Howie58 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 I went out for errands and we were down 3-1. I got home with 12 minutes left in the third and we were tied at 3. I thought, well, maybe another comeback win is in order. Boy, was I wrong. Elliott may have signed his own non-renewal warrant tonight. Our D--WTF. Hopefully, CF is processing this very carefully. As a long-time fan...it is awful. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Howie58 said: I went out for errands and we were down 3-1. I got home with 12 minutes left in the third and we were tied at 3. I thought, well, maybe another comeback win is in order. Boy, was I wrong. Elliott may have signed his own non-renewal warrant tonight. Our D--WTF. Hopefully, CF is processing this very carefully. As a long-time fan...it is awful. So who's a good goalie that was either born or played in Minnesota that's available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 3 hours ago, flyercanuck said: So who's a good goalie that was either born or played in Minnesota that's available? After seven years and no playoff round wins all they needed was some vet D and a 2C. After nine years and one playoff round win all they need is... Lather. Rinse. Repeat. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 5 hours ago, CoachX said: So in addition to drafting guys that arent really that good, the Flyers draft guys who cant stay healthy? Can you elaborate upon a 24-year-old 3-time 20/~50 producer in the NHL not being "really that good." That's Travis Konecny. Ivan Provorov is a solid, potential #1 defenseman and has played big minutes at a young age. Sean Couturier is a gem. Joel Farabee had pretty darn good sophomore season. I've documented extensively on threads what the Flyers draft picks have done and what possible alternatives they had where they were drafting and without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, the Flyers' drafting has been pretty good overall. 2 hours ago, Howie58 said: Yes, and I think Nolan Patrick may be the poster child. Nolan Patrick is 22, and has experienced a very unfortunate migraine issue. What "scouting" was going to reveal that when no other team in the league saw that coming, either? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 minute ago, radoran said: Can you elaborate I was mainly referring to the current group of prospects who are in the system. There have numerous posts from multiple members, lamenting that these prospects are not that good. Provy is good, for sure. Farabee seems to be good. But so was Konecny. Does Farabee develop into a consistent player? I hope so. But Konecny has been a mystery since last seasons playoffs. You pointed out Coots, Konency, Farabee, and Provy. Ok. I agree. I'd put Giroux there as well. But if we are going that far, and I was really reflecting on now, I'd say JVR, Laughton, Raffl, Myers, Sanheim, Friedman, NAK, Goulbourne, Hagg, Patrick, Vorobyev, Kase, are all guys who have been either decent pieces, disappointments or busts. As for Patrick, migraine issue aside, going all the way back to 2013, he has had injury problems. In my opinion, injuries are the least of his worries now. Although, being fair about it, it could be the fear of injury that makes him play so timid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, CoachX said: But Konecny has been a mystery since last seasons playoffs. Konecny "on pace" for 17/55. 8 minutes ago, CoachX said: I'd say JVR, Laughton, Raffl, Myers, Sanheim, Friedman, NAK, Goulbourne, Hagg, Patrick, Vorobyev, Kase So, I've listed some of these before but... JVR was a multiple time 30 goal scorer (25+ four times) in Tronno, they just happened to trade those years away for Luke Schenn. Two guys taken after him have more goals and points - Couture (9th) and Pacioretty (22nd). Laughton was a low 1st rounder who matured into an effective bottom 6 guy (and shakes out better than most guys taken after him). He's played more games than any 1st rounder taken after him except Olli Maataa and Tanner Pearson (who was taken last in the 1st). Is he overvalued and overpaid? Prossibly? Raffl and Myers were undrafted FA pickups. To get anything out of that type of player is a bonus. The Flyers and 23 other teams would like to have Pastrnak over Sanheim. Flyers were looking to build on their D prospects (like it or not) and aside from DeAngelo two picks after him, you have to get to Montour at 55th to get a "better" D player in that draft. Friedman was a third rounder - the only "miss" you might look at is Arvidsson, who every other team in the NHL passed on three times. Aube-Kubel? I think all 30 other teams would like to have Brayden Point, but all 30 other teams passed on him at least twice - some three times. Six guys taken before NAK in the 2nd have yet to play a game in the league. 8 more taken ahead of him have played fewer games than he has. Third rounders are a crap shoot. Would we rather have Jake Guentzel than Goulbourne? Sure. So would Phoenix, Nashville, Calgary, Dallas, the Rangers, Islanders (twice), Montreal, and New Jersey all of whom also passed on Guentzel in the third round and took players who have yet to play a game in the NHL. Does Goulbourne represent something of a representation of the organizational* mindset? Yes. Hagg has played more games at D than anyone taken after him except Pesce. Who "should" they have taken that they didn't in the 2nd? Artturri Lehkonen? William Carrier? Vorobyev is a 4th rounder and you omitted Samuel "Who??" Dove-McFalls who the Flyers took four picks ahead of him. I don't know who the obvious "impact player" taken after him would have been. Fifth rounder Kase in that same draft. If you're expecting to hit gold in the 3rd/4th/5th round consistently or even frequently or even at all, you're almost always going to be disappointed. And 20/20 hindsight is always better than prognostication. 31 minutes ago, CoachX said: As for Patrick, migraine issue aside, going all the way back to 2013, he has had injury problems. True, and NHL Central Scouting still had him as the #1 ranked North American skater. Sports hernias can be chronic, but more often than not are fixable with surgery and adequate recovery time. His sports hernia has not been "a problem" in the NHL. It was a cheap hit and then the migraines. From where I sit, all this is more a function of the Flyers drafting in the mid to low end of the 1st round as they bumble along as a bubble playoff team than it is "bad drafting". The "problem" for me is choosing the wrong guys to build the foundation of the team around and the continual "chasing the dragon" with the "make the playoff and anything can happen" mindset for an organization* that has missed the playoffs going on five of the past nine years. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, radoran said: Konecny "on pace" for 17/55. So, I've listed some of these before but... JVR was a multiple time 30 goal scorer (25+ four times) in Tronno, they just happened to trade those years away for Luke Schenn. Two guys taken after him have more goals and points - Couture (9th) and Pacioretty (22nd). Laughton was a low 1st rounder who matured into an effective bottom 6 guy (and shakes out better than most guys taken after him). He's played more games than any 1st rounder taken after him except Olli Maataa and Tanner Pearson (who was taken last in the 1st). Is he overvalued and overpaid? Prossibly? Raffl and Myers were undrafted FA pickups. To get anything out of that type of player is a bonus. The Flyers and 23 other teams would like to have Pastrnak over Sanheim. Flyers were looking to build on their D prospects (like it or not) and aside from DeAngelo two picks after him, you have to get to Montour at 55th to get a "better" D player in that draft. Friedman was a third rounder - the only "miss" you might look at is Arvidsson, who every other team in the NHL passed on three times. Aube-Kubel? I think all 30 other teams would like to have Brayden Point, but all 30 other teams passed on him at least twice - some three times. Six guys taken before NAK in the 2nd have yet to play a game in the league. 8 more taken ahead of him have played fewer games than he has. Third rounders are a crap shoot. Would we rather have Jake Guentzel than Goulbourne? Sure. So would Phoenix, Nashville, Calgary, Dallas, the Rangers, Islanders (twice), Montreal, and New Jersey all of whom also passed on Guentzel in the third round and took players who have yet to play a game in the NHL. Does Goulbourne represent something of a representation of the organizational* mindset? Yes. Hagg has played more games at D than anyone taken after him except Pesce. Who "should" they have taken that they didn't in the 2nd? Artturri Lehkonen? William Carrier? Vorobyev is a 4th rounder and you omitted Samuel "Who??" Dove-McFalls who the Flyers took four picks ahead of him. I don't know who the obvious "impact player" taken after him would have been. Fifth rounder Kase in that same draft. If you're expecting to hit gold in the 3rd/4th/5th round consistently or even frequently or even at all, you're almost always going to be disappointed. And 20/20 hindsight is always better than prognostication. True, and NHL Central Scouting still had him as the #1 ranked North American skater. Sports hernias can be chronic, but more often than not are fixable with surgery and adequate recovery time. His sports hernia has not been "a problem" in the NHL. It was a cheap hit and then the migraines. From where I sit, all this is more a function of the Flyers drafting in the mid to low end of the 1st round as they bumble along as a bubble playoff team than it is "bad drafting". The "problem" for me is choosing the wrong guys to build the foundation of the team around and the continual "chasing the dragon" with the "make the playoff and anything can happen" mindset for an organization* that has missed the playoffs going on five of the past nine years. Nice post sir. Thanks for saving me the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: So who's a good goalie that was either born or played in Minnesota that's available? Did Garrison Keillor ever play? WTF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, radoran said: Nolan Patrick is 22, and has experienced a very unfortunate migraine issue. What "scouting" was going to reveal that when no other team in the league saw that coming, either? I agree and respectfully (emphasis on latter) disagree. I believe there is some evidence linking concussion-proneness to migraine. https://www.hcplive.com/view/migraine-history-concussion-severity We might have gambled on this young man given concussion and hernia history and made a decision the benefits outweighed the risks. Going into the post-RFA status, I the linkage needs to be factored, and I suspect AV's concern a few games ago probably reflects the organization's awareness that Nolan's head issues may be "systemic" and linked. It may also impact his "tradeability." That is one non-medico's opinion. Edited April 28, 2021 by Howie58 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 11 hours ago, Howie58 said: Elliott may have signed his own non-renewal warrant tonight. I wonder if he even wants to play another year. When I heard it was Elliot and not Lyon I knew we'd see at least 1 awful goal. He's just not able to play well in back-to-back games, apparently even when there's days off between. I hope no one is comfortable going with Hart/Lyon next year. I expect Hart will bounce back *IF* the Flyers begin playing Team D again...but he'll need a non-AHL backup I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Howie58 said: We might have gambled on this young man given concussion and hernia history and made a decision the benefits outweighed the risks. I don't see him with a concussion prior to the hit in Anaheim. He had a shoulder injury and then the sports hernia in Junior. Happy as always to learn. 7 minutes ago, Howie58 said: Going into the post-RFA status, I the linkage needs to be factored, and I suspect AV's concern a few games ago probably reflects the organization's awareness that Nolan's head issues may be "systemic" and linked. Patrick is still an RFA after this season. He took a $50K cut after his ELC and c/should be around that level again. For risk/reward at ~$1M they will probably take that gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, radoran said: Patrick is still an RFA after this season. He took a $50K cut after his ELC and c/should be around that level again. For risk/reward at ~$1M they will probably take that gamble. Thanks for the correction. I've read two pundits that think his career with the O and B will be over sooner than later as a change-of-scenery play. He won't be the overall second draft pick who hasn't done much playing elsewhere. I see some truth to that...maybe not much, but some. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CoachX Posted April 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, radoran said: From where I sit, all this is more a function of the Flyers drafting in the mid to low end of the 1st round as they bumble along as a bubble playoff team than it is "bad drafting". The "problem" for me is choosing the wrong guys to build the foundation of the team around and the continual "chasing the dragon" with the "make the playoff and anything can happen" mindset for an organization* that has missed the playoffs going on five of the past nine years i agree with you on al points. My post was not meant to be a referendum on the entire draft process, starting from "whatever" point. It was more of a general remark to express more of my disgust with what they are today But to your above point, and taking all these drafts into account, this franchise has not had a generational talent since Lindros, and maybe they do good drafting, but it hasn't translated to much on the ice 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertaflyer Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 25 minutes ago, Howie58 said: Thanks for the correction. I've read two pundits that think his career with the O and B will be over sooner than later as a change-of-scenery play. He won't be the overall second draft pick who hasn't done much playing elsewhere. I see some truth to that...maybe not much, but some. The one thing with Patrick is he looks scared on the ice. Like don't touch me scared. It honestly looks like he doesn't enjoy playing hockey anymore. I could be wrong but that's his body language right now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucson83 Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 29 minutes ago, CoachX said: i agree with you on al points. My post was not meant to be a referendum on the entire draft process, starting from "whatever" point. It was more of a general remark to express more of my disgust with what they are today But to your above point, and taking all these drafts into account, this franchise has not had a generational talent since Lindros, and maybe they do good drafting, but it hasn't translated to much on the ice problem with that is the draft lottery and how great the draft class is, that's why im saying is that you have to either trade for a short term star until a young star shows up in fa. tanking is just not the way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, albertaflyer said: The one thing with Patrick is he looks scared on the ice. Like don't touch me scared. It honestly looks like he doesn't enjoy playing hockey anymore. I could be wrong but that's his body language right now. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. It's concerning and well and makes me want to cut bait and move him while he has value (sure that is low) before it gets even lower. Edited April 28, 2021 by OccamsRazor #boubonup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 12 hours ago, Howie58 said: I went out for errands and we were down 3-1. I got home with 12 minutes left in the third and we were tied at 3. I thought, well, maybe another comeback win is in order. Boy, was I wrong. Elliott may have signed his own non-renewal warrant tonight. Our D--WTF. Hopefully, CF is processing this very carefully. As a long-time fan...it is awful. I loved Elliott's game last night. Play him every night until the bitter end. The draft position will only get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. It's concerning and we'll wants me to cut bait and move him while he has value (sure that is low) before it gets even lower. totally Hypothetical: Let's say you are a young guy with a bright future. You know you have had significant injuries, ones that have cost you extended loss of playing time, in the past. Your dream comes true and you make to the bigs. That's where you find out that everyone else is big and fast, and you are no longer a big fish in a small pond. Then you have more injuries, and then a medical situation that causes you to miss a season. You have to be thinking of long terms side effects, especially in this concussion panic sports world we live in. Being this young, maybe you are afraid it may be over before it ever started I could see a player being afraid. I could also see a player doing only enough to secure the money he is making, not knowing if it will be his last. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, CoachX said: totally Hypothetical: Let's say you are a young guy with a bright future. You know you have had significant injuries, ones that have cost you extended loss of playing time, in the past. Your dream comes true and you make to the bigs. That's where you find out that everyone else is big and fast, and you are no longer a big fish in a small pond. Then you have more injuries, and then a medical situation that causes you to miss a season. You have to be thinking of long terms side effects, especially in this concussion panic sports world we live in. Being this young, maybe you are afraid it may be over before it ever started I could see a player being afraid. I could also see a player doing only enough to secure the money he is making, not knowing if it will be his last. Oh yeah I can see that. He is only human and still young with a bright future ahead of him. Why chance it all on a game? I get it. It is why I too have looked at it from the Flyers perspective too and know it is a business decision too. For both sides. Who knows how long this all will go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 20 minutes ago, CoachX said: I could see a player being afraid. I could also see a player doing only enough to secure the money he is making, not knowing if it will be his last. That is well-said. At some point he may need to wonder what his life will be at 30 or 40 if things don't go well medically. Keith Primeau's commentary applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Howie58 said: I've read two pundits that think his career with the O and B will be over sooner than later as a change-of-scenery play. He won't be the overall second draft pick who hasn't done much playing elsewhere. I see some truth to that...maybe not much, but some. Honestly, I think from a risk/rewards standpoint of getting rid of him for not much vs. keeping him for not much leans on the "keep" side. That said, they did drop another #2 overall who went on to score 25+ four times (30+ twice) for being "disappointing" (not to mention another guy who went on to be a three-time Cup winner and Conn Smythe recipient) so that's the track record there... Team needs a serious shakeup in the E Suite. Like, a wholesale replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 2 hours ago, CoachX said: this franchise has not had a generational talent since Lindros Nor have they been able to buy one like Lindros. Pittsburgh flat out sucked for years before getting Crosby. Edmonton did the same thing before McDavid. This organization* has neither been good enough to win on the ice nor bad enough to win in the draft. They're not going to get a generational player picking in the low teens/high 20s. And that again reflects an organizational* mindset that was always able to go out and buy players either as FA or via trade to be successful. Until they demanded that there be a salary cap. Then they tried everything to circumvent that cap before it could be implemented, traded away the circumvention, and... well... there they are still trying to buy a FA or make a trade to make it work. It's beyond frustrating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, CoachX said: I could see a player being afraid. I could also see a player doing only enough to secure the money he is making, not knowing if it will be his last. There is something to be said for this. Especially as Patrick came in as a heralded pick who c/should have had a profitable future and instead wound up taking a $50K cut on his ELC just to stay in the game. Guy probably has around $1.5-$2M in the bank after management fees and taxes (at best, if handled well - and, for the record, I'll take it!) but was projecting to be a guy making multiple times that per year. If he wants any shot to get anywhere near that level, he's got to play a different game. Can he? Will he? Remains to be seen, but trending away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertaflyer Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, radoran said: Nor have they been able to buy one like Lindros. Pittsburgh flat out sucked for years before getting Crosby. Edmonton did the same thing before McDavid. This organization* has neither been good enough to win on the ice nor bad enough to win in the draft. They're not going to get a generational player picking in the low teens/high 20s. And that again reflects an organizational* mindset that was always able to go out and buy players either as FA or via trade to be successful. Until they demanded that there be a salary cap. Then they tried everything to circumvent that cap before it could be implemented, traded away the circumvention, and... well... there they are still trying to buy a FA or make a trade to make it work. It's beyond frustrating. We could try suck to get Connor Bedard. 1.87 points per game as a 16 year old. Mcdavid was 1.05 per game at his age. Connor Bedard: A Generational Talent (thehockeywriters.com) Actually the way they look right now we might not be far off from him. Edited April 28, 2021 by albertaflyer change 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, albertaflyer said: We could try suck to get Connor Bedard. 1.87 points per game as a 16 year old. Mcdavid was 1.05 per game at his age. Connor Bedard: A Generational Talent (thehockeywriters.com) Actually the way they look right now we might not be far off from him. Retard for Bedard! before anyone gets mad, I'm using the classic definition here... retard VERB delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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