Do We Root for a loses

[Jam1986]

I have been a Flyers fan since before their first Cup. Do not want to see them tank. If anything bring more kids up who have the willingness that want to win. What you guys thimk?

[OccamsRazor]

Yes.

 

TANK.

 

But you will never see an athlete wanting to do that.

 

Sure they may not give their all during the games...however we also see this when there is something to play for.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Jam1986 said:

I have been a Flyers fan since before their first Cup. Do not want to see them tank. If anything bring more kids up who have the willingness that want to win. What you guys thimk?

I think you clear some space, like they've done, and start bringing up kids to see what they have. 

 

If they string some success together, terrific. But give them the chance to learn the NHL game and see what they have in a relatively low pressure situation. 

 

The aim should never be to tank. Take the results good or bad, because there's ultimately benefit to either. 

 

But continuing with bloated baggage like Weise or Weal or Lehtera  or McDreadful or even Folin at this point (I could make an argument for keeping one vet back there) is a choice with no benefit. 

[Poulin20]

I'm very torn as I am against purposeful tanking.  While I would love to see them get a blue chip impact player, the past 2 times we have won the 2nd pick the players have not lived up to their billing.  (The jury is out on Patrick but he hasn't made that immediate impact I was expecting.)  Also look at the Oilers.  They had the #1 forever and they still don't seem to be quite right so tanking doesn't always pay off.  The Pens are the best example I can think of where tanking worked but I think the NHL had something to do with it too as they didnt want them moving to KC.    

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

They had the #1 forever and they still don't seem to be quite right so tanking doesn't always pay off.

 

I think in their particular case their way is flawed because they never really invested in any top talent for their blueline or more importantly in goal.

 

The Flyers have evenly distributed their investment in talent throughout the roster more evenly (thanks Ron) the thing i guess that doesn't show right now is the different positions develop at different speeds as well as the individuals within those different positions.

 

It is coming along slowly. They have planted many seeds and it is just taking some time to show their fruits.

 

What has crippled the process so much is it takes the perfect marriage of player drafting and developing along with the meshing free agents to plug hole till the prospects are ready to take over.

 

And this part is where Ron faltered so much and we are seeing the results of.

 

His kryptonite was free agency.

 

Now it wasn't all that is was also combined with the players on the roster underperforming to add to the chaos that are the 2018-19 Flyers.

 

And in the Oilers case i don't think they will ever figure it out under their current GMs tenure.

 

Now will the Flyers under Fletcher??? Not sure but i have liked his two moves so far.

[radoran]

This isn't a situation like Pittsburgh used to tank to get Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, etc.

 

The draft lottery makes "tanking" a lot more difficult.

 

Then you add in the vagarities of who is available when - strong draft vs. weak draft, deep draft vs. shallow.

As Edmonton has ably shown, it is no guarantee of success.

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

The Pens are the best example I can think of where tanking worked but I think the NHL had something to do with it too as they didnt want them moving to KC.

 

And in the example they did address goalie (MAF) and defense (Lehtang) to add too their key forwards Crysby and Malkenstein.

 

Then add in other draft picks Orpik, Talbot, Whitney, Kennedy, Staal, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Maata and Guentzel to name a few.

 

Then added free agents through signings and trades like Kessel and Hagelin and Murray.

 

The core so to speak and it was successful winning 3 Cups to date.

 

It takes balance for it all when to resign guys and when to move or let them go. It ain't easy as we have seen...

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

And in the example they did address goalie (MAF) and defense (Lehtang) to add too their key forwards Crysby and Malkenstein.

 

And they also had the benefit of the #2 overall if they didn't get #1. The last place team has a 50/50 chance of dropping to 4 these days.

[OccamsRazor]

48 minutes ago, radoran said:

As Edmonton has ably shown, it is no guarantee of success.

 

Tell the Ducks that i was just looking at the standings this morning and i guess i haven't been paying attention but they must be trying to get to the number 1 spot.

 

They have lost 12 straight games!!!

 

 

DAYUM!!! 

 

And Carlyle still has a job...

 

 

...i would love to get Rickard Rakell from them...hhhhmmmmm.....

[briere48]

48 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And in the example they did address goalie (MAF) and defense (Lehtang) to add too their key forwards Crysby and Malkenstein.

 

Then add in other draft picks Orpik, Talbot, Whitney, Kennedy, Staal, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Maata and Guentzel to name a few.

 

Then added free agents through signings and trades like Kessel and Hagelin and Murray.

 

The core so to speak and it was successful winning 3 Cups to date.

 

It takes balance for it all when to resign guys and when to move or let them go. It ain't easy as we have seen...

if we dont get hughes, what do you think will help this team? because i have no clue how to fix this team.

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, briere48 said:

if we dont get hughes, what do you think will help this team? because i have no clue how to fix this team.

 

Depends Kakko could help a lot.

 

Podkolzin is another RW who could take a forwards spot....like Simmer's.

 

Cozens is a nice center to add to the collection.

 

Phillip Broberg is a nice Swedish defenseman but he would be off the board around 5-7 i think.

 

Depends on where they end up i guess. Or Chuck could flip the pick for someone who is closer to helping now.

 

Hard to say yet. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

It would piss me off to see the Avs end up with Jack Hughes and make the playoffs...it would suck.

 

However i could see the Senators tanking so they can concentrate more on improving their 2nd round pick since they don't own their own first...i am sure they would prefer the 32nd pick than say the 35th or 37th pick so no reason for them to want to win either.

[FD19372]

I don't root for a loss, because what happens if we end up drafting 5th or 6th? I state "Lose for Hughes" somewhat sarcastically. What I'm honestly rooting for, at this point, is to get rid of all of the overpaid garbage on our team. I want a change in some of the veteran core of this team.

[briere48]

23 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Depends Kakko could help a lot.

 

Podkolzin is another RW who could take a forwards spot....like Simmer's.

 

Cozens is a nice center to add to the collection.

 

Phillip Broberg is a nice Swedish defenseman but he would be off the board around 5-7 i think.

 

Depends on where they end up i guess. Or Chuck could flip the pick for someone who is closer to helping now.

 

Hard to say yet. 

 

 

is it too much to flip the pick to san jose for ek? because i know they wont sign him and they will probably need a younger defensemen.

[vis]

First off, they are not "last in the league" bad.  They are better than that, at least on paper.  Also, other teams are more equipped (or maybe less equipped) to win the race to the bottom.  I'd be shocked if they finished dead last.  So, the chance to get Hughes or Kaako seems too remote absent a fortuitous bounce of a ping pong ball.  But, they are certainly not a playoff team either.  I could see them ending up finishing in the bottom 5-10 in the league.  Is that enough of a reason to tank?

 

At this point, I don't care about wins and losses, but rather about how some of the younger players are playing.  I want to see Provorov find his game again.  I want Konecny and Sanheim to be more consistent.  I want Patrick to be more assertive and rise to the task of being a viable second line center.  I want Morin to demonstrate he will be an NHL regular next season.  I would like Lindblom to show something that justifies the hype that accompanied his arrival.  I want Hart to continue to improve.  If those things happen and translate into wins, then so be it.  If not, all the better for our draft position.

 

But I also want them to maximize trade values at the deadline and bring up some kids from the Phantoms.  All UFAs should be traded.  I would also do whatever it takes to trade MacDonald and would be willing retain a good chunk of his salary.  They should be willing to trade Ghost and/or Gudas if the right deals come along (though, I'm not sure I would trade all of MacDonald, Ghost and Gudas).  I would shop Voracek, but that's unlikely to happen at the deadline.

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, briere48 said:

is it too much to flip the pick to san jose for ek? because i know they wont sign him and they will probably need a younger defensemen.

 

I don't see San Jose not signing him. They are projected to have 21 million next year. I see them getting EK signed unless he wants to be somewhere else.

[intheslot]

 Per Meltzer.. and .J J ..
Why I Disagree with 'Lose for Hughes'

Over on the Flyers' official website, broadcaster Jim Jackson has written his latest View from the Boothcolumn. It's a good read, with J.J. weighing in on topics ranging from "Lose for Hughes" to the play of Carter Hart and other young players on the team, the outlook one month ahead of the NHL trade deadline and candidates for NHL callup from the Phantoms over the rest of this season.

I am like-minded with Jim, as well as the Athletic's Charlie O'Connor, when it comes to disagreeing with the "lose for Hughes" argument. There is a difference, as I see it, between being sellers at the deadline -- which I think most of us agree is inevitable (it's already started to some degree) and understandable -- and actively trying to finish with the bottom record in the NHL. 

To me, Flyers fans who beat the "lose for Hughes" drum haven't really thought through the risk vs. reward involved. First and foremost, you have to start with looking at WHY the Flyers' record is what it is this season and then exactly would it would entail for the team to sink back to the bottom and stay there. 

* We'll start with goaltending stability. As mentioned earlier, the lack of goaltending stability, due to injuries and/or subpar performance, has sunk the team's fortunes this season. The fact that seven different goalies have made starts for this team says it all. But as long as Carter Hart is playing on the NHL roster, which scenario would be better for him and the team: a) the 20-year-old continues to consistently give his team a chance to win and provides bonafide hope in preparing for next year with him as a part of an upgraded tandem or b) he struggles after the All-Star break and/or is sent back to the Phantoms? 

* Now let's look at the blueline. A second huge reason for the Flyers' drop from last year's 98-point season (and top-5 pace in the second half) to where they are now is that neither Ivan Provorov nor Shayne Gostisbehere -- the two players MOST counted on for all-around reliability (Provorov) and offensive push (Ghost) -- had had seasons to date that have come anywhere close to the team's expectations or the standards they set for themselves. Wouldn't it be preferable for the team's outlook heading into the offseason if one or both come out after the break and finish strong? 

They'll still need more help, even beyond Travis Sanheim continuing his overall upward trend and Radko Gudas' strong bounceback season. The Flyers need a high-caliber veteran (but not too old of one) who can give them 20+ quality minutes a night against opposing top lines. Provorov's RFA re-sign could prove to be an arduous negotiation for Chuck Fletcher (things went nowhere last summer despite Hextall's efforts to at least get the ball rolling, and agent Mark Gandler is a notoriously tough in his negotiation tactics), but that is a topic for a later date.

For now, suffice it to say the 2018-19 Flyers season probably would have looked a lot different at the bye week if Provorov and Ghost had carried over their play from last season. This time would probably at least be on the playoff bubble and, combined with better goalie play, perhaps even in at least a wildcard spot. At bare minimum, the Flyers 5-on-5 goal differentials would look a hell of a lot better. 

Moving forward the rest of this season and planning for next year, it would be a huge relief to get at least one of those players -- and preferably both -- back atop their games.

* From here, we'll go to the young forwards who were expected to take bigger bites of the apple in 2018-19: third-year right winger Travis Konecny, second-year center Nolan Patrick and still-a-rookie-this-season Oskar Lindblom. All three went varying degrees of offensive droughts this season, all three have recently shown signs of emerging under Scott Gordon as better and bigger-minute players than they were previously. 

I will discuss Konecny and Lindblom in future blogs. I talked about Patrick's comeback of confidence in working through his lengthy offensive drought.

Plain and simple, if Konecny and Patrick have strong offensive second halves and Lindblom consistently emerges as an effective penalty killing winger who can also chip in points while play on the second or third line, the Flyers' forward group suddenly starts to look much deeper and more potent than has all season. It won't have be Giroux, Couturier, JVR, Voracek, Simmonds carrying the entire load or else the team is in danger of a shutout loss or one-goal night. 

* Combined between these homegrown forwards, defensemen Provorov, Sanheim, Gostisbehere, and Robert Hägg (with Sam Morin pushing for an NHL opportunity after the better part of a year-and-a-half lost due to core muscle and then ACL injuries plus Phil Myers getting close to his first NHL recall) plus goaltender Hart, there has been a whole lot of resources spent and long-term NHL hopes pinned on their collective and individual development. 

For the Flyers to finish 30th or 31st in the NHL, it would mean that most or all of the youth influx struggles to find its footing after the break. Given the extent and prolonged stretches during the first half in which young players played with low confidence and effectiveness, the implications of that being a post-break reality, too, are rather unpleasant to consider. 

If these struggles last all year and the recent upswings are a mirage, the implication is that
a) most of the kids aren't ready to be core pieces in next year's planning or b) they may not even be capable of doing so. 

The first scenario would be discouraging and the second scenario would be downright terrifying. Thankfully, I don't think that's the case. I think most of these players are going through all the usual trials and tribulations of the learning curve as they figure out what does and does not work for them. Sometimes, a little step backward and simplifying things until the player gets rolling again makes a big difference going forward. 

It would be great if every development path was a neat-and-tidy upwards arrow. That is rarely the case. However, there's a difference between a staccato path and a somewhat-below-expectations season and an outright disastrous campaign. The latter can a very difficult bounceback for a young player. There's rarely a next-year "magic switch" to flip.

A bit of continued inconsistency and streaky play from the Flyers players who are early in their NHL careers would not be a cause for concern moving forward. That's par for the course. The goal here is realistic progression by the end of the season.

On the flip side, if there's another wave of month-long to six-plus week dry spells for the young top-9 group forwards, it would be a concern. The Flyers don't need the kids to do the primary heavy lifting yet but they do need for Patrick and Lindblom to do significantly better than put up 35-game stretches with production like the latter-day equivalents of the 2006-07 Flyers performances of then-prospects Stefan Ruzicka and Ryan Potulny or that of Andreas Nödl a few years late. If and when defenseman Myers comes up, I'd personally like to see him succeed in Philly whereas someone like Alexandre Picard (people forget how high the Flyers were on him as a prospect ca. 2005 and 2006, especially after he held his own in the Calder Cup playoffs) struggled mightily in the NHL after his Flyers callup and wound up a journeyman depth D.

* Add the sum of these parts. If Hart continues to play well, the defense trends the right way, and the Flyers start showing signs of developing scoring depth irrespective of what happens with Simmonds and/or other moves, the team probably won't finish in the bottom three of the NHL. However, the club this season still buried itself too deep in the first half to be anything other than a lottery team.

Lottery luck will be whatever it will be. The current-day lottery system is designed to discourage tanking. Finish dead last in the regular season and there is a 50.6 percent chance of picking fourth and only an 18.5 percent chance of getting the first selection (16.5 percent to pick second and 14.4 percent to pick third). 

If things work out that the Flyers win the lottery and are able to pick Jack Hughes first or select Kaapo Kakko second, that would be great. It would only add to top end of the farm system with another potential impact player -- nothing is ever a guarantee, but there is certainly a realistic possibility -- and create more flexibility for other moves made from strength rather than weakness. That's especially true with all of the other prospects currently playing below the NHL level, plus the salary cap room the organization currently holds.

If you are eager to see the Flyers sustain the sort of collateral damage the rest of this season that it would take for the club to have an 18.5 percent chance at drafting Hughes (or a 16.5 percent chance at Kakko), that's your prerogative. I think it's foolhardy. That's not a slight on Hughes or Kakko, both of whom are excellent prospects
 

[Cheesesteak]

On 1/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, OccamsRazor said:

 

Depends Kakko could help a lot.

 

Podkolzin is another RW who could take a forwards spot....like Simmer's.

 

Cozens is a nice center to add to the collection.

 

Phillip Broberg is a nice Swedish defenseman but he would be off the board around 5-7 i think.

 

Depends on where they end up i guess. Or Chuck could flip the pick for someone who is closer to helping now.

 

Hard to say yet. 

 

 

Flyers need a sharpshooter, like Briere was...hopefully bigger.  Are there any of those types in the upper draft?

 

If I had to pick a player for the Flyers, I'd go Kakko on just the name alone haha.....Kaaaaapo KAAAkkooooo

[RonJeremy]

It would be great to get a real sniper for a change, it's so frustrating watching our guys shoot wide from 5 feet out all the time, there are times we generate so much action in front, but miss the net or shoot right into the goalies pads. I like Kakko or Poldkozin, a big scoring winger to replace Simmonds. I liked Wahlstrom last year, the Isles drafted him two spots before our pick. We also passed on Bellows for Rubstov a few years before...I hope these guys dont become thorns in our sides for the next ten years.

[mojo1917]

No, losing sucks.

 

play to win.