Blow this mess up or stay course!

[caluso]

7 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't have any problem with the specific names you mention.  I have a hard time believing Streit will be here past the trade deadline. 

 

Schenn is a nice piece that just doesn't fit here.  He could actually garner something decent. 

 

Read stopped being useful about 3 years ago. 

 

Couturier gets his own thread.   If that's "blowing it up,"  I think I'm okay. 

 

The rest will take care of itself as we replace by attrition.   We're getting there.  It's just a painful as hell ride. 

Rux

They should identify the real core, those who will be productive in 3 or 4 years when the team will be ready to challenge for the Cup. Anybody else should be available. That is what I mean.

Now, having said that, my core does not include Schenn or Couturier. My core is  only Jake, Simmonds, Konecny, Provorov and Lyubimov (who plays hard every shift, every game)

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, caluso said:

Rux

They should identify the real core, those who will be productive in 3 or 4 years when the team will be ready to challenge for the Cup. Anybody else should be available. That is what I mean.

Now, having said that, my core does not include Schenn or Couturier. My core is  only Jake, Simmonds, Konecny, Provorov and Lyubimov (who plays hard every shift, every game)

Yeah. 

My core also includes Giroux.  I'm not sure he should be the captain.   I still maintain the Flyers did the Flyer thing and screwed up the captaincy. 

 

But that is what it is.  He's still core.  I otherwise agree with who you identified.   I wouldn't be shocked if that's the plan, though (except Coots.  The plan doesn't seem to be to move him.  I would for the right deal.  I'm okay with him at 3C, though) 

[caluso]

16 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah. 

My core also includes Giroux.  I'm not sure he should be the captain.   I still maintain the Flyers did the Flyer thing and screwed up the captaincy. 

 

But that is what it is.  He's still core.  I otherwise agree with who you identified.   I wouldn't be shocked if that's the plan, though (except Coots.  The plan doesn't seem to be to move him.  I would for the right deal.  I'm okay with him at 3C, though) 

I really hope there is a sell off.

[icehole]

@ruxpin

You make a lot of good points.  I think last year was an illusion, and hoping to do anything this year was probably a product of finally getting to see some fruits of hextall's drafts.  The flyers aren't good right now and they shouldn't be if you are on board with hextall's plan.

 

However I am not on board with his plan because I don't believe in not doing everything possible to win every year.  That means signing "stupid" contracts sometimes to big time players.  However (again), if you are going to go hextall's route, go all in on it.  There is too much of a gap in the experience level right now.  We have vets like giroux , voracek, and simmond  (not that they are too old) mixed with provorov, konecney, and talent that hasn't played one NHL game yet.  Once the young guys are good enough to be part of a cup contending team, the other guys will be on the downsides of their careers.

 

If hextall went all in last off season, traded giroux, voracek, and couturier (take it easy on me...it's just a hypothetical), think of how many pieces they could have got in return.  They would have been terrible this season and had a really high pick, maybe another high pick acquired from a trade, and more picks for the next draft probably.  Add in some young prospects they probably could have acquire from the trades, and in a year or two, the team could be stacked for the next decade.

 

[ruxpin]

57 minutes ago, icehole said:

@ruxpin

You make a lot of good points.  I think last year was an illusion, and hoping to do anything this year was probably a product of finally getting to see some fruits of hextall's drafts.  The flyers aren't good right now and they shouldn't be if you are on board with hextall's plan.

 

However I am not on board with his plan because I don't believe in not doing everything possible to win every year.  That means signing "stupid" contracts sometimes to big time players.  However (again), if you are going to go hextall's route, go all in on it.  There is too much of a gap in the experience level right now.  We have vets like giroux , voracek, and simmond  (not that they are too old) mixed with provorov, konecney, and talent that hasn't played one NHL game yet.  Once the young guys are good enough to be part of a cup contending team, the other guys will be on the downsides of their careers.

 

If hextall went all in last off season, traded giroux, voracek, and couturier (take it easy on me...it's just a hypothetical), think of how many pieces they could have got in return.  They would have been terrible this season and had a really high pick, maybe another high pick acquired from a trade, and more picks for the next draft probably.  Add in some young prospects they probably could have acquire from the trades, and in a year or two, the team could be stacked for the next decade.

 

 

Hi icehole,

 

Here's the thing (and time will tell, of course), I think we are "all in" on Hextall's plan.   If -- IF -- he is following the LA Kings recipe, at some point in the next year or two he's going to make the trade(s) to fill that gap.   Lombardi at some point did the Richards/Carter moves, among others.    Now, we're not there yet.   We've already miraculously sheadded some albatross contracts (Pronger, VLC Sucks, the crap Schenn, etc.), but we still have some to go (Streit, MacDonald) until we can play that game.  Until then, we're percolating our draft picks/prospects to be ready for when we have the cap room to add some significant pieces up front.    At that  point, it's a kaziillion dollars for a scoring winger and a stud C about the age Ghost and some of the other prospects will be at that point (including one or two of our goalies--probably someone and Hart), and off we go.  

 

In theory, of course.   Let's just hope the kazillion above isn't spent on someone out of hockey 4 years later (we can talk about the cost/ROI of 2 cups balanced by over a decade of cap hell.  Right NOW, I'll take the parades, but the view may be different on the other side).

[icehole]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

Hi icehole,

 

Here's the thing (and time will tell, of course), I think we are "all in" on Hextall's plan.   If -- IF -- he is following the LA Kings recipe, at some point in the next year or two he's going to make the trade(s) to fill that gap.   Lombardi at some point did the Richards/Carter moves, among others.    Now, we're not there yet.   We've already miraculously sheadded some albatross contracts (Pronger, VLC Sucks, the crap Schenn, etc.), but we still have some to go (Streit, MacDonald) until we can play that game.  Until then, we're percolating our draft picks/prospects to be ready for when we have the cap room to add some significant pieces up front.    At that  point, it's a kaziillion dollars for a scoring winger and a stud C about the age Ghost and some of the other prospects will be at that point (including one or two of our goalies--probably someone and Hart), and off we go.  

 

In theory, of course.   Let's just hope the kazillion above isn't spent on someone out of hockey 4 years later (we can talk about the cost/ROI of 2 cups balanced by over a decade of cap hell.  Right NOW, I'll take the parades, but the view may be different on the other side).

I guess that all depends on what hextall's plan actually is.  I think people accepted being losers for a while as long as there was a bright future ahead (I was not one of those people).  When they kept the core players, made the playoffs last year, and had a 10 game winning streak this year, I get the impression that hextall is also trying to compete while trying to build at the same time.  I can respect that but I'm not that is the best thing for the team...in fact, it might be the worst.

 

If you lay out 3 scenarios, this current one might be the worst.  You can blow it up and start from square one.  You will lose for a few years, but if you do it right, you should have an exciting team in the future.  You can add pieces to what you already have.  You'll have ups and downs, and by the time your "future" is here, the "present" will be more like your "past".  Or you can go for broke.  You should always be competitive but you might not have what it takes to get over the hump.

 

I'm just afraid that hextall's middle scenario is going to put the flyers right back to where they were before, but we had to endure a losing mentality for a few years.  The pulse of hockey has flatlined in Philadelphia.  I don't know what everyone else pays attention to as far as Philadelphia sports, but I think I am tied in more than most.  I listen to sports radio for 8 hours a day and I watch the news.  Here's how the topics rank right now.

Cowboys losing is the biggest story

12-26 sixers are creating a buzz.

Eagles

NFL playoffs

NBA in general

Flyers

College basketball 

Phillies talk will ramp up once spring training starts.

Hextall has drained any excitement for hockey out of the city of Philadelphia.

 

The sixers were at the bottom of the excitement tree for a long time.  The reason they have the most buzz at 10-26 is because they tanked to get #1, 2, and 3 overall picks.  With the exception of the Kings, what cup winners in the past 10 years have done it by getting the 7-15 pick in the draft...anaheim maybe?  Pitt and Chicago got the #1 (going to be a HOFer) player in the draft to go along with malkin (2nd) and toews (3rd).  The flyers will never get that with hextall's current plan.

[flyercanuck]

10 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

My opinion has been the same for a few years now, and that is blow it up. Sneaking into the playoffs does nothing for me. I was a teenager playing competitive hockey in the 70's so I felt the euphoria of the cup wins. That is what I want. Drafting at the 17 position does not get you players to build a cup team around. You need to draft in the top 3 for a year or 3 if you seriously want a cup contender.There is no other way. There are only 3 players on this roster who I believe can contribute to a cup. 9, 11 and 93. I am a huge Giroux fan but he is a diminishing asset, as is everyone else on the current team. If you hang on to players too long, your asset value drops. The NHL will continue to get younger, bigger and faster and careers will become shorter due to the severity of injuries, so you have to be realistic with your assets. I would much rather watch a young team that tries hard than this current group while the assets accumulate. Thats just me though.

 

So you have to draft top 3 to get players that can help you contend...then you name 3 players off our roster who can help us contend none of whom were drafted top 3.

 

Duncan Keith is as big a piece in Chicago as anyone. Picked 2nd round. So is/was Corey Crawford. Kris Letang in Pittsburgh...3rd round. Justin Williams was a late 1st rounder. Bergeron was a 2nd. Those were all key components to cup runs. I could go on and on. 

 

 Of course it's easier to acquire top end talent picking top 3...but there's no guarantees. There'll always be the Daigles/Stefans/Yakupovs just like there'll always be a Jamie Benn in the 5th round. The more picks you have, the better chance of getting one. Hextall IS doing that part right.

[SpikeDDS]

From the outside:

 

I see parallels between the Red Wings of the past few years, with one difference being I think your draft picks are promising. But as far as the Red Wings go, "competing" every year with no REAL chance of winning a Cup has been damaging to our team, especially since we waited until AFTER generational talents like McDavid, Eichel, Matthews and Leine went in their drafts. We missed that window. So did you, but you had more to show in the last couple of drafts with the exception of Larkin for us. (Mantha was earlier.)

 

The hard part is dealing with the mindset of the fan who wants a winning team every year and NOW! There are a lot of fans who think that way. Not realistic. Yeah, we had (note the past tense) 25 years of playoffs, but, especially of late, how many of those were we the 15th or 16th team with NO CHANCE of making a Cup run? We SHOULD have sold off assets while we had them.

 

Now, I don't think we have anything to give anyone that will even bring a first-rounder. We need picks, and we don't have any assets that can get us the picks we need. We waited too long, all the while confusing "competing" with mediocrity. THAT, my friends, is the kiss of death.

[Bertmega]

10 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

My opinion has been the same for a few years now, and that is blow it up. Sneaking into the playoffs does nothing for me. I was a teenager playing competitive hockey in the 70's so I felt the euphoria of the cup wins. That is what I want. Drafting at the 17 position does not get you players to build a cup team around. You need to draft in the top 3 for a year or 3 if you seriously want a cup contender. There is no other way. There are only 3 players on this roster who I believe can contribute to a cup. 9, 11 and 93. I am a huge Giroux fan but he is a diminishing asset, as is everyone else on the current team. If you hang on to players too long, your asset value drops. The NHL will continue to get younger, bigger and faster and careers will become shorter due to the severity of injuries, so you have to be realistic with your assets. I would much rather watch a young team that tries hard than this current group while the assets accumulate. Thats just me though.

While I can agree with a lot you say, I don't think they need to draft top 3 to build a team. We just need solid scouting.

Look at Detroit, they didn't have a top 3 pick and they were arguably the most successful  franchise in modern history. 

Also, Gagne, Williams, Carter and Richards are great pieces that could have landed a cup with the proper supporting cast, and they were late picks.

 

Where I am at is shed some dead weight this summer and make a solid bid in the free agent market.

 

[mojo1917]

12 hours ago, icehole said:

 He's trying to "contend" while building a young core.

Either go the old flyers route and go for it every year, or sell the farm and build from the beginning.  Don't go half in.

 

this is the old "you can't eat half a **** sandwich" idea. I think it applies.

 

I often vacillate when it comes to tank or compete, I usually want to compete, two of my favorite sports teams tried to gut the roster and start fresh, it took the Orioles 15 years to rid themselves of the loser stink, and let's not talk about the Sixers... though, when Ben Simmons comes back they'll be a guard away from being pretty nice. 

I like that a bad year for our team is a year when our guys are 5 games above .500, that does mean though we never get the chance to draft an Austin Matthews Connor McDavid or Jack Eichel though.

 

Giroux is a very, very good player but he isn't a transcendent talent like Crosby, or Kane or Mc Jesus.  Ideally, to win you would need a team with 2.5 Giroux's like the Joe Sakic era Avalanche to win championships, our team has only the one, because Couturier and Schenn aren't Forseberg and Drury. 

So do we wait on Rubstov and the other Russian Vorobyov and the Swede Lindblom and hope that some of the good young guys in LV can be impact players in the NHL ?  

It's tough, trying to field a competitive team and rebuild simultaneously is maddening

[icehole]

52 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

So you have to draft top 3 to get players that can help you contend...then you name 3 players off our roster who can help us contend none of whom were drafted top 3.

 

Duncan Keith is as big a piece in Chicago as anyone. Picked 2nd round. So is/was Corey Crawford. Kris Letang in Pittsburgh...3rd round. Justin Williams was a late 1st rounder. Bergeron was a 2nd. Those were all key components to cup runs. I could go on and on. 

 

 Of course it's easier to acquire top end talent picking top 3...but there's no guarantees. There'll always be the Daigles/Stefans/Yakupovs just like there'll always be a Jamie Benn in the 5th round. The more picks you have, the better chance of getting one. Hextall IS doing that part right.

Yes, but those teams don't win the cup without Kane (1), toews (3), Crosby (1), seguin (2) and malkin (2).  Keith, Crawford, letang, and Bergeron aren't winning cups alone.

[DaGreatGazoo]

14 hours ago, caluso said:

Which brings me to my last point: Chris Pryor has to go. The organization's ability to judge talent is laughable

 

Honest question, did you watch any of the World Juniors?  The Flyers had 9 players in the tournament and it would have been 11 if the Flyers released Provy and Konecy.  Every single expert/pundit/announcer RAVED about the young talent in the Flyers pipeline.  

If you want to complain about their recent UFA signings, I have to agree, Gordon and Weiss aren't exactly setting the pace for them.  But to say they can't judge talent is simply wrong.   We have to see if that potential talent equates to NHL players, but they have ton an excellent job of drafting talented young, potential NHL players.  I would argue it's been decades since they've had so many young players in the organization.   

[fanaticV3.0]

15 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

I agree but let me play devil's advocate here....    What has Hextall done other than sign players to overly bloated contracts?   

 

Patience is one thing....   But being patient in the face of a faulty plan is just not going to produce.    My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   

 

I don't know the answer but I also believe that Hextall needs to be held to a high standard.    Juat being better than Homer is not gonna get us anywhere....   

 

Frankly, I am not so sure that he has proven to be even that. This team has accomplished almost nothing during his tenure – although that has not been very long..

[mojo1917]

14 hours ago, caluso said:

Which brings me to my last point: Chris Pryor has to go. The organization's ability to judge talent is laughable. The Rangers and Blackhawks are two teams that habitually acquire real talent with late round picks or free agents. The Flyers....not so much.

 

I think you are making a lot of good points in this thread, this, however, I disagree with "strenuously".

 

The Flyers have done pretty well with their picks in the last since whenever, Giroux: late first rounder, Ghost third round,  Richards late first round,  Phillpe Meyers, Reece  Wilcox, Anthony Stolarz all taken in later rounds. 

I think a lot of people were wrong about Couturier's ceiling, not just the Flyers, the dude scored 96 points while having mono in junior hockey, that's not easy, I didn't like the Laughton pick but that's about it.  We're finding good players in Russia and Sweden, I think Pryor is not "the problem" not even a little bit.

[murraycraven]

39 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Frankly, I am not so sure that he has proven to be even that. This team has accomplished almost nothing during his tenure – although that has not been very long..

 

 

Agree.... 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

Yes, but those teams don't win the cup without Kane (1), toews (3), Crosby (1), seguin (2) and malkin (2).  Keith, Crawford, letang, and Bergeron aren't winning cups alone.

 

Good point.

 

Even the Kings had Doughty (2). Brown (13) Carter(11) Richards (24) Gagne (22) Williams (28) Kopitar (11)

 

...man that is a lot of 1st round talent right there. But they did have a 3rd round goalie though....

[fanaticV3.0]

35 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I think you are making a lot of good points in this thread, this, however, I disagree with "strenuously".

 

The Flyers have done pretty well with their picks in the last since whenever, Giroux: late first rounder, Ghost third round,  Richards late first round,  Phillpe Meyers, Reece  Wilcox, Anthony Stolarz all taken in later rounds. 

I think a lot of people were wrong about Couturier's ceiling, not just the Flyers, the dude scored 96 points while having mono in junior hockey, that's not easy, I didn't like the Laughton pick but that's about it.  We're finding good players in Russia and Sweden, I think Pryor is not "the problem" not even a little bit.

 

 

[Adamflyers]

The simple answer is stay the course.  Hexy has been sitting under the heavy weight of some very bad contracts from which he is now starting to see the light of day.  He is, of course, not without fault in some of his moves.  I hated the Gordon and Weise signings from day one.  I loved the idea of Ryan White being a long term player on our 4th line and was pretty surprised when Hexy gave up on him for Weise.  Short of that, I like what Hexy is doing as far as refusing to trade away any young pieces for quick fixes.  He has drafted well thus far and I think we all just need to hang on a little longer before we see the fruits of our patience.  We also need to wait for the cap situation of clear itself up, at which point we can see if he has any ideas about improving the team through free agency.  I'm as sick as anyone else with the way they have been playing recently, especially since when the year began I had high hopes that this team would surprise us and be further along in their development.  Hopefully this season is giving Hexy the chance to really see who is untouchable and who is expendable so that he can trim the fat sooner than later.

 

I have gone with the old way of thinking for far too long with nothing to show for it.  I'm on board with Hexy still. 

[mojo1917]

@fanaticV3.0

 

yes. really.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/sean_couturier/

 

http://www.allaboutthejersey.com/2011/6/10/2212211/sean-couturier-not-done-yet-2011-nhl-entry-draft-prospect-profile

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-next-ones-–-nhl-2011-draft-prospect-profile-–-sean-couturier-–-ten-tool-prospect/

 

So only the hockey writer's article casts some doubts on where Couturier would wind up and they were saying Jordan Staal...whom at that time was a pretty good player. 

 

hindsight is never wrong. projecting what a child will become when they are 17, whole different ballgame.

 

[fanaticV3.0]

4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@fanaticV3.0

 

yes. really.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/sean_couturier/

 

http://www.allaboutthejersey.com/2011/6/10/2212211/sean-couturier-not-done-yet-2011-nhl-entry-draft-prospect-profile

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-next-ones-–-nhl-2011-draft-prospect-profile-–-sean-couturier-–-ten-tool-prospect/

 

So only the hockey writer's article casts some doubts on where Couturier would wind up and they were saying Jordan Staal...whom at that time was a pretty good player. 

 

hindsight is never wrong. projecting what a child will become when they are 17, whole different ballgame.

 

 

Time to move on from Sean Couturier’s juniors career, bro.

[mojo1917]

@fanaticV3.0

 

keep on willfully missing my point, it makes trying to communicate with you all kinds of awesome.

 

I will spell it out for you. ALL the scouts were wrong about #14's ceiling, not just the Flyers... all of them. see ?

Nowhere am I saying "he should be better because, juniors"  I am saying nearly everyone got his projection wrong.

Which in the context of my post defending Chris Pryor and his scouting is completely relevant.  

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

it makes trying to communicate with you all kinds of awesome.

 

Good luck with that....

 

[Podein25]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I understand this is part of the process.  I'm okay with it. 

 

Trust. The. Process.

[fanaticV3.0]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@fanaticV3.0

 

keep on willfully missing my point, it makes trying to communicate with you all kinds of awesome.

 

I will spell it out for you. ALL the scouts were wrong about #14's ceiling, not just the Flyers... all of them. see ?

Nowhere am I saying "he should be better because, juniors"  I am saying nearly everyone got his projection wrong.

Which in the context of my post defending Chris Pryor and his scouting is completely relevant.  

 

 

I don't care about scouting reports from six years ago. I don't care who they came from or how many people said it. I don't care what he was "supposed to be", I care about what is. I'm not trying to annoy you and if I misunderstood you, I am sorry. But after six seasons in the league, it's time to stop talking about  what people said he would be and talk about what he is – and whether that has a place on this team or not.

 

Personally, I think he does, but they have to start using him in the right situations. He is not a second line center. He should be playing on the third line and our first line on the penalty kill. He is not a failure because predictions about him were wrong, however the Organ-I-zation needs to stop insisting he is a top six player.

[mojo1917]

23 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

Personally, I think he does, but they have to start using him in the right situations. He is not a second line center. He should be playing on the third line and our first line on the penalty kill. He is not a failure because predictions about him were wrong, however the Organ-I-zation needs to stop insisting he is a top six player.

 

 

This is reasonable and I agree.

 

Caluso was saying (to paraphrase) "Chris Pryor is the problem,". I don't think that's the case.

 I was pointing out Pryor's and the (scouting staff's) big misses which I think can fairly include Laughton and Couturier. I think the pick of Scott Laughton when Olli Maata was still on board is a miss, In the case of Couturier the Flyers staff was "with the herd" thinking that Sean Couturier would be a top 6 pro- you are right, we're seeing this is not the case. 

 

23 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

I don't care about scouting reports from six years ago. I don't care who they came from or how many people said it. I don't care what he was "supposed to be",

 

 

 

I didn't appreciate the snark because you weren't making sandwiches with lunch meat, cheese and bread I was putting on the table.