; I can't remember, but no one questioned that it happened.

[JR Ewing]

Ah yeah, the old "he slept with a teammate's wife" scandal. That's only about the oldest, most used, and most mis-used bit of nonsense. I'm not directing that at you, rick, but you don't know how many times I've read this with all of sorts of different players and teams. Over and over again.

JR

[J0e Th0rnton]

I hate to say it, but I lived in St. Louis in the late '90s. Couldn't remember who got with who's wife (and I do not want to slander anyone), but I had people who knew the players personally refer to it as accepted fact, and the reason one player got traded out of town. I'm thinking it was a couple of Hall-Of-Famers, actually; I can't remember, but no one questioned that it happened.

That would be Shanahan with Janney's wife. It is not a rumor, but accepted fact.

Mostly because she divorced Janney and Married Shanahan in short order.

The other 100% true one if not really between players. But Martin Brodeur.....err...let's just say his in law's were already his in law's when he married a second time. Those have to be the most awkward family dinners ever.

[flyer33716]

That was an absolutely amazing goal ... great example of the clutch & grab era. LOL

Show me Mario and Wayne highlights that show this