What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[mojo1917]

13 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The covid thing happened before the March meltdown, didn't  it?

Yes, directly.

[pilldoc]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Same with the Caps who post-poned some games because they acted like assholes early in the season, but didn't have guys actually contract the virus- to my knowledge.

 

Samsonov actually tested positive for Covid and was quite ill.

[CoachX]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Yes, directly.

I don't see covid having anything to do with what a we are seeing. At least not as far as it has physically had an impact on players

[Podein25]

13 hours ago, Fizz said:

Not at all, Just think he is the kind of coach this team needs at this point and time, and he is available. Heck he might tell thr Flyers to take a flying leap but IMO he is a better coach than AV.

 

I don't believe you Fizz, or should I just call you Mike?

[mojo1917]

42 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I don't see covid having anything to do with what a we are seeing. At least not as far as it has physically had an impact on players

 

That's interesting, I don't see how it couldn't have effected the players.

Over the previous 2 pages I've explained why i think that in more detail. 

 

The tl:dr is there isn't time away from the rink to get the bad juju out, nor practice time available to fix issues. The bad habits compound and get exploited by teams creating a downward spiral into sucksville.

 

[CoachX]

i get your point that you think it has an impact on their preparation and execution. I don't agree. But the specific impact on their physical effort, nah, I don't see it

 

 

[FD19372]

12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

That's interesting, I don't see how it couldn't have effected the players.

Over the previous 2 pages I've explained why i think that in more detail. 

 

The tl:dr is there isn't time away from the rink to get the bad juju out, nor practice time available to fix issues. The bad habits compound and get exploited by teams creating a downward spiral into sucksville.

 

Here's why I don't buy it. Why wouldn't it be affecting every other team in the league? I know we're not in last year's bubble. To me,  it becomes a matter of questions like..Was the organization being responsible?  Were the players being responsible, and following CDC guidelines? Were they doing things like going to crowded bars, or other places? I think it could be an issue, but certainly is not the reason for the poor play, they just lack the necessary experience, skill and poise to be NHLers..in large majority, right now. Every other team could use COVID as an excuse. Why should this team? To me, and I know I'm being a hardass but...if they can't discipline themselves to be professionals when they're not playing hockey, (and in their off season conditioning regiment), why should I trust them on my hockey team? I know they're are many kids on this team, but they're WELL PAID kids.

Edited April 2, 2021 by FD19372

[Digityman]

2 hours ago, otto12 said:

Been watching pro hockey for more than 70 years. Learned that teams have personalities. Some respond to adversity, some don't.

 

As much as I would miss the season I was hoping for a cancellation. Had a gut feeling that covid-19 was a killer for the flyers. Missing a top pair defenseman, short training camp and a lack of strong leadership, they weren't a contender.

 

Still, I would not use this season to evaluate who goes and who stays. Use the time to prepare for the off season and expansion. Write this season off.

 

Good post.  We are on the same page.  I wouldn't mind losing one of JVR/Jake to Settle.  Get a #2 dman in the off season and reset for next year.  Then lets see what tweaks they need to make.    My guess is only a few here and there.  There are some good players getting ready to come up.  That influx of youth should really help.

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, Digityman said:

 

Good post.  We are on the same page.  I wouldn't mind losing one of JVR/Jake to Settle.  Get a #2 dman in the off season and reset for next year.  Then lets see what tweaks they need to make.    My guess is only a few here and there.  There are some good players getting ready to come up.  That influx of youth should really help.

If they're in anything but complete sell mode, I'll be p*ssed. If they try to make some false narrative, and compare this to a two years ago St. Louis Blues situation, I'll be p*ssed. The fact is, the leadership group isn't good enough on the ice, and the rookies aren't progressing. That's it, period. Trying to put a pretty bow on it, doesn't make this look more appealing. It's a complete mess, and an organizational FAILURE. Cheers.

[Digityman]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I don't see covid having anything to do with what a we are seeing

 

1. It shorted the preseason to nearly nothing.  
2. Covid effected the schedule and led to the most grueling month in Flyers history.  

Those are two direct, irrefutable correlations.  You said "anything" so I'm just pointing out two facts against that argument. 

Now, if you said something like "I don't see covid having much to do with what we are seeing.... "

I know, I know, semantics.  But sometimes it matters.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't understand the point you're trying to make, and feel as though I didn't explain mine well  enough for you to grasp mine. 

 

I don't understand yours. EVERYONE IS DEALING WITH THIS.

 

WHEN DO WE STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THIS GODDAMN TEAM??

 

My apologies not shouting at you. Just tired of this sh it.

 

Just blow it up and get this rebuild going. Two years away from being two years.

[Digityman]

Just now, FD19372 said:

If they're in anything but complete sell mode, I'll be p*ssed. If they try to make some false narrative, and compare this to a two years ago St. Louis Blues situation, I'll be p*ssed. The fact is, the leadership group isn't good enough on the ice, and the rookies aren't progressing. That's it, period. Trying to put a pretty bow on it, doesn't make this look more appealing. It's a complete mess, and an organizational FAILURE. Cheers.

 

The only way I'm with you on this is if there is a legit known factual problem within the team.  Player issues.  Then, I'd be okay with cutting out the infection.  

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, Digityman said:

 

The only way I'm with you on this is if there is a legit known factual problem within the team.  Player issues.  Then, I'd be okay with cutting out the infection.  

At this point...you look for the infection, until it's gone. If you make an educated guess, and it's a mistake, so be it. NO ONE should be feeling safe from being moved, on this team. So beyond tired of my belief, that this team has been and continues to be, Club Med Philadelphia.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

The covid thing happened before the March meltdown, didn't  it?

 

I think it happened sometime in 2012.

 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Flyers failed to build a team around him and Jake

 

I wasn't that they just failed to build around them they actually did the problem was keeping them because the guys they drafted to build around them by the time they would be ready well Giroux and Jake would be old and useless like now...so they should have went ahead and move them too for those reasons....so they wouldn't be stuck with them...like now.

 

The price for trying to be competitive while instead of stripping it all down and rebuilding it.

 

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[elmatus]

I'm late to the party with this one and probably going to end up just repeating a bunch of peeps, but whatever. Lots of good convo in here. Feels like a lot of folks saying largely the same thing but shouting past each other at times. 

 

What's wrong with this team?

 

Well, ten years ago it was decided that Giroux was the kind of guy a team could be built around. We had a GM who opted to build via the draft and developing players, and who did whatever he could to not fully tank. Hexy clearly wanted to have a team that remained competent enough to at least make the playoffs, all while hoping he could develop key young players to build around Giroux. Voracek showed some promise early, so the thinking was maybe Giroux and Voracek could be a one-two punch in this case.

 

This proved to be wrong. Hexy and the brass clearly overvalued Giroux and Voracek. They're good players. They're above average in terms of production for sure. Giroux especially is one of the most productive players this franchise has ever had. BUT, it turned out he's not the elite level guy Hexy hoped he would be, and building around him proved to not be good enough.

 

Similarly, the young players we managed to get as a bubble team over ten years really haven't been slam dunk successes. IMO, it's hard to fault Hexy for this. If you're looking for elite talent, anything outside the top five is a crap shoot, and beyond top ten is basically a question of winning some lottery. It's worth noting Giroux was one such success story though. He's not franchise-level elite, but he definitely proved to be a fantastic player given his draft placement. Ghost came around like a fireball, and then faded away just as quickly. 

 

Couturier is another pro for sure. In my mind, he has developed into pretty much exactly what he was expected to, which is a very good two-way player. I don't think he's productive enough to be that franchise level guy to build around either, but he's got a lot of the right tools and is a great asset to any team. The fact he's really out best player right now though is not a great thing. If we want to contend, we need someone better than him leading the charge, and we don't have that player.

 

Hakstol was an idiot coach, and the team was saddled with him for way too long. For some reason that baffles me completely, Hexy chose to stand by his man to the bitter end. Commendable I guess, but it was a ridiculous choice and certainly didn't help things.

 

Is it all bad? No. Provorov is still a very good defender who likely needs some guidance to get back on track. Some of the kids have shown inconsistent flashes, including TK and Farabee. My guess is both of them are mid-six guys who can pinch up if needed, but that's fine. We need guys like that.

 

We've been a bubble team forever, and have gotten horrible luck with nabbing the worst 2nd overall pick of the past decade. This team desperately needs a proper rebuild with some very high potential players to actually build around, rather than a guy in Giroux who has really done the best he could, but who probably never should have been that guy.

 

What should be done about it?

 

Others have said it, but the team should be very much on the market. This season is a write off. There is no way at all this roster can be contenders as assembled. Don't waste time getting 30 some veteran dmen or whatever. Just call it done, and move on. Every player should be available for the right price. I would place very high prices on guys like Couts, Hart, and Provo, and I probably wouldn't actively shop any of them. I likely wouldn't shop Farabee and TK either, but I would at least take the call to see what's on offer.

 

Giroux should be traded in the off season. It's tricky but doable. I'm sure the guy would like to win a cup before he retires, and he's likely got a couple more seasons of good hockey left in him. Find a contender, get him to waive his NMC, and get as much as possible for him in terms of rebuilding assets. If we need to retain salary to get a better return, so be it. He's not on the books for long anyway.

 

Voracek is similar, with the caveat being that he won't likely fetch a very big return. Still, at least shop him around and see what teams would offer. If something worthwhile comes around for a rebuilding team, take it. Take picks if that's all you can get. He's going to be a major lame duck (even worse than now) with a weaker team. There's no sense keeping him if there's any value to be had.

 

Trade Hayes pronto. This is the worst contract on the team by far, and Fletch should be shopping him like mad to be rid of it now before it becomes a headache. It was a bad contract the moment is was inked, but it could have been worth a gamble if the team was a depth center away from a cup. Turns out this team is not. This should be a big priority in the off season. He's very moveable given that he has played reasonably well here. Move him now before the contract becomes an anchor.

 

Trade JVR for picks or something. If he can't be moved, which is possible, then whatever. Hopefully Seattle takes him. The same goes for pretty much anyone else not mentioned above.

 

Will the team suck if any of that happens? Yep. Very suck. It's not like they're great now, and suckage means we might get lucky finally and get some quality top five picks to actually build a team around. The 2022 draft in particular is reported to be the potentially best draft year since 2003. Aim for that year and the following couple after it and load up on as many quality prospects as possible.

 

Oh, and get rid of Therrien and Yeo. They were always garbage, and they're still garbage. Give AV the option of staying for a rebuild. If he's not interested, which is entirely likely, then can his rear also. I don't fault AV for the problems with this team, but I don't want a coach who came here expecting a contender and ends up all crabby about how poorly it turned out in the end.

 

Oh, and for the love of whatever anything you happen to hold dear, would you please fire Lappy. I can't even.

Edited April 2, 2021 by elmatus

[Digityman]

2 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

At this point...you look for the infection, until it's gone. If you make an educated guess, and it's a mistake, so be it. NO ONE should be feeling safe from being moved, on this team. So beyond tired of my belief, that this team has been and continues to be, Club Med Philadelphia.

Agreed, they need to make sure they get it all.  GM and the head coach Cerberus (plus Lappy) should have insight into exactly where it's festering.  

[mojo1917]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't understand yours. EVERYONE IS DEALING WITH THIS.

 

WHEN DO WE STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THIS GODDAMN TEAM??

 

My apologies not shouting at you. Just tired of this sh it.

 

Just blow it up and get this rebuild going. Two years away from being two years.

dude it's the internet...it's fine re: shouting

 

your refusal to see that not everyone has had the same experience with the same circumstances continues to puzzle me.

They aren't robots, some guys got sick, some didn't, some teams had the virus rip through the locker room, some didn't, how is that the same?

it's not.

[Digityman]

6 minutes ago, elmatus said:

The 2022 draft in particular is reported to be the potentially best draft year since 2003. Aim for that year and the following couple after it and load up on as many quality prospects as possible.

 

I read that whole book you wrote      You made some good points.  My only argument is that, as you stated, the draft is pretty much a lottery.   So collecting quality draft picks might lead them to this exact same spot in 5 years.   Scalpel or hatchet.  

 

I'm in the scalpel group.  

[mojo1917]

29 minutes ago, CoachX said:

i get your point that you think it has an impact on their preparation and execution. I don't agree. But the specific impact on their physical effort, nah, I don't see it

 

 

thanks for clarifying that- i see that too. 

[SCFlyguy]

10 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Will the team suck if any of that happens? Yep. Very suck. It's not like they're great now, and suckage means we might get lucky finally and get some quality top five picks to actually build a team around. The 2022 draft in particular is reported to be the potentially best draft year since 2003. Aim for that year and the following couple after it and load up on as many quality prospects as possible.

The rest of elmatus' post is absolutely on the money, but this in particular.  Those who want immediate changes better get ready for 3-4 years of terrible to bad hockey.

[SCFlyguy]

3 minutes ago, Digityman said:

So collecting quality draft picks might lead them to this exact same spot in 5 years.   

Welcome to professional sports in the salary cap era.  Still, the worst place to be is mediocre, where you have limited chances of drafting the talent necessary to transform your franchise.

[Digityman]

Just had another thought.... what if it's all the gingers on this team.  I'm only half-kidding and mean no offense to our ginger-posting friends.

Full ginger = Giroux, Jake, Couturier, (Harnell still counts as a broadcaster), Gritty

Half ginger ? = Raffl? Hayes? Hart? Braun? Morin is close

Thank god for Oskar and his blonde locks.  

 

 

 

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, SCFlyguy said:

Welcome to professional sports in the salary cap era.  Still, the worst place to be is mediocre, where you have limited chances of drafting the talent necessary to transform your franchise.

The worst place to be, is having the organization irresponsibility, of giving two mediocre, or slightly better than mediocre players..in Voracek and Giroux massive, STUPID comtracts , one with an NMC. Now, we have to PRAY that we can move at least one of them.

[elmatus]

7 minutes ago, Digityman said:

 

I read that whole book you wrote      You made some good points.  My only argument is that, as you stated, the draft is pretty much a lottery.   So collecting quality draft picks might lead them to this exact same spot in 5 years.   Scalpel or hatchet.  

 

I'm in the scalpel group.  

 

the scalpel approach is exactly why the current roster is among the worst performing teams in the league. It’s time to pull out the hatchet. 
 

The draft is always a lottery sure, but it’s very heavily weighted in favour of top picks. If we want to build a contender, we should put chance on our side. 

 

7 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

The rest of elmatus' post is absolutely on the money, but this in particular.  Those who want immediate changes better get ready for 3-4 years of terrible to bad hockey.

 

Yeah, i’m saying exactly this. The team will suck. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. The team already sucks now after all. We might go from bottom ten to bottom five, but so what?

[FD19372]

7 minutes ago, Digityman said:

Just had another thought.... what if it's all the gingers on this team.  I'm only half-kidding and mean no offense to our ginger-posting friends.

Full ginger = Giroux, Jake, Couturier, (Harnell still counts as a broadcaster), Gritty

Half ginger ? = Raffl? Hayes? Hart? Braun? Morin is close

Thank god for Oskar and his blonde locks.  

 

 

 

Good. St. Patty's Day Month is over. Start moving some of their ginger arses out of town. No offense to any gingers on here. I'm just tired of many of the ones on the team.

Edited April 2, 2021 by FD19372