Game 32: Devils at Flyers; 3/23/21 @ 7, NBCSP

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Just this season we've seen them combine for clutch goals that won games for the Flyers.

 

They have one GWG each this year. That's two "clutch goals that won games for the Flyers" this season.

 

Two.

 

There are 109 players in the league with more GWG this season.

  

12 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Giroux is about 0.8pts/game and JV is about 0.9, which isn't too bad.

 

It's "not too bad" from a points perspective, but they are the 31st and 33rd highest paid players in the league. Voracek is 51st in PPG and Giroux is 68th.

 

In terms of goal scoring, Sam Reinhart in Buffalo has one fewer goal than the VeeGees combined.

 

5 goals in 28 games for Voracek. 7 goals in 29 games for Giroux.

 

Konecny is having a "disappointing" year with 7 goals - in fewer games played.

 

There are 131 players in the league with more goals than Giroux. There are two hundred with more than Voracek.

 

And while we're talking about goals, the two of them - on PP1 - have a combined one power play goal this season. That's not on "coaching" and doesn't scream "clutch" to me.

 

These guys are paid to be the straws that stir the drink in Philly and they simply aren't those guys. Good players. Not dominant and just don't make the impact that the team needs to be more than the bubble playoff team they've been for nine years now.

 

They built the team around two guys that average a combined 42 goals a year over their careers - 24 for Giroux and 18 for Voracek.

 

Last year the Cup winning Bolts had five guys with 25 or more goals.

 

The last time Giroux had more than 25 was in 2017-18. Voracek has never scored 25 in a season. His career high is 23 - in 2013-14.

 

It's just not enough firepower. I wish it weren't so.

[OccamsRazor]

Were the Flyers went wrong is they didn't cut bait with these two before they are were they are now like they did with Scott Hartnell and Wayne Simmonds.

 

Those two once it has become apparent they were on their clear down swings of their careers were shown the door. Rightfully so. It sucked but had to be done.

 

The same should have happened to Giroux and Jake but no they were kept beyond their good till this date was marked and well now they are just spoiling with no end in site...

[GratefulFlyers]

@radoran You should've read my mind...(!)...I didn't necessarily mean GWers only that their combined play has carried the team to wins this season. My eye test tells me they're the least of the problems. Their Pts/G reflects that I believe.

 

Can I think of better players who make less? Sure. So what. Part of Giroux and Voracek's value to the Flyers this year especially is that besides Couturier (and JVR for some strange reason) they're the only skaters playing the same way every night. I know what kind of effort, execution 28 and 93 will bring. The rest, with few exceptions is a big question mark.

 

I'm not saying they're immune to whatever's plaguing the team. But it's something new. Probably it's this Covid crap. Something made about 20 guys forget how to play hockey, which, let's face it is not that complicated to begin with. !

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

You should've read my mind...(!)...I didn't necessarily mean GWers only that their combined play has carried the team to wins this season.

 

Sure, but two game winners and one power play goal aren't blowing my doors off after ~30 games.

 

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I know what kind of effort, execution 28 and 93 will bring.

 

So do I, and it's simply not good enough.

 

I've likened them before to the Sedin twins (and not just because of hair color) - good, productive, players who were the foundation of a Canucks team that made one Cup Final in 17 years, six first round exits, four second rounds, and missed the playoffs six times.

 

Unfortunately, what we see is what we have with 28 and 93.

[MaineFlyFan]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

Voracek has never scored 25 in a season. His career high is 23 - in 2013-14.

That can't be right?!?.... my god. And HOW much do we pay him a year!?

[radoran]

1 minute ago, MaineFlyFan said:

That can't be right?!?.... my god. And HOW much do we pay him a year!?

 

So, I'm a little disingenuous as he did have 22 in 48 in the lockout shortened season which projects out to 37.5. If you're into that sort of thing.

 

That was the season before he scored 23.

 

Since then it was 22-11 (in 73)-20-20-20-12 (in 69)

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/voracja01.html

 

He averages 18 goals a season for his career - 212 goals in 943 games = 18.4 goals per 82 games played.

 

The other answer is $8.25M per season for the next three years. Signed after his 81 points in 82 games season a year before his contract was up.

 

and since then he was 55 points in 15-16, 61, 85, 66, 56.

 

Career-wise he's a .76 PPG player so ~60 points/season. Again, not bad but that's (this season) in the Nugent-Hopkins or Hertl range, both of whom make more than $2M less than Jake. #lessthanjake

 

[CoachX]

21 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They have one GWG each this year. That's two "clutch goals that won games for the Flyers" this season.

 

Two.

 

There are 109 players in the league with more GWG this season.

  

 

It's "not too bad" from a points perspective, but they are the 31st and 33rd highest paid players in the league. Voracek is 51st in PPG and Giroux is 68th.

 

In terms of goal scoring, Sam Reinhart in Buffalo has one fewer goal than the VeeGees combined.

 

5 goals in 28 games for Voracek. 7 goals in 29 games for Giroux.

 

Konecny is having a "disappointing" year with 7 goals - in fewer games played.

 

There are 131 players in the league with more goals than Giroux. There are two hundred with more than Voracek.

 

And while we're talking about goals, the two of them - on PP1 - have a combined one power play goal this season. That's not on "coaching" and doesn't scream "clutch" to me.

 

These guys are paid to be the straws that stir the drink in Philly and they simply aren't those guys. Good players. Not dominant and just don't make the impact that the team needs to be more than the bubble playoff team they've been for nine years now.

 

They built the team around two guys that average a combined 42 goals a year over their careers - 24 for Giroux and 18 for Voracek.

 

Last year the Cup winning Bolts had five guys with 25 or more goals.

 

The last time Giroux had more than 25 was in 2017-18. Voracek has never scored 25 in a season. His career high is 23 - in 2013-14.

 

It's just not enough firepower. I wish it weren't so.

Mic drop

[CoachX]

21 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Were the Flyers went wrong is they didn't cut bait with these two before they are were they are now like they did with Scott Hartnell and Wayne Simmonds.

Now we have to listen to him analyze....

 

I prefer to watch him play. For reasons I can't explain, I always ended up happy when he did

[ruxpin]

21 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They have one GWG each this year. That's two "clutch goals that won games for the Flyers" this season.

 

Two.

 

There are 109 players in the league with more GWG this season.

  

 

It's "not too bad" from a points perspective, but they are the 31st and 33rd highest paid players in the league. Voracek is 51st in PPG and Giroux is 68th.

 

In terms of goal scoring, Sam Reinhart in Buffalo has one fewer goal than the VeeGees combined.

 

5 goals in 28 games for Voracek. 7 goals in 29 games for Giroux.

 

Konecny is having a "disappointing" year with 7 goals - in fewer games played.

 

There are 131 players in the league with more goals than Giroux. There are two hundred with more than Voracek.

 

And while we're talking about goals, the two of them - on PP1 - have a combined one power play goal this season. That's not on "coaching" and doesn't scream "clutch" to me.

 

These guys are paid to be the straws that stir the drink in Philly and they simply aren't those guys. Good players. Not dominant and just don't make the impact that the team needs to be more than the bubble playoff team they've been for nine years now.

 

They built the team around two guys that average a combined 42 goals a year over their careers - 24 for Giroux and 18 for Voracek.

 

Last year the Cup winning Bolts had five guys with 25 or more goals.

 

The last time Giroux had more than 25 was in 2017-18. Voracek has never scored 25 in a season. His career high is 23 - in 2013-14.

 

It's just not enough firepower. I wish it weren't so.

 

BOOM!

[CoachX]

20 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I know what kind of effort, execution 28 and 93 will bring.

well you are the only person who seems to know. The rest of us, and THEM, have no friggin clue

[CoachX]

17 hours ago, radoran said:

 

So, I'm a little disingenuous as he did have 22 in 48 in the lockout shortened season which projects out to 37.5. If you're into that sort of thing.

 

That was the season before he scored 23.

 

Since then it was 22-11 (in 73)-20-20-20-12 (in 69)

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/voracja01.html

 

He averages 18 goals a season for his career - 212 goals in 943 games = 18.4 goals per 82 games played.

 

The other answer is $8.25M per season for the next three years. Signed after his 81 points in 82 games season a year before his contract was up.

 

and since then he was 55 points in 15-16, 61, 85, 66, 56.

 

Career-wise he's a .76 PPG player so ~60 points/season. Again, not bad but that's (this season) in the Nugent-Hopkins or Hertl range, both of whom make more than $2M less than Jake. #lessthanjake

 

so, he got paid and his production dropped off?

 

Hmmm, imagine that.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

so, he got paid and his production dropped off?

 

Hmmm, imagine that.

 

He's had a standout season or two during this contract but the issue is consistentcy - there isn't any.

 

It's like Giroux's points going 86-74-67-58-102-85-53 (in 69)...

 

I don't entirely buy the idea that all guys coast once they get paid. No doubt some do.

[OccamsRazor]

20 hours ago, radoran said:

execution 28 and 93

 

 

I'm in favor of it...high noon.

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

He's had a standout season or two during this contract but the issue is consistentcy - there isn't any.

 

It's like Giroux's points going 86-74-67-58-102-85-53 (in 69)...

 

I don't entirely buy the idea that all guys coast once they get paid. No doubt some do.

 

I mean, those are very good point totals... He's in pretty great company with those numbers.

 

A lot of talk seems to be a question of leadership. I feel like that's just a red herring honestly. None of us knows what kind of actual leaders these vets are. For all we know, maybe they're saying all the right things at all the right times. Or maybe they say some of the right things some of the time (seems the most likely). At the end of the day though, I've said before how I really don't think we need to bring concepts like leadership or drive into the equation. We just can't get an accurate read of stuff like that from any couch. 

 

What we can very easily see from our respective couches is that this team is not at all up to snuff. They're not good enough. Period. They don't have the skill level needed to be contenders in the NHL. We don't need to add extenuating factors.

 

There's no way these guys have decided to coast and stop caring for the past 5-6 years or whatever window makes sense to anyone here. Morale is no doubt very low right now, so it makes sense they might be feeling that way now, but there's just no way in my mind that these guys have been in a zero f***s state for ten years, certainly not when a much more plausible and evident reason is available to us -- they suck.

 

Well, they don't suck. They're just not good enough to win at the NHL level. That's really the easiest most likely reason for all of this. 

 

I know that hurts to say. Because that's essentially admitting this team's biggest need is a very significant reworking of the roster from the top down, but that's where I believe we're at. While tweaks could maybe help somewhat (getting a dman or two for instance), I highly doubt anything like that will be enough. What we need is more talented and skilled players than what this team currently has available. Until we get that, I really don't think this team will take any big step forward.

[pilldoc]

On 3/25/2021 at 11:18 AM, radoran said:

 

They have one GWG each this year. That's two "clutch goals that won games for the Flyers" this season.

 

Two.

 

There are 109 players in the league with more GWG this season.

  

 

It's "not too bad" from a points perspective, but they are the 31st and 33rd highest paid players in the league. Voracek is 51st in PPG and Giroux is 68th.

 

In terms of goal scoring, Sam Reinhart in Buffalo has one fewer goal than the VeeGees combined.

 

5 goals in 28 games for Voracek. 7 goals in 29 games for Giroux.

 

Konecny is having a "disappointing" year with 7 goals - in fewer games played.

 

There are 131 players in the league with more goals than Giroux. There are two hundred with more than Voracek.

 

And while we're talking about goals, the two of them - on PP1 - have a combined one power play goal this season. That's not on "coaching" and doesn't scream "clutch" to me.

 

These guys are paid to be the straws that stir the drink in Philly and they simply aren't those guys. Good players. Not dominant and just don't make the impact that the team needs to be more than the bubble playoff team they've been for nine years now.

 

They built the team around two guys that average a combined 42 goals a year over their careers - 24 for Giroux and 18 for Voracek.

 

Last year the Cup winning Bolts had five guys with 25 or more goals.

 

The last time Giroux had more than 25 was in 2017-18. Voracek has never scored 25 in a season. His career high is 23 - in 2013-14.

 

It's just not enough firepower. I wish it weren't so.

 

Bingo!  ...Post of the day! ........

[radoran]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

I mean, those are very good point totals... He's in pretty great company with those numbers.

 

he is and he isn't, really. Giroux has a 42-point gap between his top and bottom point full seasons over that time. Over the same period:

 

Crosby: 104-84-85-89-89-100-47 (in 41)

Malkin: 72-70-58 (in 57)-72-98-72-74

 

Ovechkin: 79-81-71-69-87-89-67 (in 68)
- keep in mind that OV had 4 50-goal seasons and a 49 and 48 in that span...

Backstrom: 79-78-70-86-71-74-54 (in 61)
 

Having guys consistently in the 70s and 80s with occasional jumps is, for me, more effective than a guy who can top out at 102 but also bottoms out at 58.

 

Those pairs have won three Cups between them over the same period where the Flyers have won one playoff round...

  

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

Well, they don't suck. They're just not good enough to win at the NHL level. That's really the easiest most likely reason for all of this. 

 

I've been saying for years that the VeeGees are good but they're not good enough to actually compete with the top guys on other teams. The results tend to bear that out.

 

They're the go-to guys on a mediocre squad and can put up gaudy numbers in that context.

 

See: Sedin, Twins.

Edited March 26, 2021 by radoran

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I mean, those are very good point totals... He's in pretty great company with those numbers.

 

A lot of talk seems to be a question of leadership. I feel like that's just a red herring honestly. None of us knows what kind of actual leaders these vets are. For all we know, maybe they're saying all the right things at all the right times. Or maybe they say some of the right things some of the time (seems the most likely). At the end of the day though, I've said before how I really don't think we need to bring concepts like leadership or drive into the equation. We just can't get an accurate read of stuff like that from any couch. 

 

What we can very easily see from our respective couches is that this team is not at all up to snuff. They're not good enough. Period. They don't have the skill level needed to be contenders in the NHL. We don't need to add extenuating factors.

 

There's no way these guys have decided to coast and stop caring for the past 5-6 years or whatever window makes sense to anyone here. Morale is no doubt very low right now, so it makes sense they might be feeling that way now, but there's just no way in my mind that these guys have been in a zero f***s state for ten years, certainly not when a much more plausible and evident reason is available to us -- they suck.

 

Well, they don't suck. They're just not good enough to win at the NHL level. That's really the easiest most likely reason for all of this. 

 

I know that hurts to say. Because that's essentially admitting this team's biggest need is a very significant reworking of the roster from the top down, but that's where I believe we're at. While tweaks could maybe help somewhat (getting a dman or two for instance), I highly doubt anything like that will be enough. What we need is more talented and skilled players than what this team currently has available. Until we get that, I really don't think this team will take any big step forward.

How can they be "not good enough", but not "suck"?

 

This same squad, minus 1 d-man, but add a Lindblom and Patrick, were good enough last season. Why this then?

[GratefulFlyers]

  

41 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I've been saying for years that the VeeGees are good but they're not good enough to actually compete with the top guys on other teams. The results tend to bear that out.

You seriously don't think Giroux can compete with the best players in the league? No offense but that's crazy-talk.

 

[CoachX]

13 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

  

You seriously don't think Giroux can compete with the best players in the league? No offense but that's crazy-talk.

 

He's not even the best player on his own team

[radoran]

16 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

You seriously don't think Giroux can compete with the best players in the league? No offense but that's crazy-talk.

 

No offense taken. My post was that Giroux & Voracek do not compare favorably to the high power duos on many other squads. Like ones that have won Stanley Cups over the past eight years and not just one measly round of playoffs.

 

The results speak for themselves.

 

He's been top ten in points twice since 13-14. Top 20 (19 & 20) twice. In seven years.

 

He's had a hard time breaking into the top 12 on Team Canada.

 

He's a good player. He's just not the superstar that the Flyers' organization* would have one believe.

 

 

* term used loosely

[GratefulFlyers]

Oh I got you now. Ya I can't argue with that. He's certainly not a generational talent or a big-time NHL star. But I'd say he's one of the best complements to a team you're going to find around the league. Voracek too, with an asterisk lol.

 

Not that it matters but making Giroux captain did him no favors.

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

he is and he isn't, really. Giroux has a 42-point gap between his top and bottom point full seasons over that time. Over the same period:

 

I feel like this is a case where we're essentially just agreeing on pretty much everything. 

 

Of the guys you mentioned, Giroux is just not as good as most of them (imho). I'd say he compares well enough to a guy like Backstrom, but the rest are definitely all better players than Giroux, and Voracek is not in that same tier at all. 

 

It's worth noting Backstrom has had the best sniper of this generation on his wing (and vice versa). It's entirely possible we'd have a cup too if Giroux were riding shotgun to Ovechkin. There's a decent argument to be made that the lack of an elite sniper is one of the biggest challenges we've had for a long time now.

 

But all of that is just imaginary. The bottom line again is that this roster just doesn't have the necessary skill to be contenders, which I think is also your point. I didn't always think this way. I'll admit that for a good time (say 2011-2017 or so), I was willing to give the team time to build around this core and figure things out. 

 

Two GMs and some number of coaches have now tried and failed. To me, that suggests the problem is more fundamentally related to the talent they've had to work with. They don't have enough skill.

 

@CoachX 

To your point, they weren't good enough last year either. They made the playoffs well enough. Then they proceeded to ride a tight series against the 24th overall team, who would never have come close to even being there in a normal year, and eventually got absolutely obliterated by a team that was itself a solid tier behind the eventual winners. 

 

Bottom line, they weren't good enough last year. They weren't good enough the year before either. This is a bubble team at best, which is exactly what they've been for virtually all of the last decade. This year is no different.

 

Could this team make the playoffs this year? Yeah, for sure. Half the league makes the playoffs in the end. Can this team win a round? Er... probably not. Can they win two or more rounds? Not without some absurd amount of luck. They're just not good enough.

Edited March 26, 2021 by elmatus

[radoran]

22 minutes ago, elmatus said:

The bottom line again is that this roster just doesn't have the necessary skill to be contenders, which I think is also your point. I didn't always think this way. I'll admit that for a good time (say 2011-2017 or so), I was willing to give the team time to build around this core and figure things out. 

 

Please don't think I'm "arguing" as much as "discussing." A good discussion has a nice back and forth with folks agreeing and disagreeing along the way.

 

I was on board for years, with (steadily increasing) reservations but willing to let it play out. I will never forgive Homer for not re-loading the Jagr gun that season he went on his Quixotic Quest for Parise and Suter. That was the chance, IMO.

 

Now, I think it's just played out.

 

I'm not at all happy about it. I'm more pissed - in the anger sense, not the British one, although... They have taken me on a journey from partial season ticket holder to someone who will check in on the game during commercial breaks in other shows.

 

Heckuvajob, Homer.

 

IMO, they oh, so desperately wanted to be the smartest guys in the room that took a guy drafted in the 20s in the 1st round and have him be "their guy" - "best player in the world"* - that made them look like geniuses.

 

Instead they look like dopes presiding over the least successful stretch of hockey in franchise history.

 

 

* I am aware that even Lavvy didn't really believe this when he said it.

Edited March 26, 2021 by radoran

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Please don't think I'm "arguing" as much as "discussing." A good discussion has a nice back and forth with folks agreeing and disagreeing along the way.

 

Lol, that's so quaint. You might as well be talking about the 13th century.

 

GFY!

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Please don't think I'm "arguing" as much as "discussing." A good discussion has a nice back and forth with folks agreeing and disagreeing along the way.

 

I was on board for years, with (steadily increasing) reservations but willing to let it play out. I will never forgive Homer for not re-loading the Jagr gun that season he went on his Quixotic Quest for Parise and Suter. That was the chance, IMO.

 

Now, I think it's just played out.

 

I'm not at all happy about it. I'm more pissed - in the anger sense, not the British one, although... They have taken me on a journey from partial season ticket holder to someone who will check in on the game during commercial breaks in other shows.

 

Heckuvajob, Homer.

 

IMO, they oh, so desperately wanted to be the smartest guys in the room that took a guy drafted in the 20s in the 1st round and have him be "their guy" - "best player in the world"* - that made them look like geniuses.

 

Instead they look like dopes presiding over the least successful stretch of hockey in franchise history.

 

 

* I am aware that even Lavvy didn't really believe this when he said it.

 

our forwards always passing all over the place which puts a ton a of pressure on the d core which causes more odd man rushes and breakouts on us, if they just start shooting from every angle, it takes alot of pressure off the d. for some odd reason they dont want to just put the puck on the net, that's why im saying we need snipers/shooting type of mentality players.

 

i mean the way i see the hurricanes play, they always shoot the puck all over place which puts pressure on the opponents  which causes less odd man rushes, breakouts, that's why you see average goalies play so well with carolina is because there's less pressure on them from how they play.