You know what they really need?

[Bakanekimiwa]

Nobody in their right mind including the Flyers' brass thought VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department. It's anyone's guess what they saw in VLC but what they needed and why they hired Pronger was obvious to everyone.

 

Those moves are pretty far apart on the earth-shattering deals scale don't you think? The Pronger trade was a "mortgage the future" gamble and VLC they scraped off the FA market. Lumping them together as if they represent "more of the same" from the Flyers doesn't really work.

 

It sure was... Sbisa is becoming a pretty good D man for the Ducks. They seemed to have squandered the picks though. 

[radoran]

It sure was... Sbisa is becoming a pretty good D man for the Ducks Canucks. They seemed to have squandered the picks though. 

 

Sbisa was sent to Vancouver in the Kesler trade.

 

I think the jury is still out on a picks a bit but it appears both have at least played more than a handful of games in the NHL.

 

As for "no one in their right mind" thinking VLC could bring leadership:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-07-08/sports/40422941_1_general-manager-paul-holmgren-claude-giroux-flyers-officials

 

"Lecavalier says he can bring leadership to Flyers"

"I've been through some tough years and I've been through some really great years," Lecavalier, 33, said in a conference call with reporters Saturday. "So I'll bring that in the room, and definitely at my age, [as] older players, we have to bring that leadership. It's not just having one leader - you need a lot of good leaders to make sure that the team goes in the right direction, and I'm going to try to do that."

 

Yeah, who the hell would have thought that?

[Bakanekimiwa]

Sbisa was sent to Vancouver in the Kesler trade.

 

I think the jury is still out on a picks a bit but it appears both have at least played more than a handful of games in the NHL.

 

As for "no one in their right mind" thinking VLC could bring leadership:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-07-08/sports/40422941_1_general-manager-paul-holmgren-claude-giroux-flyers-officials

 

"Lecavalier says he can bring leadership to Flyers"

 

 

Yeah, who the hell would have thought that?

 

Right right.. totally meant Vancouver. Point being the same, we lost a piece we could sure use now. Having said that, I think the Pronger trade was a good trade .... especially IF we had won in 2010. that would have made it all worth it. 

[radoran]

I think the Pronger trade was a good trade .... especially IF we had won in 2010. that would have made it all worth it.

 

I had a long, protracted conversation with former frequent poster davies about this very issue when it happened. The bartender almost had to separate us

 

If they won the Cup, the Pronger deal was a win. If they didn't, it was at best a wash.

 

The whole point of that deal was to put the team over the top and win the Cup. Period. End of sentence.

 

Homer said essentially that when he got kicked upstairs.

[J0e Th0rnton]

By no means a bad player, he is the epitome of a guy who puts up numbers and doesn't lead his team to the promised land. He's exactly the kind of guy I don't want. The logic behind getting VLC at least makes sense. The pay, length of contract, and lack of consideration for his health is another story, but he at least played an integral part in a team winning a championship Oates is just a name. He throws up numbers and that's about it.

 

I dunno man. Lecavalier was not the impact player in the Tampa cup run. He was streaky and still "meh" defensively.

 

Vs the Isles 1st round Tampa won 4-1. Lecavalier 0 points and -1

Vs the Habs 2nd round, Tampa swept. ill give you this, Lecavalier was playing well tis round. Not exactly a fearsome team the Habs, but Lecavalier scored 5 goals, 2 assists in 4 games.

Vs The Flyers 3rd round, 4 goals, 2 assists in 7 games and -4. So yes, he made an impact on the scoresheet, but also, in goals against.

Vs Calgary in the finals, Went 7 games. He scored 3 assists and was -1

 

I still think of him as a higher end depth player in that cup run, as opposed to a clutch player like StLouis and Richards. Transplant him with A young Oates and I think Oates does better.

[flyer4ever]

What they need is to stop dreaming that they are close to winning, stop scavenging for viable players to fill the roster and make the cap and bottom out and rebuild through wise drafting and proper player development. This team is too small and too slow and everybody who can spell hockey knows it. I will always be a Flyer fan, but finishing 8th and losing in the first round is not a good plan.

 

[flyercanuck]

@flyer4ever

 

Been preaching this since 2007. Sucking for another season could have brought us Stamkos or Doughty or Pietrangelo. Instead we were buying out Briere a few years later. And Bryz. And wishing Pronger and Umberger and VLCs contract would hurry up and end. 

[radoran]

@flyer4ever

 

Been preaching this since 2007. Sucking for another season could have brought us Stamkos or Doughty or Pietrangelo. Instead we were buying out Briere a few years later. And Bryz. And wishing Pronger and Umberger and VLCs contract would hurry up and end. 

 

OK, but in 2010 they were actually pretty close to winning.

 

Despite the 05-06 debacle, the Flyers are really never going to be competing for a high lottery pick and they really shouldn't be.

 

Briere was actually on the roster for five years - hardly a short timer and his buyout, aside from costing them little in real terms and nothing on the cap, was, IMO, always the intent (before the "recapture" rule change).

 

What they need is to stop making boneheaded decisions. Like a knee-jerk "get a goalie" or "blow the whole roster up a year after getting to the Finals." Yes, both of those were related.

 

Then you can add "we'll improve our team by adding the Islanders' top defensemen" or "any forward can play any position at any time with no affect on his game" or "let's sign a guy on a clear downward path for five years with a NMC".

 

Hopefully Hextall is the start of a new way.

 

Umburglar notwithstanding.

[aziz]

but finishing 8th and losing in the first round is not a good plan.

You figure that is the actual plan, then?

[flyercanuck]

OK, but in 2010 they were actually pretty close to winning.

 

Sure...and even closer to missing the playoffs.

 

Despite the 05-06 debacle, the Flyers are really never going to be competing for a high lottery pick and they really shouldn't be.

 

I agree. I'd just rather they stop making deals to keep us mediocre. If we're going to have an off year, let it happen.

 

Briere was actually on the roster for five years - hardly a short timer and his buyout, aside from costing them little in real terms and nothing on the cap, was, IMO, always the intent (before the "recapture" rule change).

 

As you well know, i was never a fan. He had some nice playoffs and some mediocre regular seasons. Of course playoffs matter, but his lack of desire without the puck was infuriating.

 

What they need is to stop making boneheaded decisions. Like a knee-jerk "get a goalie" or "blow the whole roster up a year after getting to the Finals." Yes, both of those were related.

 

Without a doubt.

 

 

Then you can add "we'll improve our team by adding the Islanders' top defensemen" or "any forward can play any position at any time with no affect on his game" or "let's sign a guy on a clear downward path for five years with a NMC".

 

Indubitably

 

Hopefully Hextall is the start of a new way.

 

Umburglar notwithstanding.

 

Lets hope. At least Umberger was sort of the lesser of two evils (contract wise)

[radoran]

Lets hope. At least Umberger was sort of the lesser of two evils (contract wise)

 

Still think it would have been easier to dump Hartnell in a few years rather than deal for a guy who was on the verge of a buyout...

[canoli]

As for "no one in their right mind" thinking VLC could bring leadership:

http://articles.phil...lyers-officials

"Lecavalier says he can bring leadership to Flyers"

Quote

"I've been through some tough years and I've been through some really great years," Lecavalier, 33, said in a conference call with reporters Saturday. "So I'll bring that in the room, and definitely at my age, [as] older players, we have to bring that leadership. It's not just having one leader - you need a lot of good leaders to make sure that the team goes in the right direction, and I'm going to try to do that."

Yeah, who the hell would have thought that?

 

 

oh brother.

when you pull a quote do it honestly next time. "nobody in their right mind thought VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department."

[aziz]

Still think it would have been easier to dump Hartnell in a few years rather than deal for a guy who was on the verge of a buyout...

 

two things, there.  one is umberger, it made a lot of sense to me that the flyers got experienced utility in exchange for hartnell.  he hasn't provided that utility so far this year, and maybe he won't.  but conceptually, it made sense.  

 

the other thing is hartnell.  you made a really strong post earlier (today, i think) about lecavelier being a line killer, and you were right.  so was hartnell.  hartnell had to be on the first line, or he was useless.  he saw time on all lines last season, and the only place where he wasn't a falling down, no backchecking, penalty machine was on the first line.  completely inflexible, not only positionally, but with linemates, as well.  you got the most out of hartnell if you put him next to the best forwards you had, and his contribution fell dramatically down to nothing at all as you tried to move him down the depth chart.  the first line LW was a taken and filled spot until hartnell was no longer on the team.  lecavelier at least can play with whoever you want, so long as he's in the middle.  not so, hartnell.

 

as it stands, the flyers are looking to fill the top LW slot with someone who can be a contributing part of the team going forward, and they have the roster flexibility to do that.  it may be another year or two before they find someone who can really own it, but that's still sooner than it would be if scotty were sitting in that spot until his contract expired.

[radoran]

oh brother.

when you pull a quote do it honestly next time. "nobody in their right mind thought VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department."

And nobody said that in the first place.

Learned a lesson?

[radoran]

two things, there. one is umberger, it made a lot of sense to me that the flyers got experienced utility in exchange for hartnell. he hasn't provided that utility so far this year, and maybe he won't. but conceptually, it made sense.

the other thing is hartnell. you made a really strong post earlier (today, i think) about lecavelier being a line killer, and you were right. so was hartnell. hartnell had to be on the first line, or he was useless. he saw time on all lines last season, and the only place where he wasn't a falling down, no backchecking, penalty machine was on the first line. completely inflexible, not only positionally, but with linemates, as well. you got the most out of hartnell if you put him next to the best forwards you had, and his contribution fell dramatically down to nothing at all as you tried to move him down the depth chart. the first line LW was a taken and filled spot until hartnell was no longer on the team. lecavelier at least can play with whoever you want, so long as he's in the middle. not so, hartnell.

as it stands, the flyers are looking to fill the top LW slot with someone who can be a contributing part of the team going forward, and they have the roster flexibility to do that. it may be another year or two before they find someone who can really own it, but that's still sooner than it would be if scotty were sitting in that spot until his contract expired.

Rux had the line killer comment :-)

And my very quote you pulled involved Hartnell not being here "until his contract expired"

It was a question of when they dealt him. He would have more value in two years than Umburglar does now.

[ruxpin]

Rux had the line killer comment :-)

@aziz

Sometimes it's even difficult for me... er...us to remember on which login we I said what.

[canoli]

And nobody said that in the first place.

Learned a lesson?

 

 

i was wondering how you'd try to squirm away from this one - nice try but = Fail.

[fanaticV3.0]

I dunno man. Lecavalier was not the impact player in the Tampa cup run. He was streaky and still "meh" defensively.

 

Vs the Isles 1st round Tampa won 4-1. Lecavalier 0 points and -1

Vs the Habs 2nd round, Tampa swept. ill give you this, Lecavalier was playing well tis round. Not exactly a fearsome team the Habs, but Lecavalier scored 5 goals, 2 assists in 4 games.

Vs The Flyers 3rd round, 4 goals, 2 assists in 7 games and -4. So yes, he made an impact on the scoresheet, but also, in goals against.

Vs Calgary in the finals, Went 7 games. He scored 3 assists and was -1

 

I still think of him as a higher end depth player in that cup run, as opposed to a clutch player like StLouis and Richards. Transplant him with A young Oates and I think Oates does better.

 

I had to edit my response because I did not want my annoyance-to-anger with that stat to be misinterpeted as being towards you personally. I will instead link to these two articles:

 

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2008/11/19/why-plusminus-is-a-rotten-useless-misleading-and-irrelevant-stat-for-nhl-players/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/52784-Obsolete-plusminus-potential-vs-production-and-Winnipeg-bungled-Burmistrov.html

[J0e Th0rnton]

I had to edit my response because I did not want my annoyance-to-anger with that stat to be misinterpeted as being towards you personally. I will instead link to these two articles:

 

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2008/11/19/why-plusminus-is-a-rotten-useless-misleading-and-irrelevant-stat-for-nhl-players/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/52784-Obsolete-plusminus-potential-vs-production-and-Winnipeg-bungled-Burmistrov.html

Oh I get the+/- dislike and I am a big fan of corsi/fenwick. That does not change my opinion on what I saw of Lecavalier in that cup run. Depth scoring player who was meh defensively. Oates was better

[radoran]

i was wondering how you'd try to squirm away from this one - nice try but = Fail.

 

Yawn. There's nobody squirming.

 

Here's the entire context of the situation:

 

If they could find a Jagr type , an older player who has won, who will have instant respect in the new room because the player did R and X on a championship team is who i think they need.

 

This, exactly. The hole is obvious.

It is, in fact, what they hoped they got in Pronger and why they blew the team up. And then what they hoped they would get in VLC - who, honestly, hasn't been "that guy" in years.

 

Nobody said "VLC was another Pronger in the leadership department" except you.

 

The "it" in context was exactly this: "a Jagr type, an older player who has won, who will have instant respect in the new room because the player did R and X on a championship team is who i think they need."

 

Pronger was that. And they clearly hoped that VLC would provide that sort of addition as well.

 

Homer said it. VLC said it. Every article that was written about the signing said it.

 

Don't know why you are insisting on patting yourself on the back for your misquotation.

 

But, hey, do carry on.

[canoli]

Don't know why you are insisting on patting yourself on the back for your misquotation.

 

wow. that's rich. You leave out the key element of my post and then ridicule the part you quoted and I'm the one misquoting and patting myself on the back.

 

I understood your point; I just thought you took it too far when you implied the Flyers expected similar leadership qualities out of Pronger and VLC. That's all I took exception to but you couldn't or wouldn't see that. No big deal, I guess we've beaten it into the ground by now.

[OccamsRazor]

So Cocacola will have to go through waivers before being sent down.

 

Sorry but he'd be my new 7th he has a higher skill set and won't make it through waivers.

 

I'm trading someone or waiving Schultz his salary is higher but his skill set is lower and more than likely won't get claimed because of his salary.

[doom88]

I've actually been pleasantly surprised by Schultz to be honest. He stays within his abilities, and doesn't really make big mistakes. I'd say that's valuable for a lower pair D.

[OccamsRazor]

I've actually been pleasantly surprised by Schultz to be honest. He stays within his abilities, and doesn't really make big mistakes. I'd say that's valuable for a lower pair D.

Yes he has placed pretty well still a little panicky in his own zone I'm just saying someone will have to go and CC just handles the puck better skates a step or two fasfer and is more pbysical and will even drop the gloves. So I'd prefer to move Luke or Nick the ower guys but I can't them doing that now. So that leaves me chosing Schultz it snothing personal but someone will have to go and with teams needing Dmenn CC won't make it through waivers....Schultz will I think because of bis higher salary so sneak him through waivers. Just my opinion.

[brelic]

Yes he has placed pretty well still a little panicky in his own zone I'm just saying someone will have to go and CC just handles the puck better skates a step or two fasfer and is more pbysical and will even drop the gloves. So I'd prefer to move Luke or Nick the ower guys but I can't them doing that now. So that leaves me chosing Schultz it snothing personal but someone will have to go and with teams needing Dmenn CC won't make it through waivers....Schultz will I think because of bis higher salary so sneak him through waivers. Just my opinion.

 

The related question for me is if you remove Schultz, does that affect Del Zotto's game? 

 

He's been our best defenseman since moving away from Schenn and being paired with Schultz. I don't know how much of it is related to the pairing and how much to the other moving parts on defense that went down, the opponents, how our forwards played, etc.

 

But if DZ is playing so well right now with Schultz as his steady partner, would you risk messing that up as a coach?

 

I'd keep Schenn on the bench, personally. He's easily the worst of our 7 defensemen. I can't say that he's worse than CC yet because I"ve only seen two games, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

 

It's not realistic to bench MacDonald or Coburn, but completely realistic to make Schenn a healthy scratch for a handful of games.