The Vinny anti-Chaos Theory

[flyercanuck]

@King Knut

 

It helped the team just fine....we ended up with Provorov AND Konecny!

[DaGreatGazoo]

Totally agree with you about the playing while injured/LTIR issue. It boggles the mind they were asked to play-albeit horribly while injured. Playing hurt is one thing. Playing injured and pulling the team down is ludicrous.

I don't dislike RJ or VLC. I hold out hope that maybe VLC can out together a decent year--whatever that means at this point in his career.

I don't think RJ has much left unfortunately. He didn't show much in Columbus and he showed little/nothing last year.

I thought Read was trending upwards heading into last season and it totally fell apart for him. I think he bounces back. His game has always been based on speed and that will hopefully fit in well with Hakstol's systems.

[King Knut]

From your keyboard to god's ears.

I still can't fathom why the hell both He and Umby were out there last year if they were both so dn injured.

It wasn't helping the team. LTIRing Umberger at least would have helped ease the cap situation enough to bring in someone who could play even if he wasn't great.

There's so much that's so confounding surrounding RJ and last season and having him on the line with Read who was also hurt and then complaining that Coots wasn't scoring enough...

I can't wait till they're All gone. I hope you're right about Read. I liked him as a player and though he'd be good on that line, but he was just out of it most of the time last year.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Fallback is: "Would you like butter on your popcorn?"

 

"I'll butter your popcorn."

 

- Dice

 

[radoran]

He's not a PP QB.

He's a shot blocker and he's actually a fairly strong position based D man and a fairly strong transition guy who used to be pretty good at starting the rush out of his own zone and making a good "first pass".

I used to compare him to Kris Russell in Calgary, who is now leaps and bounds ahead for half the price.

[jammer2]

I just think it's not wise to interpret it as "lack of heart" when it could probably more likely be having had absolutely no idea how to do his job or even what his job was.

 

 There are some variables involved....injuries, out of position....but for me, the eye test says there FAR less than 100% effort being put forth by VLC...it was that way for 2-3 years in Tampa and it's been that way since he arrived. I think there is a conscious decision to not conform, and to make matters worse, even if he could, his body may not let him....it sucks.

[OccamsRazor]

 There are some variables involved....injuries, out of position....but for me, the eye test says there FAR less than 100% effort being put forth by VLC...it was that way for 2-3 years in Tampa and it's been that way since he arrived. I think there is a conscious decision to not conform, and to make matters worse, even if he could, his body may not let him....it sucks.

 

 

All this will get sorted out in camp....the cream will rise to the top...

 

 

...the rest shall fetch popcorn...

 

 

 

...Hak won't play favorites and he doesn't care what happened before he got here.

 

I think what we see here once MDZ is added to the fold is what they will go with...barring a last minute trade of a Dman.

[radoran]

There are some variables involved....injuries, out of position....but for me, the eye test says there FAR less than 100% effort being put forth by VLC...it was that way for 2-3 years in Tampa and it's been that way since he arrived. I think there is a conscious decision to not conform, and to make matters worse, even if he could, his body may not let him....it sucks.

Nobody but jammer says he's dogging it

I am increasingly of the hopebelief there was a serious personality conflict with Berube.

[murraycraven]

I am increasingly of the hopebelief there was a serious personality conflict with Berube.

 

at the end of the day I think that is really the only hope rad.   although, I think jammer is spot on...

 

it is obvious that VLC does not want to be a Flyer and more obvious the organization wants nothing to do with him.  If he proves to be worthwhile under Hak (which he wont b/c he does not have the skill/speed to play his defensive system) then great ...  I would love to see VLC reignite his overall play but his play has been a steady decline for years now.  Hak is not a magician and cant stop father time.

[jammer2]

  I was *so* looking forward to Kessel vs Babcock....unfortunately, I may witness something very close on my own team. It will be a huge distraction.....so much so, that I can see Hexy and the org getting antsy enough that they will give up assets to rid themselves of his cap hit, injury situation and attitude. I can see him getting shipped out and the Flyers giving up something like Cousins or a 3rd round pick, just to wash their hands of this problem once and for all. Teams like Phoenix and Edmonton are very starved for talent at center, unlikely....but they may bite. 

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

Boy, this dude brings out some interesting debate. And only time will tell if he can perform...

 

Putting aside cap and roster issues, his presence blocks progression of someone younger.  For a team that needs rebuilding, that's scary.  And while D and G seem to be improved going into '15-16, our forward corps beyond the first line is not so hot.  Vinny's presence clogs change. 

 

Howie

[Bertmega]

MacDonald I almost understood when it happened..... almost..... like 0.05% was like: "Hey not bad we got a defenseman that looks like a solid 2-3 guy" Then there was the contract and then that percentage dropped exponentially.

 

With VLC I just don't get it. I have no idea why on Earth they brought him in. He was done when he was leaving Tampa and the Flyers brass give him a contract that a 25 year old young gun would get. 

 

I say sit his ass in the pressbox until either:

A) Pride makes him retire

B) The contract finishes up

 

I can see Luke, MacDonald and possibly Umberger being gone by the deadline. 

[jammer2]

MacDonald I almost understood when it happened..... almost..... like 0.05% was like: "Hey not bad we got a defenseman that looks like a solid 2-3 guy" Then there was the contract and then that percentage dropped exponentially.

 

With VLC I just don't get it. I have no idea why on Earth they brought him in. He was done when he was leaving Tampa and the Flyers brass give him a contract that a 25 year old young gun would get. 

 

I say sit his ass in the pressbox until either:

A) Pride makes him retire

B) The contract finishes up

 

I can see Luke, MacDonald and possibly Umberger being gone by the deadline. 

 

C) The fans and the media make the non stop pressure to much to take, not worth the hassle.....WE CAN DO THIS!!   ha ha

[Mad Dog]

Totally agree with you about the playing while injured/LTIR issue. It boggles the mind they were asked to play-albeit horribly while injured. Playing hurt is one thing. Playing injured and pulling the team down is ludicrous.

I don't dislike RJ or VLC. I hold out hope that maybe VLC can out together a decent year--whatever that means at this point in his career.

 

 

I still hold out some hope.  For both of them, actually.  From every single thing that came out after the season was over, RJ had to spend about 40 minutes AFTER EACH GAME just laying down on the table, or bench, or whatever, for the simple reason that he could NOT move. He could not even take a shower right after the game was over without just laying down motionless.  He was playing on one hip and with a seriously injured abdomen for most of the season. Berube and the training staff should be prosecuted for such downright borderline criminal negligence when handling their players.   

 

Supposedly, his season-ending surgeries did fix both the abdomen and the hip.  So based on this alone, I can't imagine he has any way to go but up. 

 

VLC is well.... VLC.  As many of us covered in excruciating detail over and over again, it is just the reality that he has declined.  And there is very little he personally can do about it.  But Berube's negligence and cluelessness were partially responsible for Vinny's bad performance.  So with that component taken care of, it's reasonable to have hope.  The Flyers seem to be stuck with him anyway; they might as well find a way to help him perform better.

[idahophilly]

I have not had a chance to read all the reply's so far but this really shows how far the Flyers have to go and how 1-2 players/contracts mess things up. Once you (anyone) lets the fog of fantasy land fade and realize this guy is likely on the team this year it becomes a question of do you go all in on him for the start of the season or COMPLETELY write him off, eat the cap hit and more or less pretend as best you can he isn't there and carry on. All the debate might be semantics anyway. Nothing is going to happen from a contending standpoint anyway this year. You can argue he is taking up a spot. Yeah, sure. That's true. It has been argued, and IMHO correctly, that we really don't know what we have in any of the players at this point. Even V and G. I'm not going to go into a tirade about Berube but history usually has a way of clearing things up and 5 years from now we are going to know him as one of the worst coaches the Flyers ever had. 

 

All this post shows is no one has a good grip on how to handle him and RJ and McDonald. I truly can't wait to see which way Hakstoll goes with this. Whatever his decision is I'll go full in on it myself (barring something ludicrous). I don't think Haks can mangle it anymore than Berube did, and that goes for virtually every player on the team. It should be of little surprise that a 4th line player like him probably handled PEB (Bellemare) just about the best of anyone.

 

The only defense Berube has was the even bigger mess of a lineup Holmgren gave him, but I digress. 

 

I say start him as 2nd line center. If he can be reasonably ok fine. If he can't then no one will think the less of the Flyers organization if they have to bench him for long periods of time. And don't discount that appearance of how the organization treats what is going to be a HOF and class guy in regards to who and for what amount UFA's want to come to Philly and resigning players we want to keep. 

[Bertmega]

@jammer2

"C) The fans and the media make the non stop pressure to much to take, not worth the hassle.....WE CAN DO THIS!!   ha ha"

Philadelphia fans are the best at being the worst. Let's make this dude cry himself to sleep. HAHAHAHAHA

 

I like you option the best

[Bertmega]

@idahophilly

 

Wait one second there. You admit to his skill declining yet want to offer second line minutes? So if I understand this correctly the Flyers 1st rounder from 2011 has to waste yet another year of development on the 3rd line? Basically being relegated to a checking specialist? I'm not trying to be a dick here, but Hextall, Hakstol and the Fans deserve better. We all can't continue to eat the **** sandwiches that Paul Holmgren made for us. 

 

If Vinny Lecavalier was worthy of 2nd line minutes, this thread would not exist. If and I mean if VLC is truly worthy. he'll show up to camp with the body of a 22 year old and the mind of a rabid dog hungry for the puck. Anything short of that equals pressbox in my book. 

[radoran]

We all can't continue to eat the **** sandwiches that Paul Holmgren made Homer got for us.

 

It was actually frozen yogurt. Here is actual video of Homer negotiating with Vinny's agent:

 

[murraycraven]

@idahophilly

 

Wait one second there. You admit to his skill declining yet want to offer second line minutes? So if I understand this correctly the Flyers 1st rounder from 2011 has to waste yet another year of development on the 3rd line? Basically being relegated to a checking specialist? I'm not trying to be a dick here, but Hextall, Hakstol and the Fans deserve better. We all can't continue to eat the **** sandwiches that Paul Holmgren made for us. 

 

If Vinny Lecavalier was worthy of 2nd line minutes, this thread would not exist. If and I mean if VLC is truly worthy. he'll show up to camp with the body of a 22 year old and the mind of a rabid dog hungry for the puck. Anything short of that equals pressbox in my book. 

[jammer2]

 

@jammer2

"C) The fans and the media make the non stop pressure to much to take, not worth the hassle.....WE CAN DO THIS!!   ha ha"

Philadelphia fans are the best at being the worst. Let's make this dude cry himself to sleep. HAHAHAHAHA

 

I like you option the best

 

 

 What's that, the team needs us to be negative?  Fortunatley, we were born to be negative, it's every Flyer fans God given right....lol.

[idahophilly]

@idahophilly

 

Wait one second there. You admit to his skill declining yet want to offer second line minutes? So if I understand this correctly the Flyers 1st rounder from 2011 has to waste yet another year of development on the 3rd line? Basically being relegated to a checking specialist? I'm not trying to be a dick here, but Hextall, Hakstol and the Fans deserve better. We all can't continue to eat the **** sandwiches that Paul Holmgren made for us. 

 

If Vinny Lecavalier was worthy of 2nd line minutes, this thread would not exist. If and I mean if VLC is truly worthy. he'll show up to camp with the body of a 22 year old and the mind of a rabid dog hungry for the puck. Anything short of that equals pressbox in my book. 

You are being ambiguous. What are you trying to say?

 

OK, put him on the 3rd like I said initially. Put him on the 4th and kick Bellmare out. Go with 3 defense men and form a 5th line. I don't personally give 2 craps anymore. He's on the team. If he is gonna put skates on then grow a pair and play him like you mean it. If they are not committed to playing him then he sits in the press box ALL the time. Not part of the time. All of it. My point to the thread is you go all in on him or not at all. I'll be more frustrated watching him as a 4th line winger again. That means who ever is making the decision is no better than Berube. 

 

Besides, don't get all huffy puffy. I didn't sign him to the contract. I'm just exploring what to do with the guy. You can't take him out back and shoot him which seems to be what 2/3 of the fans want... 

 

I don't even really care what happens to the Flyers as a team this year and that's because I don't see anyway of any of the kids having room to play unless Hextall works more magic and I said at the beginning of my thread here , for the sake of argument, take that off the table. Right now it's just a wish. 

 

I just want to see a few bounce back seasons from a few guys and a system for the team. That's it. Anything beyond that is gravy. 

 

I just tend to deal with things the way they are that are beyond my control. This is out of my control so I prefer to find the best use for the guy. 

[King Knut]

Greetings:

Boy, this dude brings out some interesting debate. And only time will tell if he can perform...

Putting aside cap and roster issues, his presence blocks progression of someone younger. For a team that needs rebuilding, that's scary. And while D and G seem to be improved going into '15-16, our forward corps beyond the first line is not so hot. Vinny's presence clogs change.

Howie

I agree that the offense is sketchy at best but who do we have that he's blocking a roster spot for?

Most seem to think Laughton needs another AHL year. Aside from him...?

[Mad Dog]

I agree that the offense is sketchy at best but who do we have that he's blocking a roster spot for?

Most seem to think Laughton needs another AHL year. Aside from him...?

 

That's the way I see it too.  I can't think of anybody who he is stealing a roster spot from.  And the truth is, if there *was* somebody in the system who would be a no-brainer to make the team, the Flyers would find a way to find a roster spot for that player.

[Bertmega]

@idahophilly

 

I wasn't huffy, I was Schwinn 

 

I agree with the all or none approach, but so long as the "All" part doesn't have him eating up 2nd line center minutes.....I say to the pressbox for VLC, that is essentially the same as taking him out back and shooting him,.....

[Bertmega]

I don't get it.....

This guy is better