AlaskaFlyerFan Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I seem to remember that Steven Stamkos had a rough time his first year in the NHL. Look how he turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said: I seem to remember that Steven Stamkos had a rough time his first year in the NHL. Look how he turned out. Stamkos scored 23 goals and had 46 points as a rookie. Say more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 46 minutes ago, radoran said: Stamkos scored 23 goals and had 46 points as a rookie. Say more? Yeah, but that was only 23 goals and 23 assists in 79 games. Nolan has 2g 5a in 29 games. That projects to 5 goals and 14 assistesses in 79 games. It's pretty much the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I'm not sure it's fair to consider him a bust after half a season. That said, you're right in that he may not end up being a game changer type of guy -- more Sam Reinhart than Patrik Laine. It happens. That said, he's young, we currently have a questionable coaching staff, and it's only been half a season. Maybe let's not write him off as a complete bust just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 9 hours ago, radoran said: Stamkos scored 23 goals and had 46 points as a rookie. Say more? This was my point. "Though Stamkos was heavily criticized for his lack of production during the first half of the season, in which he was limited to less than 10 minutes of ice time some games." give the kid a chance. Let him get a full season under his belt before you declare him a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 2 hours ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said: This was my point. "Though Stamkos was heavily criticized for his lack of production during the first half of the season, in which he was limited to less than 10 minutes of ice time some games." give the kid a chance. Let him get a full season under his belt before you declare him a bust. I agree with that completely and have never declared him a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 "This guy's a bust, but if you want him, it will cost you two 1st round picks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropicalFruitGirl26 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 8 hours ago, radoran said: I agree with that completely and have never declared him a bust. 7 hours ago, JR Ewing said: "This guy's a bust, but if you want him, it will cost you two 1st round picks." Relaaaax, guys... William Shakespeare was a bust too...but he turned out alright... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 9 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said: Relaaaax, guys... William Shakespeare was a bust too...but he turned out alright... I'm a man who appreciates a good bust! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poconono Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Not a bust, but certainly a disappointment so far. Especially when you see the contributions by others picked in the same draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Poconono said: Not a bust, but certainly a disappointment so far. Especially when you see the contributions by others picked in the same draft. Well other than Hischier (who was picked before him) no one else is doing any better than Patrick, NHL-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 3 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Well other than Hischier (who was picked before him) no one else is doing any better than Patrick, NHL-wise. In fact, he has more goals, more points and more games played that everyone picked after him - combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 21 hours ago, Poconono said: Not a bust, but certainly a disappointment so far. Especially when you see the contributions by others picked in the same draft. and that would be the #1 overall pick....so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 12/29/2017 at 9:56 AM, caluso said: I want to be clear, I am not saying that Patrick will be a bust or doesn't have a future in the NHL, but for such a highly touted prospect, he looks lost out there, looks to be in way over his head. It is painful to watch! He certainly does not look like the second best player in the draft. I know that surgeries set him back last summer, but we are halfway through the season and his game has not improved one iota since the beginning of the season and that is very alarming. In fact, his game has actually regressed as he has morphed into a turnover / high-sticking-penalty machine. It pains me to say, but Patrick is the worst player on the team right now (toss up with Sanheim) and Hakstol agrees with that assessment, as he has no trust in him whatsoever. Why not sit him or send him to the AHL (can they even do that?) to rebuild his confidence. Just stop. His game hasn’t regressed it’s gotten better. This season is probably a bust for him becaue his conditioning is so terrible. But the skills are far and away better than we’re seeing. Milk go as far as to say that aside from Ghost, I don’t think there’s a better pure stick handler or more dangerous shot on the Flyers. Problem is is if you can’t get to where you need to be to shoot or you can’t keep up with the other guys on the ice, it doesn’t matter how good you are with the puck. It sucks but we need to give him time. He should be in the AHL but he’s not allowed. Many think he should have gone back to the OHL, I tend not to agree... but he’s far from a bust. This is the fan base that thought Couturier was a bust for 6 years. The main things holding him back are his skating and that he’s just not in good enough shape conditioning wise for the NHL at this point. He played half a season in juniors on a misdiagnosed injury that was only corrected over the summer. Meaning he was out of shape when he was drafted and he couldn’t spend the summer getting into shape. Most of the time when he “looks lost” it’s because he flat out just can’t keep up for 60 minutes. To my eyes he’s going into corners more and battling for pucks and negotiating with the bigger players of the NHL much better in recent weeks. Im not worried about him. I’m far more worried about the other 22 guys who don’t seem to give a rip when they go out to play terrible teams and only show up when they play good ones. Patrick will take more time. If NJ had taken him, we’d have Hischier and we could all complain about him instead because he’d b terrible too if he was playing between Weise and Lehtera. They’re trying different looks. Let’s see how he does. The other thing to to keep in mind is usage. Homer dumped JVR for squat Schenn becaus he didn’t have the compete level homer wanted. Well turns out JVR is a 30 goal scorer all along. Great player? Nope. Decent goal scorer? Yep. Just gotta use him right to take advantage. John LeClair’s goal production dropped dramatically when Hitchcock took over. Sure Lindros was gone, but LeClairnplayed plenty without lindros before that and still scored. It was because Hitch didn’t utilize JLC to take advantage of his skill set. Also why Rusty and Willy failed here and becam great NHLers elsewhere. Probably why Gagne was only ever pretty good as a flyer despite Lemieux telling the world he was the best guy he played with at the Olympics. Also why Coots never broke 15 goals til this year. Coaching matters. Systems matter. Circumstances matter. Give him him a year or two... let him play between better wingers consistently let him get into shape. Let’s see what happens. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caluso Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 4 hours ago, King Knut said: Just stop. His game hasn’t regressed it’s gotten better. This season is probably a bust for him becaue his conditioning is so terrible. But the skills are far and away better than we’re seeing. Milk go as far as to say that aside from Ghost, I don’t think there’s a better pure stick handler or more dangerous shot on the Flyers. Problem is is if you can’t get to where you need to be to shoot or you can’t keep up with the other guys on the ice, it doesn’t matter how good you are with the puck. It sucks but we need to give him time. He should be in the AHL but he’s not allowed. Many think he should have gone back to the OHL, I tend not to agree... but he’s far from a bust. This is the fan base that thought Couturier was a bust for 6 years. The main things holding him back are his skating and that he’s just not in good enough shape conditioning wise for the NHL at this point. He played half a season in juniors on a misdiagnosed injury that was only corrected over the summer. Meaning he was out of shape when he was drafted and he couldn’t spend the summer getting into shape. Most of the time when he “looks lost” it’s because he flat out just can’t keep up for 60 minutes. To my eyes he’s going into corners more and battling for pucks and negotiating with the bigger players of the NHL much better in recent weeks. Im not worried about him. I’m far more worried about the other 22 guys who don’t seem to give a rip when they go out to play terrible teams and only show up when they play good ones. Patrick will take more time. If NJ had taken him, we’d have Hischier and we could all complain about him instead because he’d b terrible too if he was playing between Weise and Lehtera. They’re trying different looks. Let’s see how he does. The other thing to to keep in mind is usage. Homer dumped JVR for squat Schenn becaus he didn’t have the compete level homer wanted. Well turns out JVR is a 30 goal scorer all along. Great player? Nope. Decent goal scorer? Yep. Just gotta use him right to take advantage. John LeClair’s goal production dropped dramatically when Hitchcock took over. Sure Lindros was gone, but LeClairnplayed plenty without lindros before that and still scored. It was because Hitch didn’t utilize JLC to take advantage of his skill set. Also why Rusty and Willy failed here and becam great NHLers elsewhere. Probably why Gagne was only ever pretty good as a flyer despite Lemieux telling the world he was the best guy he played with at the Olympics. Also why Coots never broke 15 goals til this year. Coaching matters. Systems matter. Circumstances matter. Give him him a year or two... let him play between better wingers consistently let him get into shape. Let’s see what happens. It’s a marathon not a sprint. I agree with some of what you said, most notably, that he should not have started the season with the Flyers. You are right: he was still recovering from two terrible groin injuries/surgeries that set him back and, as a result, he was not ready to start the season with the big boys. Patrick did not earn his spot with his play during the preseason, he was gifted a spot on the team - simply a terrible decision by Hextall. However, I have no idea what you are watching when you write: "To my eyes he’s going into corners more and battling for pucks and negotiating with the bigger players of the NHL much better in recent weeks." Patrick's play has not gotten any better nor has his strength or ability to battle for pucks. Unlike Provorov, who is a pit bull battling in the corners and along the boards and almost always comes away with the puck, Patrick is still shockingly soft in the corners and rarely wins a puck battle. But, to your original point - he did not start the season at full strength so I am sure that has something to do with it (though desire goes a long way, too). But the thing that I find most shocking about Patrick, is his play with the puck. He seems so rushed and unconfident that he gets rid of the puck so quickly and oftentimes it is a turnover the other way. He is directly responsible for several goals against and innumerable scoring opportunities by the opposition because of his lack of patience with the puck. I am sure you see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 31 minutes ago, caluso said: I agree with some of what you said, most notably, that he should not have started the season with the Flyers. You are right: he was still recovering from two terrible groin injuries/surgeries that set him back and, as a result, he was not ready to start the season with the big boys. Patrick did not earn his spot with his play during the preseason, he was gifted a spot on the team - simply a terrible decision by Hextall. However, I have no idea what you are watching when you write: "To my eyes he’s going into corners more and battling for pucks and negotiating with the bigger players of the NHL much better in recent weeks." Patrick's play has not gotten any better nor has his strength or ability to battle for pucks. Unlike Provorov, who is a pit bull battling in the corners and along the boards and almost always comes away with the puck, Patrick is still shockingly soft in the corners and rarely wins a puck battle. But, to your original point - he did not start the season at full strength so I am sure that has something to do with it (though desire goes a long way, too). But the thing that I find most shocking about Patrick, is his play with the puck. He seems so rushed and unconfident that he gets rid of the puck so quickly and oftentimes it is a turnover the other way. He is directly responsible for several goals against and innumerable scoring opportunities by the opposition because of his lack of patience with the puck. I am sure you see this. Ha ha... I didn't say he was "winning" the battles. And comparing to Provorov isn't really fair as the roles are and will remain so completely different. Patrick's a center in the NHL on a Dave Hakstol team. There aren't many more complicated positions in sports. To boot, he's physically unprepared for it. I'm not worried about Patrick or his compete level at this point. Remember Giroux and Ghost last season after their abdominal surgeries? I think the physical stuff and the mental stuff are just tougher with him because of a number of factors. I see little glimpses here and there of him starting to put a few things together and that's positive to me. I don't think he's going to suddenly start pouring on goals this year... mostly because he's not fast or aggressive enough to get to where he needs to be just yet. I do not however think sending him back to juniors would have been very good for him. It may have avoided the concussion... maybe. But the long and short of it is that this is a guy who scored 20 goals and 46 points in 33 games for the Wheat Kings last year while playing on a hernia and a misdiagnosed abdominal injury and he openly admitted he would get winded and exhausted after 5 minutes he was so out of shape... if he could produce like that while playing hurt and out of shape, the league wasn't going to help him progress and improve to the NHL level any faster if he'd spent a full season there. He was never going to be a Tavares, Matthews or McDavid type game changer for this team, but I have great confidence that he will be a very very good player for them. Hell, if he can just learn to head to the slot and take passes from Giroux or Jake, he could score 30 goals. He's that good with the puck. Right now, he just can't keep up. I believe he'll get there. Heart only goes so far. Give him this season to get his feet wet and an off season to put on some weight and get into cardio shape and let's see what happens. Patrick has a ton of skills you just can't teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 3:35 PM, caluso said: I agree with some of what you said, most notably, that he should not have started the season with the Flyers. You are right: he was still recovering from two terrible groin injuries/surgeries that set him back and, as a result, he was not ready to start the season with the big boys. Patrick did not earn his spot with his play during the preseason, he was gifted a spot on the team - simply a terrible decision by Hextall. However, I have no idea what you are watching when you write: "To my eyes he’s going into corners more and battling for pucks and negotiating with the bigger players of the NHL much better in recent weeks." Patrick's play has not gotten any better nor has his strength or ability to battle for pucks. Unlike Provorov, who is a pit bull battling in the corners and along the boards and almost always comes away with the puck, Patrick is still shockingly soft in the corners and rarely wins a puck battle. But, to your original point - he did not start the season at full strength so I am sure that has something to do with it (though desire goes a long way, too). But the thing that I find most shocking about Patrick, is his play with the puck. He seems so rushed and unconfident that he gets rid of the puck so quickly and oftentimes it is a turnover the other way. He is directly responsible for several goals against and innumerable scoring opportunities by the opposition because of his lack of patience with the puck. I am sure you see this. Just to jump back into this, I wonder if anyone feels any differently since this thread began? I really feel as though Patrick has played extremely better in recent games. Since shifting between Simmonds and Weal, Patrick's +2, has an assist (and essentially two "tertiary assists") and is playing 15+ minutes a night. His dish to Provo last night was a thing of beauty (though not quite as pretty as the one to Weise early in the season). But he was a big big part of Raffl's goal as well and of Weal's goal the night before. And he's not been costing them dearly in their own end at the same time. I'm not saying he's going to be scoring hat tricks soon or competing with Stamkos as per the thread above, but I do think he's showing sure signs of improving and coming along... which is realistically the best we can hope for. I want to acknowledge and applaud that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, King Knut said: Just to jump back into this, I wonder if anyone feels any differently since this thread began? I really feel as though Patrick has played extremely better in recent games. Since shifting between Simmonds and Weal, Patrick's +2, has an assist (and essentially two "tertiary assists") and is playing 15+ minutes a night. His dish to Provo last night was a thing of beauty (though not quite as pretty as the one to Weise early in the season). But he was a big big part of Raffl's goal as well and of Weal's goal the night before. And he's not been costing them dearly in their own end at the same time. I'm not saying he's going to be scoring hat tricks soon or competing with Stamkos as per the thread above, but I do think he's showing sure signs of improving and coming along... which is realistically the best we can hope for. I want to acknowledge and applaud that. Myself i would have loved to see him play for Team Canada in the junior tournament with other prospect his age. Team Canada could of used his services very unusual their forward depth for reasons i'm not aware of isn't where it usually is. Maybe @flyercanuck can shed some light on why that is. Would love to see him and future goalie Hart just bond some trying to win it all. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Myself i would have loved to see him play for Team Canada in the junior tournament with other prospect his age. Team Canada could of used his services very unusual their forward depth for reasons i'm not aware of isn't where it usually is. Maybe @flyercanuck can shed some light on why that is. Would love to see him and future goalie Hart just bond some trying to win it all. Oh well. That horse is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, King Knut said: That horse is dead. You must be new round these parts ain't no horse ever dead here! Let that be a lesson to ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said: You must be new round these parts ain't no horse ever dead here! Let that be a lesson to ya! Oh it's dead. Doesn't mean we can't still beat the hell out of it, but it is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 38 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Myself i would have loved to see him play for Team Canada in the junior tournament with other prospect his age. Team Canada could of used his services very unusual their forward depth for reasons i'm not aware of isn't where it usually is. Maybe @flyercanuck can shed some light on why that is. Would love to see him and future goalie Hart just bond some trying to win it all. Oh well. TC may not have an "elite" forward this year (McDavid type) but they scored more goals than any other team in the tournament, while allowing the fewest goals....in the tougher division .So there's that. I'd have liked to have seen Patrick on the team...I think it would have been good for him. But Canadas depth at forward is as good if not better than anyones...it's just an off year for that superstar type. And Mittlestadt proved you can't do it yourself...and having a one line team doesn't get you gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 33 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: You must be new round these parts ain't no horse ever dead here! Let that be a lesson to ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: TC may not have an "elite" forward this year (McDavid type) but they scored more goals than any other team in the tournament, while allowing the fewest goals....in the tougher division .So there's that. I'd have liked to have seen Patrick on the team...I think it would have been good for him. But Canadas depth at forward is as good if not better than anyones...it's just an off year for that superstar type. And Mittlestadt proved you can't do it yourself...and having a one line team doesn't get you gold. It's not clear to me that Patrick would even be able to keep up with his linemates. This is a very fast Team Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, Podein25 said: It's not clear to me that Patrick would even be able to keep up with his linemates. This is a very fast Team Canada. I agree fully. Very fast team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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