Report: Brayden Schenn for Jake Gardiner Deal Being Discussed

[radoran]

Couturier has no value to this team? Next I am going start reading how a faceoff specialist is equivalent to a long snapper in football.    

 

A faceoff specialist who is just over 50% for the season (.503) and hasn't been above 50% in his past five games?

 

[murraycraven]

I think his ceiling is 2nd pair, and maybe 2nd unit PP.

 

 

Jack, I hope you are right...  Like I said I am just not as high on him as most.   With Hagg and Morin coming through the ranks my hope is one of the two can become the PP specialist.   Nice to actually have some decent dmen prospects!

[JackStraw]

@murraycraven - I'm hoping Hagg will be that guy. I think Morin may develop enough offense to get a spot on the PP, but it seems like Hagg would be a prototypical PP QB if he works out. But neither of them will be ready for a big role in the next couple years so I think we'll need to see if Gus can hang.

[Bertmega]

@radoran

 

I think you missed the inside the joke. Please refer back to your philly.com 101 manual for further clarification.....

Edited November 21, 2013 by Bertmega

[King Knut]

Commending free agent signings in response to my criticism of homer's trades invoking youth is like comparing apples to spark plugs and make no sense so you've lost me there.

I'll have to try to read the rest later, but your assertion that I'd move either one is abjectly false and I've said so. To me neither one gets moved an this all starts with me saying just that I.e. don't make the Schenn trade.

What I suggested was that if a trade was to be made it would have made much more sense to do it back when they were still losing every game and playing like crap on dull skate blades.

Back then, though I'd have preferred to keep both as a new player would obviously not have helped, yes I would have preferred it be Schenn for all the reasons I gave.

I'm not saying anything they're a better team for ANY version of this trade. I'm saying if i were him and was forced into making a trade three weeks ago, I'd probably though of Schenn as the guy who could fish me more while damaging the overall team less.

I've explained why and you haven't explained what's invalid about my explanation other than that you wish Coots would score more. We all do. There's more to the game than scoring though.

I realize he's playing good defense, but you drastically overstate his value to the team when you say you'd move Schenn over him. Let's say you do this "rumored" trade. Schenn for Gardiner. Are you really going to try and say they are a better team with Couturier and Gardiner vs Schenn and Gardiner? That is your opinion?

I'm not talking about McGinn vs Couturier. I didn't say you should give Couturier's roster spot to McGinn. I'm talking about McGinn vs Raffl, Rosehill, Rinaldo, or the other scrubs they've been playing on the fourth who have brought pretty much nothing to the table. He's barely played, but in both short stints this yer and last McGinn has showed more than anyone who has played on our 4th line this year.

Ok, that's fine, but you keep talking about Couturier, and guess who traded for the pick that turned into him? The return for JVR might suck, it might for Bob too, but I don't even know who those picks turned into. But the return for Richards and Carter was pretty good, no? The Mason trade looks genius. I know they are FA signings and not trades involving youth, but Emery and VLC have both played well for us.

[flyercanuck]

Hey what happened to all the kimmo bashing? Now streit is our whipping boy. Lol. Rightfully so though. I want the flyers to win so bad , but, at the same time it want them to suck so they can just unload both at the deadline for a geo metro or something.

 

 

You can't blame Timonen for getting old...you can only blame the idiot who offered him $6 million. 

[radoran]

@radoran

 

I think you missed the inside the joke. Please refer back to your philly.com 101 manual for further clarification.....

 

Well, I did include a ninja

[radoran]

Ok, that's fine, but you keep talking about Couturier, and guess who traded for the pick that turned into him? The return for JVR might suck, it might for Bob too, but I don't even know who those picks turned into. But the return for Richards and Carter was pretty good, no? The Mason trade looks genius. I know they are FA signings and not trades involving youth, but Emery and VLC have both played well for us.

 

JVR was straight up for Luke Schenn. I'm sorry, but that's just a downright horrible trade and looking worse by the game. ("Had to do it" "change of scenery" "kick in the pants" yadda yadda notwithstanding).

 

For Bob it was 2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder (transferred to LA - Justin Auger).

 

The Auger pick was dealt to LA for Gagne. Stolarz has some good potential. Know little about Leier. They did deal a Vezina Trophy winner (and I firmly believe a lot of Bob Vezina votes were "stick it" to the Flyers).

 

As for the "scrubs" on the 4th line you criticize - Rosehill and Newbury were trades (Zolnierczyk and Syvret - not huge prices, but not exactly good value). And the organization makes the decisions of who's up, who's down and who plays.

 

As we've discussed, I do think the return on Crater/Richards was good. My line when they happened was "better, younger and cheaper." But they also tied the fate of the franchise to an aging, 35+ defenseman who then went down with an injury. Not the organization's "fault" but does demonstrate the risks inherent in making those sorts of deals.

 

Which is exactly the same thing they did with Streit. Again.

 

I outlined the current makeup of the past three Cup winners in another thread - IIRC, the Chicago club that beat the Flyers still has seven guys from that squad with many of their own picks (and just won their second Cup); Boston's got 12 guys w many of their own picks; LA has 17 guys from their Cup winning team.

 

Flyers have four from their Finals team and only one pick (Giroux - Hartnell, Timonen Coburn).

 

Boston's leading their division with the most points in the East, The Hawks have the second most points in the league (with two games in hand on Anaheim) and the Kings' 31 points would be ahead of any team in the East.

 

Point being that in making the decision to blow up the Flyer Final team, they may have gotten "better, younger and cheaper" but they took a significant step back in overall team development. AGAIN for the record, I DO believe that they have a nice solid core to build upon in the next 3-4 years.

 

If they don't decide to blow it up.

 

Again.

[Bertmega]

@radoran

 

It was so ninja that I didn't even see the ninja......Now that is ninja

[AndyS]

FWIW. Darren Dreger reported the Flyers have told the league he could be available as part of a major trade. He reported that LAST NIGHT on NHL Network.

 

This is probably just their way of deciding on whether or not to sign him to a long-term contract extension.

 

Unless someone comes along & just blows their doors off with a huge trade offer, I lock this kid up to stay with the Flyers ASAP.  He's just going to get better.

[OccamsRazor]

This is probably just their way of deciding on whether or not to sign him to a long-term contract extension.

 

Man i hope that isn't going to happen, i'd prefer a modest bridge deal/extension close to what Coots re upped for....or somewhere in that range.

[murraycraven]

Man i hope that isn't going to happen, i'd prefer a modest bridge deal/extension close to what Coots re upped for....or somewhere in that range.

 

Could not agree more... no need to rush into a monster contract based on potential.  

[fanaticV3.0]

Commending free agent signings in response to my criticism of homer's trades invoking youth is like comparing apples to spark plugs and make no sense so you've lost me there.

I'll have to try to read the rest later, but your assertion that I'd move either one is abjectly false and I've said so. To me neither one gets moved an this all starts with me saying just that I.e. don't make the Schenn trade.

What I suggested was that if a trade was to be made it would have made much more sense to do it back when they were still losing every game and playing like crap on dull skate blades.

Back then, though I'd have preferred to keep both as a new player would obviously not have helped, yes I would have preferred it be Schenn for all the reasons I gave.

I'm not saying anything they're a better team for ANY version of this trade. I'm saying if i were him and was forced into making a trade three weeks ago, I'd probably though of Schenn as the guy who could fish me more while damaging the overall team less.

I've explained why and you haven't explained what's invalid about my explanation other than that you wish Coots would score more. We all do. There's more to the game than scoring though.

 

 

Your words

 

"Three weeks ago, I'd have traded Schenn for him, but not Coots."

 

By him, I'm assuming you mean Gardiner, since he was one of the two players being discussed in the rumor for which this thread was started. Trading Schenn for Gardiner would be stupid today and it would have been three weeks ago too.

[King Knut]

Doesn't matter who "him" is... my point is that if you said, GM King Knut, you have to trade Schenn or Coots.  Trading Neither one is an NOT option.  3 weeks ago, it would have been Schenn.  Now my answer would be, "I quit."

 

If you're going to tell me that means I'm trying to run Schenn out of town, you're nuts.

 

Why do you have such a burr in your saddle about this?

 

Coots plays more! 

 

By him, I'm assuming you mean Gardiner, since he was one of the two players being discussed in the rumor for which this thread was started. Trading Schenn for Gardiner would be stupid today and it would have been three weeks ago too.

[fanaticV3.0]

JVR was straight up for Luke Schenn. I'm sorry, but that's just a downright horrible trade and looking worse by the game. ("Had to do it" "change of scenery" "kick in the pants" yadda yadda notwithstanding).

 

For Bob it was 2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder (transferred to LA - Justin Auger).

 

The Auger pick was dealt to LA for Gagne. Stolarz has some good potential. Know little about Leier. They did deal a Vezina Trophy winner (and I firmly believe a lot of Bob Vezina votes were "stick it" to the Flyers).

 

As for the "scrubs" on the 4th line you criticize - Rosehill and Newbury were trades (Zolnierczyk and Syvret - not huge prices, but not exactly good value). And the organization makes the decisions of who's up, who's down and who plays.

 

As we've discussed, I do think the return on Crater/Richards was good. My line when they happened was "better, younger and cheaper." But they also tied the fate of the franchise to an aging, 35+ defenseman who then went down with an injury. Not the organization's "fault" but does demonstrate the risks inherent in making those sorts of deals.

 

Which is exactly the same thing they did with Streit. Again.

 

I outlined the current makeup of the past three Cup winners in another thread - IIRC, the Chicago club that beat the Flyers still has seven guys from that squad with many of their own picks (and just won their second Cup); Boston's got 12 guys w many of their own picks; LA has 17 guys from their Cup winning team.

 

Flyers have four from their Finals team and only one pick (Giroux - Hartnell, Timonen Coburn).

 

Boston's leading their division with the most points in the East, The Hawks have the second most points in the league (with two games in hand on Anaheim) and the Kings' 31 points would be ahead of any team in the East.

 

Point being that in making the decision to blow up the Flyer Final team, they may have gotten "better, younger and cheaper" but they took a significant step back in overall team development. AGAIN for the record, I DO believe that they have a nice solid core to build upon in the next 3-4 years.

 

If they don't decide to blow it up.

 

Again.

 

I'm not sure why you are sorry, but thanks?

 

We've agreed in previous conversations the JVR trade is the worst one at this point in time and the return on Richards and Carter is easily better than the return for JVR. We also seem to be in agreement that our 4th line sucks. I don't know how you feel about the Mason trade, but I think just about everyone likes that one.

 

I think that's probably for the best. That "team" was not a very cohesive unit. Several guys didn't respect the coach, the players were split up into groups, vets and youth against each other, they were literally barely holding it together. That team really had no business in the cup. It was the definition of lightning in a bottle. They were a group with a lot of  potential, but were not on the same page, and had a goalie who played well above his talent level. It was a very toxic environment and personally I'm glad most of that team is gone. Of those who remain from it, I have no issues with them personality wise.

[fanaticV3.0]

Doesn't matter who "him" is... my point is that if you said, GM King Knut, you have to trade Schenn or Coots.  Trading Neither one is an NOT option.  3 weeks ago, it would have been Schenn.  Now my answer would be, "I quit."

 

If you're going to tell me that means I'm trying to run Schenn out of town, you're nuts.

 

Why do you have such a burr in your saddle about this?

 

Coots plays more! 

 

I didn't say you had to do anything. I didn't start the thread. Nor did I make you say you would have traded Schenn 3 weeks ago. Those are your words and opinions.

[King Knut]

You know what, now I want to trade Shenn NOW just to mess with your head.

[radoran]

I'm not sure why you are sorry, but thanks?

 

We've agreed in previous conversations the JVR trade is the worst one at this point in time and the return on Richards and Carter is easily better than the return for JVR. We also seem to be in agreement that our 4th line sucks. I don't know how you feel about the Mason trade, but I think just about everyone likes that one.

 

I think that's probably for the best. That "team" was not a very cohesive unit. Several guys didn't respect the coach, the players were split up into groups, vets and youth against each other, they were literally barely holding it together. That team really had no business in the cup. It was the definition of lightning in a bottle. They were a group with a lot of  potential, but were not on the same page, and had a goalie who played well above his talent level. It was a very toxic environment and personally I'm glad most of that team is gone. Of those who remain from it, I have no issues with them personality wise.

 

The Mason deal is a good trade. Leighton and a 3rd for a potential starting goalie - Quite frankly, I have to believe that there was more than a little unspoken "future considerations" from the Crater/Bobrovsky deals.

 

The point about roster consistency isn't that I "miss" the Finals squad - it's that they've basically completely remade the squad (despite Snider's "can't trade all the players" statement) and that that sort of turnover simply isn't an effective way to build a championship team. This isn't a Florida Marlins type situation where you can buy up free agents and immediately compete - hockey's a different game (as you know).

 

Successful, championship teams have roster consistency that doesn't mean chasing every big name free agent that comes available or trading for whatever big name they've always wanted to see on the back of a Flyers jersey.

[flyercanuck]

The Mason deal is a good trade. Leighton and a 3rd for a potential starting goalie - Quite frankly, I have to believe that there was more than a little unspoken "future considerations" from the Crater/Bobrovsky deals.

 

The point about roster consistency isn't that I "miss" the Finals squad - it's that they've basically completely remade the squad (despite Snider's "can't trade all the players" statement) and that that sort of turnover simply isn't an effective way to build a championship team. This isn't a Florida Marlins type situation where you can buy up free agents and immediately compete - hockey's a different game (as you know).

 

Successful, championship teams have roster consistency that doesn't mean chasing every big name free agent that comes available or trading for whatever big name they've always wanted to see on the back of a Flyers jersey.

 

 And the Flyers have certainly driven that point home with a sledgehammer on a regular basis. Oh well, at least we got LeCavalier a decade after he was the best player in the NHL.... to replace the bought out Briere. And a year and a half of Pronger....for four first round picks and 7 years of cap bs.

[fanaticV3.0]

The Mason deal is a good trade. Leighton and a 3rd for a potential starting goalie - Quite frankly, I have to believe that there was more than a little unspoken "future considerations" from the Crater/Bobrovsky deals.

 

The point about roster consistency isn't that I "miss" the Finals squad - it's that they've basically completely remade the squad (despite Snider's "can't trade all the players" statement) and that that sort of turnover simply isn't an effective way to build a championship team. This isn't a Florida Marlins type situation where you can buy up free agents and immediately compete - hockey's a different game (as you know).

 

Successful, championship teams have roster consistency that doesn't mean chasing every big name free agent that comes available or trading for whatever big name they've always wanted to see on the back of a Flyers jersey.

 

They had Richards and Carter for 6 years. They were the focal point for quite some time. Aside from Lindros, I can't think of many other players they made the focal point of the team for that long. Coburn, Hartnell, Gagne, Briere and Timonen were here for much of that time too. Breaking it up after that long of a run is ok. I hear you about consistency and don't disagree, but 6 years is not a short period of time. That's a long period of time for a group to play together. Some of the surrounding pieces changed, but that was the core for a long time. They had their chance to make it work.

 

Now the core is G, Schenn, Simmonds, Couturier, and Mason. You could make the argument for a few others, but I'm just counting guys who could be here a long time. That's that bad of a bunch and our horrible GM managed to compile that group together too.

Edited November 21, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[flyersfan83]

if schenn can get us an impact player on offense or defense, then do it, but trading schenn for another unproven player is not going to make this team better, that's the problem with homer he thinks trading players just for sake of trading is not going to help this team, this team needs an impact player, plain and simple.

[radoran]

They had Richards and Carter for 6 years. They were the focal point for quite some time. Aside from Lindros, I can't think of many other players they made the focal point of the team for that long. Coburn, Hartnell, Gagne, Briere and Timonen were here for much of that time too. Breaking it up after that long of a run is ok. I hear you about consistency and don't disagree, but 6 years is not a short period of time. That's a long period of time for a group to play together. Some of the surrounding pieces changed, but that was the core for a long time. They had their chance to make it work.

 

Now the core is G, Schenn, Simmonds, Couturier, and Mason. You could make the argument for a few others, but I'm just counting guys who could be here a long time. That's that bad of a bunch and our horrible GM managed to compile that group together too.

 

I hear what you are saying as well - and, as usual, we're not that far away from each other.

 

Richards/Crater were hardly "focal points" for all six years they were here - much like Giroux wasn't a "focal point" in 2011. "Being on the roster" and "being a focal point" are two different things. Giroux had 21 points in 23 playoff games, but he was hardly expected to carry the team and got a lot of open space from what Briere/Hartnell/Richards/Crater/etc. opened up.

 

Of Coburn/Hartnell/Briere/Timonen/Gagne, that particular group was together all of two years (Briere/Hartnell/Timonen arriving in 07-08 and Gagne leaving for 09-10). Again, I think the point is that having that "core" allowed for them to add the pieces - including Crater and Richards - to get to the Final. Having gotten there, they blew it up.

 

And my point was specifically that they have another good core here now - and I HAVE and DO give "credit" to the GM that assembled it. I'll forego the backhanded comlpiment for the moment. They have seven forwards and four defensemen signed at this point for the next two seasons after this at least with BSchenn and Downie potentially adding.

 

Again, assuming they don't blow it up and see similar success.

[Phillygrump]

if schenn can get us an impact player on offense or defense, then do it, but trading schenn for another unproven player is not going to make this team better, that's the problem with homer he thinks trading players just for sake of trading is not going to help this team, this team needs an impact player, plain and simple.

Now we just need to find a GM willing to trade a good impact player for our unproven players.

There should be plenty of them.

[jammer2]

I think his ceiling is 2nd pair, and maybe 2nd unit PP.

 

Well, you don't know until he gets an extended look IMHO. I see stuff there with Gus that others don't I guess. I some flashes of offensive potential. I'd like to find out just what he has in the tank before handing the reigns to an outsider (like Streit....lol).

[wcflyer]

No worries about a Schenn trade, their official website is saying it's other teams talking to Homer about the Schenn brothers because of Luke's recent benching and Brayden being in a contract year. Teams thinking Homer would pull the trigger on a deal. With that being said, who knows?