A Bit Underwhelmed (and Concerned)

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Forgot about the Horton relief.  So how does this work mechanically?  They can’t sign Marner now (and their other FAs) because it would put them over the cap by more than 10%?  So they have to wait until after the start of the season to sign him?

 

 

Something like that.  I remember it from the Pronger days.  Homer and then Hextall never waited to sign a guy I don't think, but they used to have to stow guys in the Minors and hope they'd clear waivers, bringing them up on day 2 in order to utilize Pronger's cap space.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They don't have to wait till after the first game they can do it all at the same time. No waiting needed.

 

Day 1 of the season is what I meant.  I was typing fast.  

Long story short is they can't do it until then. 

[brelic]

47 minutes ago, vis said:

I hear you, but who did you expect them to have a realistic shot at?  Even if they didn’t sign Hayes, I don’t think Duchene or Panarin we’re realistic options.  Who do you think they missed out on?  One player I would have targeted (before Hayes) was Pavelski.  That’s maybe the one player who I wonder about whether the Flyers kicked enough tires on.  Maybe they did and concluded he wanted to stay in the West.  Who knows?  But I’m not really seeing someone I wished they signed that was a realistic target.  

 

Outside of the Subban trade, I’m not sure there is much that could have been available that way.  Maybe the Kadri trade would have been interesting to me instead of Hayes.  I don’t hate Kadri as much as some, though I wonder how he would have done as a #2 here.  

 

I agree that there were a limited amount of options.

 

I think Kadri + Subban makes us MUCH better than Hayes and Niskanen. But maybe there was no deals to be had with the Leafs and Preds - and if there were, we probably wouldn't like what Fletch would give up to acquire them. 

 

I like Pavelski, and would have preferred him to either Kadri or Hayes. 

 

My post was just to say that regardless of what Fletch could or could not have done, what he actually DID do is underwhelming. 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, vis said:

I hear you, but who did you expect them to have a realistic shot at?  Even if they didn’t sign Hayes, I don’t think Duchene or Panarin we’re realistic options.  Who do you think they missed out on?  One player I would have targeted (before Hayes) was Pavelski.  That’s maybe the one player who I wonder about whether the Flyers kicked enough tires on.  Maybe they did and concluded he wanted to stay in the West.  Who knows?  But I’m not really seeing someone I wished they signed that was a realistic target.  

 

Outside of the Subban trade, I’m not sure there is much that could have been available that way.  Maybe the Kadri trade would have been interesting to me instead of Hayes.  I don’t hate Kadri as much as some, though I wonder how he would have done as a #2 here.  

 

If you don't bring in Niskanen, Braun and Hayes, you can afford Panarin.  Actually you can still bring in Braun and afford Panarin easily.  Potentially more importantly, the Rangers don't get him.  

 

Alternatively, maybe you trade for Subban and the Devils don't get him.  

 

Even at this overpriced cost, I still take Hayes over Duchene. Duchene is a more talented scorer, but every team he's on seems to get immediately better as soon as he leaves while whatever team he comes to seems to get better.

 

A big part of why I'm disappointed has to do with the Maple Leafs.  I do not understand how they convinced Johnson and Kapanen to sign for half of what they're worth.  My biggest hope for the off season was making a play for one of them via trade (Hagg and a pick in my ideal scenario).  

 

As it is Justin Williamd and Patrick Marleau are both still out there and either one (I prefer Williams) could slot in well as the 3RW, but if either one is going to keep playing hockey, I doubt the Flyers Cap space will allow for them after they resign Provo and TK and (presumably Laughton).  

Edited July 2, 2019 by King Knut

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I agree that there were a limited amount of options.

 

I think Kadri + Subban makes us MUCH better than Hayes and Niskanen. But maybe there was no deals to be had with the Leafs and Preds - and if there were, we probably wouldn't like what Fletch would give up to acquire them. 

 

I like Pavelski, and would have preferred him to either Kadri or Hayes. 

 

My post was just to say that regardless of what Fletch could or could not have done, what he actually DID do is underwhelming. 

 

 

 

I'm completely with you.  The Hayes deal is going to seriously handcuff this team in a few years.  The best case scenario is Lindblom, Patrick and Myers all have breakout years and Fletcher can't afford them next year.  

 

There still may be a deal to be had with Toronto and / or Tampa.  They both need what Fletcher's got to sell (and he does have to sell some D) What are they going to give him though now that they pretty much don't need him for cap relief... they do need him for Depth on D?  

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, tucson83 said:

st. louis didnt make big splashes and won the cup, i think the fanbase is still living in pre 90s era where we can get every star possible and not getting in this era, that we cant because of the salary cap, it's not about making the flashy signings anymore, it's about making the right ones focusing on cheap depth players that can fit in the cap, if they just make big flashy signings, alot of things can go wrong like losing alot of players and relying on phantom players to fix this team, that could really make it worse since the pressure is on them to step up which is a bad idea.

 

i mean anyone that actually watched this past year's team before the moves were made, relying on the phantom players, no one stepped up, it put pressure on hart which caused him to collapse, which results in more losing. do i think fletch is done? no, i think he will make more moves, he will add more vets in cause the young players cant play yet. im very confident this team will do better, if not then adjustments will be made, no firings probably just more young players going back to phantoms and just adding more vets. a flashy move wont fix it.

 

 

The problem is, Fletcher just paid big splashy bucks for depth players and may not be able to resign the talent he has coming up through the system if they improve even a little.  

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They don't have to wait till after the first game they can do it all at the same time. No waiting needed.

 

Also Tampa is likely to do the same thing with Point after this Callahan news.  

[AJgoal]

24 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

If you don't bring in Niskanen, Braun and Hayes, you can afford Panarin.  Actually you can still bring in Braun and afford Panarin easily.  Potentially more importantly, the Rangers don't get him.  

 

Alternatively, maybe you trade for Subban and the Devils don't get him.  

 

Even at this overpriced cost, I still take Hayes over Duchene. Duchene is a more talented scorer, but every team he's on seems to get immediately better as soon as he leaves while whatever team he comes to seems to get better.

 

A big part of why I'm disappointed has to do with the Maple Leafs.  I do not understand how they convinced Johnson and Kapanen to sign for half of what they're worth.  My biggest hope for the off season was making a play for one of them via trade (Hagg and a pick in my ideal scenario).  

 

As it is Justin Williamd and Patrick Marleau are both still out there and either one (I prefer Williams) could slot in well as the 3RW, but if either one is going to keep playing hockey, I doubt the Flyers Cap space will allow for them after they resign Provo and TK and (presumably Laughton).  

 

2 seconds and scraps for Subban was not a bad price. I'm not sure what you could offer Toronto short of Ghost that would be as attractive as Barrie and Kerfoot. 

 

Frankly, I doubt either of Marleau or Williams is interested in Philly. I think Marleau wants to go back west, and Williams is re-signing in Carolina or retiring. 

 

I really do think Fletcher mismanaged his offseason. He rushed to get everything done and missed out on better opportunities that presented themselves later on. 

 

Regarding LTIR, they don't even have to wait for the season to start. Teams can place a player on LTIR now, it's just that the cap relief they would get is equal only to the amount they're exceeding the cap by at the moment, unlike in the season proper where they can use unused portions later on (I think, at least.).

[mojo1917]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Fletcher just paid big splashy bucks for depth players

which are the depth players ? You mean the pu-pu platter of AHL guys ? that wasn't spashy money. 

 

The only "big splashy" is Hayes. Braun is off the books next year as is Gudas" salary retention, Niskanen the year after. 

Those two aren't long term problems. 

 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

Frankly, I doubt either of Marleau or Williams is interested in Philly. I think Marleau wants to go back west, and Williams is re-signing in Carolina or retiring. 

 

 

I think you're right... I just wish you weren't.  

 

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

Regarding LTIR, they don't even have to wait for the season to start. Teams can place a player on LTIR now, it's just that the cap relief they would get is equal only to the amount they're exceeding the cap by at the moment, unlike in the season proper where they can use unused portions later on (I think, at least.).

 

In the case of both teams, they still need more than Horton or Callahan's salaries to sneak under the cap for opening day.  

 

OR alternatively you could see both teams scrambling over the likes of Andrew MacDonald on opening day.  

 

In Toronto's case, they can maybe fit Marner in, but they'll have to hope someone like Fletcher trades them better D-men on opening day or else they're playing the season with too many Amateurs.

 

Tampa has work to do to sign Point.  RIght now, I expect that Marner and Point are each awaiting the other to make the first move.  Tampa has enough D-men (though they're not all that good) But they are short experience at fwd in the bottom 6 from what I can see.  

 

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

2 seconds and scraps for Subban was not a bad price. I'm not sure what you could offer Toronto short of Ghost that would be as attractive as Barrie and Kerfoot. 

 

Frankly, I doubt either of Marleau or Williams is interested in Philly. I think Marleau wants to go back west, and Williams is re-signing in Carolina or retiring. 

 

I really do think Fletcher mismanaged his offseason. He rushed to get everything done and missed out on better opportunities that presented themselves later on. 

 

Regarding LTIR, they don't even have to wait for the season to start. Teams can place a player on LTIR now, it's just that the cap relief they would get is equal only to the amount they're exceeding the cap by at the moment, unlike in the season proper where they can use unused portions later on (I think, at least.).

 

[King Knut]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

which are the depth players ? You mean the pu-pu platter of AHL guys ? that wasn't spashy money. 

 

The only "big splashy" is Hayes. Braun is off the books next year as is Gudas" salary retention, Niskanen the year after. 

Those two aren't long term problems. 

 

 

Hayes will be a depth player in two years. 

Nisky will cause us RFA problems next year. 

Braun is whatever.  You’re right about that. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

If you don't bring in Niskanen, Braun and Hayes, you can afford Panarin.

 

Panarin didn't want to come to Philly.

[vis]

3 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Something like that.  I remember it from the Pronger days.  Homer and then Hextall never waited to sign a guy I don't think, but they used to have to stow guys in the Minors and hope they'd clear waivers, bringing them up on day 2 in order to utilize Pronger's cap space.  

I think the Flyers were still able to sign guys during the offseason because they stayed below the 10% threshold during the summer.  Here, it sounds like the Leafs may not stay below that 10% threshold given their current cap situation and Marner's likely salary demands.

[vis]

3 hours ago, brelic said:

 

I agree that there were a limited amount of options.

 

I think Kadri + Subban makes us MUCH better than Hayes and Niskanen. But maybe there was no deals to be had with the Leafs and Preds - and if there were, we probably wouldn't like what Fletch would give up to acquire them. 

 

I like Pavelski, and would have preferred him to either Kadri or Hayes. 

 

My post was just to say that regardless of what Fletch could or could not have done, what he actually DID do is underwhelming. 

Gotcha.  I'm saying the players he acquired may have been the best he could have done under the circumstances.

 

I probably would have preferred Kadri and his contract over Hayes and his contract.  Not sure how I feel about taking on Subban's contract, though.  

Edited July 2, 2019 by vis

[King Knut]

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Panarin didn't want to come to Philly.

 

And I didn’t want him to come for as much money as it took to sign him. 

 

That wasn't the point of the discussion. 

The point was they didn’t have the money because of Hayes and Niskanen.  

 

To your point, I think it’s telling that Trouba and Panarin are both reported to not want to come to Philly. 

 

Either something has changed in the organization’s reputation or they are concerned about not getting top minutes.  

 

...or both.  

[vis]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

If you don't bring in Niskanen, Braun and Hayes, you can afford Panarin.  Actually you can still bring in Braun and afford Panarin easily.  Potentially more importantly, the Rangers don't get him.  

I don't think Panarin had interest in coming here.  I think it was assumed that either he and Bob were going to Florida or Panarin was going to NY.

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Alternatively, maybe you trade for Subban and the Devils don't get him.  

I'm a little torn here.  Subban's contract is really rough.  Not sure they would have been able to fit him long term.  I do like Niskanen's veteran presence, but they paid for him looks kinda rough in light of the Subban deal.  Though, I suppose Poile was just happy to rid himself of Subban's cap hit entirely and was willing to accept very little in return. 

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Even at this overpriced cost, I still take Hayes over Duchene. Duchene is a more talented scorer, but every team he's on seems to get immediately better as soon as he leaves while whatever team he comes to seems to get better.

Duchene had a pretty good playoff, which surprised me.  I think Duchene would have raised some interesting questions about whether he would play on a top line with Giroux instead of Couturier.  Regardless, Hayes is the more rounded player.

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

A big part of why I'm disappointed has to do with the Maple Leafs.  I do not understand how they convinced Johnson and Kapanen to sign for half of what they're worth.  My biggest hope for the off season was making a play for one of them via trade (Hagg and a pick in my ideal scenario). 

Yeah, kind of mystifying, but kudos to Dubas.  He's finding a way to get things done.

 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

As it is Justin Williamd and Patrick Marleau are both still out there and either one (I prefer Williams) could slot in well as the 3RW, but if either one is going to keep playing hockey, I doubt the Flyers Cap space will allow for them after they resign Provo and TK and (presumably Laughton).  

Would absolutely love Justin Williams on this team.  Wanted him last time he was UFA.  He'd be a perfect 3RW.  

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

I really do think Fletcher mismanaged his offseason. He rushed to get everything done and missed out on better opportunities that presented themselves later on. 

 

This.  100% agree.

 

I can't wait for Fletcher to get fired!

[CoachX]

relax

[Podein25]

20 minutes ago, CoachX said:

relax

 

Easy for you to say, you're standing at the top of the escalator!

[AJgoal]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Gotcha.  I'm saying the players he acquired may have been the best he could have done under the circumstances.

 

I probably would have preferred Kadri and his contract over Hayes and his contract.  Not sure how I feel about taking on Subban's contract, though.  

 

That's fair. It's certainly reasonable to believe he's starting a decline, or that he will before the contract is up in three years.

 

That said, if the cost to acquire Kadri was reasonable (doubtful, I assume it would have included Ghost or Sanheim, which I would not do), I would prefer to have rolled the dice on Gudas, Subban and Kadri for three years for a slightly lower cap cost than Hayes, Niskanen, and Braun. But I can certainly understand those who would not.

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

That's fair. It's certainly reasonable to believe he's starting a decline, or that he will before the contract is up in three years.

 

That said, if the cost to acquire Kadri was reasonable (doubtful, I assume it would have included Ghost or Sanheim, which I would not do), I would prefer to have rolled the dice on Gudas, Subban and Kadri for three years for a slightly lower cap cost than Hayes, Niskanen, and Braun. But I can certainly understand those who would not.

When I take into account the amount of dumb penalties that Kadri and Gudas would cause my team to have to kill off, I would not rather have them than any of the 3 we got.

[Podein25]

13 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

That's fair. It's certainly reasonable to believe he's starting a decline, or that he will before the contract is up in three years.

 

That said, if the cost to acquire Kadri was reasonable (doubtful, I assume it would have included Ghost or Sanheim, which I would not do), I would prefer to have rolled the dice on Gudas, Subban and Kadri for three years for a slightly lower cap cost than Hayes, Niskanen, and Braun. But I can certainly understand those who would not.

 

You're so agreeable. Plus, you know your hockey. Are you sure you're not Canadian?

 

You might be and just don't know it. Perhaps your mother knew a milk man from Markham?

[AJgoal]

10 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

You're so agreeable. Plus, you know your hockey. Are you sure you're not Canadian?

 

You might be and just don't know it. Perhaps your mother knew a milk man from Markham?

 

My mother is from Niagara Falls, and I spent a lot of time up there when I was a kid. So, pretty close to being Canadian.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

relax

 

It's hard to relax when just about everything Fletcher has done is a disappointment.  I'm usually fairly optimistic compared to other Flyer fans but the moves he's made just don't make any sense to me.  I'm just not seeing the improvement in the team. At least Hextall had a plan and was moving the team in the right direction.

[LegionOfDoom]

The hard optics to see in all this is that unlike us, Fletcher was most likely up against a wall, somewhat(his view); and prejudice toward action was the mantra with Comcast execs. Fletcher had to act quickly. When in the corporate business jungle, when your put in a one-way mirrored room and expected to turn things around, you have to react, especially if part of the global projected movement is to show bias for action, Fletcher had to make moves and bring in changes, that the Team Operations execs optics could show, that a bias for action was accomplished.

 

It's like when all of a sudden you have a group of people coming over from a gathering, to your house due to the place they were at could no longer continue there. You have the people over and all of a sudden your fridge is empty, certain lawn chairs are broken and now you have to take action, a bias for action has to be accomplished or everyone coming over will be looking at you or internally thinking, should they have made the move to your place.

You act quickly and go to local convenience store and spend more on food and lawn chairs than you would have if you planned this event ahead of time.

 

 

In saying this, I am not making excuses as of yet, but Fletcher was in a way up against a corporate wall for bias of action. Had he waited til Free Agency and tried to secure a second line center and help on D, things would of not been like they are now => Over budget and holes plugged in.

 

I put this more on Team Comcast and Team President in blowing things up and not taking a better approach in sorting this mess out.

Whether they agreed with Hextall's ideology and prejudice for action/holding pattern, they should of waited till after they were mathematically eliminated and spent the remaining weeks lining up their ducks.

 

Fletcher came in, in a bad situation, cleaning up the mess and updating and patching things up.

He had the unenviable task of fixing the land of the Misfits and shaping this up to move forward.

He has admirably accomplished these goals. Setting up a culture change, adding players to play the system they are going out and try to win with.  

The Subbans', Duchenes' and Panarins' et all, were not going to accomplish the change.

The players he chose are players that they feel will play the type of identity they are trying to accomplish.

Unfortunately the Millennial Market we are in and the ridiculous Salary Cap structure we are saddled with, cripple this league and cause silliness to ensue.

 

I don't like the fact that we are giving MORE than we are taking in these trades, whether it's in Players', Salaries/Terms, and favors.

But again we were not given advance notice in these changes, and you always pay more than you would of, if you'd not have to visit the  convenience store at the last minute.

 

I give Fletcher a slight pass for this summer due to prejudice for action and the circumstances they cause.

This coming season and the ensuing summer is where you will find people, stone-sharpening their pitchforks and wrapping up their torches to have an ol' fashion linchin' if things turn to worse, with his actions at that point.....yeeee hawww, suey...suey...