Hartnell forced out by Hexy?

[AJgoal]

 

Believe you me, I know "it's a business" and "anything can happen" - but then let's just stick with the "it's a business" thing and leave the whole "Flyers family" nonsense out of it. I'm perfectly happy with that (and acknowledge you didn't say anything about it, but it was in my original post).

 

 

I'm pretty sure Hextall has. He's also not the guy who signed Hartnell to that deal, or made him any promises he couldn't or wouldn't keep in regards to signing it.

[JackStraw]

If you don't think that forcing players to waive no trade clauses on their contracts and abandoning long term commitments to players has an effect on what other players think about "playing in Philadelphia" then I think we can just respectfully agree to differ.

 

Well, we don't know what kind of "force" was used here. If Hextall is upfront with Hartnell and says "look, we want to go in a certain direction moving forward and we don't think you're a good fit", is that using force?

 

Personally, I don't think this kind of thing has much affect on what other players think about playing for the Flyers. Everyone was saying the same thing after the Carter and Richards trades, but last off-season the Flyers still (for better or worse) landed two of the most desirable free agents on the market in Streit and VLC. Ghost and Hagg both signed their ELCs (despite the horrible, awful things the organization did to poor Gus), so they weren't afraid to join the "Flyers family". I really think the fans over-state the significance of these kinds of things.

 

Personally I'd rather play in Philly than Columbus, but making almost $5 million a year would really soften the blow.

Edited June 24, 2014 by JackStraw

[DaGreatGazoo]

If you don't think that forcing players to waive no trade clauses on their contracts and abandoning long term commitments to players has an effect on what other players think about "playing in Philadelphia" then I think we can just respectfully agree to differ.

 

It was a hockey move, it was a hockey trade. I understand why it happened.

 

It's just that other players do, too.

 

Valid point....

 

The counter point to this could also be Hextall simply saying, "I wasn't here, I can't control what/how the previous GM did-nor how he handled contracts/players, or no trade clauses."  As Hartnell said, different GM--different vision.  I think it could have a significantly WORSE impact if it was Homer doing it again.

 

Granted Hextall saying that might mean NOTHING to players he is recruiting, however, it's at least a plausible explanation.  

[aziz]

“It had a lot to do with Hextall being named GM, and he wanted to put a fingerprint on how he wants to play,” he [Hartnell]] said, discussing his case. “He has a different vision for the club and their style of play going forward.”

It's not as if Hextall told Hartnell that he hated his guts and wanted him out of Philadelphia on the next stage coach out of town. There is no story here, the Flyers made a hockey trade.

He also went to some length to talk about wanting to play for a team that actually wanted him, not one that had no use for him. Sounds like hextall had a pretty frank discussion with Hartnell.

Of course there's a story there. If there is a story in Kim Kardashian's kid's birthday, there's a story in a GM having a "we don't want you here" talk with a fan favorite who just signed six year extension. It isn't an important story, but it is a story.

[JackStraw]

He also went to some length to talk about wanting to play for a team that actually wanted him, not one that had no use for him. Sounds like hextall had a pretty frank discussion with Hartnell.

 

Well, again, that's pretty much true of any player who gets traded isn't it? I'm sure Hextall had an honest conversation with Hartnell which led to Hartnell waiving his NMC. Which is what a GM should do imo. And you assume that the team that traded for you wants you more than the team that traded you.

 

 

 

Of course there's a story there. If there is a story in Kim Kardashian's kid's birthday, there's a story in a GM having a "we don't want you here" talk with a fan favorite who just signed six year extension. It isn't an important story, but it is a story

 

Ok, it's a story. This time of year, Jay Rosehill's golf handicap is a story so I guess this is too. But I don't think it's a story that paints either the Flyers or Hextall (or Hartnell for that matter) in a negative light. It's just what happens in the world of pro sports. The thread title (to me) suggests nefarious doings by Hextall. I don't see it that way.

Edited June 24, 2014 by JackStraw

[aziz]

@JackStraw

No, I agree, there isn't anything evil to this. It's a little... not good that the Flyers keep moving the players they sign to long term deals relative moments after the signing. But that is only so bad.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

No, I agree, there isn't anything evil to this. It's a little... not good that the Flyers keep moving the players they sign to long term deals relative moments after the signing. But that is only so bad.

 

Yeah, I agree. But I'm hoping it reflects a gradual wizening up of the front office. I do like Hartnell but that was a terrible contract.

[radoran]

Sounds like hextall had a pretty frank discussion with Hartnell.

 

Yeah, and that's where the "forced" aspect comes into play. It's also a pretty stark indictment of Holmgren's tenure in that one of the signature players of his regime doesn't even last until July 1 once he's gone - despite signing a six year, "team-friendly" deal with a NMC on it.

 

And that they're likely to do it again immediately (VLC).

 

Valid point....

 

The counter point to this could also be Hextall simply saying, "I wasn't here, I can't control what/how the previous GM did-nor how he handled contracts/players, or no trade clauses."  As Hartnell said, different GM--different vision.  I think it could have a significantly WORSE impact if it was Homer doing it again.

 

Granted Hextall saying that might mean NOTHING to players he is recruiting, however, it's at least a plausible explanation.  

 

Sure, and I believe I've said that at this point Hextall gets a pass from a lot of people - myself included and hopefully other players. But there just might be a little "wait and see" attitude. As has been pointed out, I joined many in being happy how Holmgren retooled the team with Briere, Hartnell and Timonen in his first dramatic moves.

 

This is Hextall's opportunity to remake the team and, thankfully, he's trying to do that. 

 

And it could certainly have been a reason to pull the trigger on the change this year.

 

I'm happy to be off that Homercoaster and am looking forward to the Hextall regime.

 

Now, let's trade MacDonald to the Oilers and draft Ekblad

[Howie58]

 Howdy:

 

It is what it is. We do get some flexibility down the road. It ain't a biggie. I suspect from what the Inquirer wrote that Hexy may have made Hartnell a tad uncomfortable, hence the willingness to waive. I guess the question for us is whether a change in venue makes Umberger a better player. I always liked his work ethic. If the deterioration in his numbers is permanent, this is just a reduction in cap down the road and little more. 

 

Best,

 

Howie

[murraycraven]

Hartsy got caught with Hexy's    DOG   little bitoch was in heat ...

   something was up on the Why ???

 

Toughfighter or quigly?

[DaGreatGazoo]

Homercoaster

 

This.  Is.  Priceless.  

[Bakanekimiwa]

Yeah. I would imagine. But it's still kind of a given, isn't it? A guy with a NMC has to be given some motivation, doesn't he? "you're welcome to stay. Enjoy Rinaldo as your linemate for your 8 minutes a game."

None of this is to say I didn't enjoy reading the article. I did. I'm glad it was posted here. I just thought the title was a little "no crap."

 

well well, this just brings up the age old topic of: how much should one really make of the NMC candy that homer was handing out. many posters have pointed to those NMC as the ultimate handcuffs for this team. well, this is apparently not the case. sure, hexy's options may have been limited, but they couldn't have been THAT limited for Hartnell to be shipped off to CBJ. 

[ruxpin]

FORCED TO LEAVE:

 

[radoran]

well well, this just brings up the age old topic of: how much should one really make of the NMC candy that homer was handing out. many posters have pointed to those NMC as the ultimate handcuffs for this team. well, this is apparently not the case. sure, hexy's options may have been limited, but they couldn't have been THAT limited for Hartnell to be shipped off to CBJ. 

 

It's not so much "ultimate handcuffs" as making taking on RJ Umberger for four more years at $150K less than Hartnell into a "win."

 

At best, all they've done is gain a small amount of cap space for four years and some more in Y5 & 6.

 

That's the "value" they got for their first line LW - a small amount of immediate cap space, cap space four years from now, RJ Umberger and a 4th. 

 

Not "ultimately handcuffed" but not exactly dealing from a position of strength. And I actually like the deal.

 

I frequently talk about the NMC "candy" not as an "ultimate handcuff" but as a matter of limiting the options. 

 

It is also a tactic that loses its effectiveness as you force out player after player that you grant them to. 

 

Regardless of whether they were "in effect" or not, the league saw them ship Crater and Richards out. And then Bryzgalov. And Briere*. And now Hartnell one year in to a six year, team friendly deal. And, apparently hopefully, VLC - again one year in. 

 

And we've heard talk about forcing Coburn to take a trade, too. 

 

There is a point at which a player looking across the table as they are told all about how committed they are to you as part of a winning strategy going forward and so you should sign this six year deal we are giving you an NMC on has serious concerns about the veracity of your statement.

 

And what happens if Hartnell, being told he's being tossed aside, decides that Columbus isn't the best fit for him? If nothing else, he's got some pretty big incentive against a division rival he's going to see at least four times every year (five next season).

 

As I've said, this is a new start under a new GM, and it is possible that the Flyers can simply throw enough money at the problem to overcome it anyway.

 

But it could be a factor in picking between two relatively equal offers. And it is certainly a reflection of the abject mess Hextall's predecessor made of the organization.

 

 

 

* I do believe they were buying Briere out of the last two years regardless of the compliance tag.

[brelic]

There is a point at which a player looking across the table as they are told all about how committed they are to you as part of a winning strategy going forward and so you should sign this six year deal we are giving you an NMC on has serious concerns about the veracity of your statement.

 

Concerns over veracity or not, the Flyers guaranteed he would make $27M over the next 6 years even though they probably knew he wasn't truly worth it in hockey terms.

 

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over Hartnell's 'anger.'

[radoran]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over Hartnell's 'anger.'

 

Haven't lost a wink.

 

It ain't Hartnell's opinion I care about.

[brelic]

Haven't lost a wink.

 

It ain't Hartnell's opinion I care about.

 

I knew you wouldn't  

 

It's the same with Richards and Carter. They can be pissed about being traded when they thought the organization made a commitment to them - which they did. But in reality, the organization did them a solid and guaranteed them over $120M combined for playing hockey well into their 30s.

 

I'm sure the sting was gone come training camp.

[radoran]

I knew you wouldn't

 

It's the same with Richards and Carter. They can be pissed about being traded when they thought the organization made a commitment to them - which they did. But in reality, the organization did them a solid and guaranteed them over $120M combined for playing hockey well into their 30s.

 

I'm sure the sting was gone come training camp.

 

Right, but, again, it's not those players' opinions that concern me, but future players questioning the veracity of the organization while firmly acknowledging the "new day dawning" under Ron Hextall. 

 

For the record, Crater clearly didn't think the sting was gone by training camp in Columbus. By the end of the season? Sure. Even more now.

[brelic]

Right, but, again, it's not those players' opinions that concern me, but future players questioning the veracity of the organization while firmly acknowledging the "new day dawning" under Ron Hextall. 

 

For the record, Crater clearly didn't think the sting was gone by training camp in Columbus. By the end of the season? Sure. Even more now.

 

I see what you're saying. They don't have a very good track record in keeping their commitments, do they?

 

To be fair, they kept their commitments to Timo and Hartnell through their first long contracts. Mostly the same with Briere.

 

But if you look at other players traded before or within the first year of their long contracts - Carter, Richards, JVR, Bryzgalov, Hartnell, possibly VLC - it's a little puzzling. And that's just within the last four years!

 

I think what it really says is that the Flyers do what it takes to get a player now and deal with the consequences later. That means overcommitting. So far it hasn't really affected their ability to sign free agents - that we know. 

[King Knut]

I have to take Hartnell's quote with a grain of salt because whisper down the lane turns things crazy.

That said, if Hexy is thinking that way then it sounds like he might just have the freedom to do some things that I think a lot of us assumed Homer never ever had.

Yahoo seems to be down.

Understandably, Hartnell was upset. The bait and switch is becoming the Flyers' MO, apparently.

But, really, this quote I think sums it up best:

Basically, Hextall inherited a certain team and the contracts that come with it. Hartnell, in a sense, is a victim of his contract. I'm sure there's no way he's traded if he has 3 years or less.

[King Knut]

This as my issue back with the Richards and Carter trades too. How much did those trades cost us in signing other free agents?

Like Hartnell for example? Or VLC?

Right, but, again, it's not those players' opinions that concern me, but future players questioning the veracity of the organization while firmly acknowledging the "new day dawning" under Ron Hextall.

For the record, Crater clearly didn't think the sting was gone by training camp in Columbus. By the end of the season? Sure. Even more now.

[ruxpin]

So far it hasn't really affected their ability to sign free agents - that we know.

 

Yeah.  Since we don't know I guess it's wildly disingenuous to speculate, but I have to wonder about Parise and Suter.   Maybe others.  By all counts (?) Parise and Suter were simply going to go together to Minnesota.   But who knows?

[Cheesesteak]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over Hartnell's 'anger.'

 

me neither...how angry can he be when he's been hooking up with this babe? 

[OccamsRazor]

  But who knows?

 

Well no matter what the last 29 games of the regular season he score one 5 on 5 goal and that carried over into the playoffs where in 7 games he didn't score any just 3 measly assists.

 

Take what you will from that but he left management no choice with how he played combined with his paycheck, someone had to go and i feel he won't be the last we see gone before the puck drops again.

 

Hexy i think demonstrated he isn't afraid to get rid of anyone he feels doesn't fit his mold no better way to start the ball rolling than with a fan favorite. He intends to put his stamp on this team and will see soon if he means it by the draft and free agency.

[ruxpin]

Well no matter what the last 29 games of the regular season he score one 5 on 5 goal and that carried over into the playoffs where in 7 games he didn't score any just 3 measly assists.

Take what you will from that but he left management no choice with how he played combined with his paycheck, someone had to go and i feel he won't be the last we see gone before the puck drops again.

Hexy i think demonstrated he isn't afraid to get rid of anyone he feels doesn't fit his mold no better way to start the ball rolling than with a fan favorite. He intends to put his stamp on this team and will see soon if he means it by the draft and free agency.

I don't disagree with a word of that. I'm really not concerned with the "but free agents won't come here" thing.

Until I hear some free agent's quote citing exactly that I won't spend a second worrying about it.