Cheesesteak Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 On 2/20/2022 at 10:38 AM, OccamsRazor said: Really it has been that long no way has to be someone in there...but I have not thought of anyone. Vincent Lecavalier? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindbergh31 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 23 hours ago, elmatus said: I guess I'm just not sure what this is supposed to mean? He's a skill-based playmaker who has very good ice vision, can create space for others, and is at his best when making high skill passes that few players in the world can do. I feel he's done that very consistently the whole time. I don't think it's fair to suggest he doesn't care or he doesn't try. I think it is fair to suggest he can't do it all, and there are things he shouldn't frankly be asked to do, because that's just not his game. He's scored a bunch of points, so he's clearly "bringing it" in that regard. But if we're not talking about his actual captain duties of motivating the team, working as a go-between with coaches, and dealing with refs, what are we talking about in terms of his captaincy? To me, if we're going to suggest he's not a great captain, those are very much the things we should be considering. It doesn't seem fair to say he's not a good captain because he's not Lindros or Clarke. There are virtually no such players left in the NHL today, but plenty of NHL captains who find success. This is all besides the point of the thread also. Again, in terms of his value to a contending team, his skills make him easily the most impactful player on the market this season. What that fetches in a trade though, with all the challenges related to his status longer term and age, is anyone's guess. I think Giroux is a good captain but didn't have lots of support over the years. The question now with the Flyers fans that hope that he gets traded so the Flyers can accumulate picks and young players, how will the Philly fans react if he doesn't waive his no-trade clause to be traded. Will they boo him or say it was his choice he earned that right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said: I think Giroux is a good captain but didn't have lots of support over the years. The question now with the Flyers fans that hope that he gets traded so the Flyers can accumulate picks and young players, how will the Philly fans react if he doesn't waive his no-trade clause to be traded. Will they boo him or say it was his choice he earned that right. I think both. He will definitely get booed- which when thought about in a vacuum seems really weird. A player gets "punished" for being loyal and wanting to succeed where he was drafted- what an asshole! I hope he waives and can play on a winner. He's not the reason the team has been bad. Although a strong case could be made that he is the reason the team isn't better...as has been discussed ad nauseum by many of us. I am not expecting a huge return based on his NMC and the leaked preferred destinations. Colorado won't want to part with the pieces to make the trade advantageous for PHI. The other teams mentioned to be "favored" all have their own issues as well. I think Carolina would be a great trade partner- they could certainly use a guy like him in their top 9 to give them a little more scoring punch. They have a lot of good prospects and wouldn't have to even dip into their NHL roster. The Flyers could retain a significant portion the rest of the year's salary. That could be a trade that helps both organizations. But I don't know if they're favored by Giroux and Brisson, it seems to me the pieces fit as Maynard James Keenan likes to say. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GratefulFlyers Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 26 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: He's not the reason the team has been bad. Although a strong case could be made that he is the reason the team isn't better Hmm, seems to me it has to be one or the other, no? If he's not the reason "the team has been bad" then how can he also be "the reason the team isn't better?" But like you said...ad nauseum...not much left of this dead horse. 32 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: He will definitely get booed Wow really? It's been many years since I was at a Flyers' game in Philly. I can see booing him if he makes a bad play but as an overall "FU" if he's still around after the TD? I'd be shocked. Not so much bc fans respect him so much - though I think they should, and do - but mostly because 90% of the fans don't have a clue what it means to the Flyers if Giroux stays. Personally I don't think it hampers the Flyers terribly. If their player development history was better I'd be more excited about moving him for picks/prospects. As it is...they're probably almost better off just keeping Giroux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: it seems to me the pieces fit as Maynard James Keenan likes to say Double thumbs up for the Tool reference? That should be a thing, but only for this specific case. 13 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said: Hmm, seems to me it has to be one or the other, no? If he's not the reason "the team has been bad" then how can he also be "the reason the team isn't better?" Because Giroux is an above average player who has been instrumental in keeping this team on the bubble over his tenure. Without him, this team would have (possibly) been a bottom dweller, which would have meant having higher 1st round picks to play with and maybe getting in on something like a McDavid or Matthews for instance. We never had a shot at landing any generational type guys, in part because of Giroux propping up the team and keeping us on the bubble. At the same time, Giroux isn't a gamechanger of that ilk himself, so he isn't good enough to make the team into a playoff team just on his skill set alone. He would have needed other elite talents around him, which is something he never had. So the idea in short is that he's been good enough to make this into a bubble team, but not good enough to make it into a contender. It's worth noting very few players in the league can do that singlehandedly of course, but it is what it is. Obviously, that's just a what if style theory, but it does seem a plausible one. Here's another prediction some folks here may hate: If Giroux gets traded to a contender and ends up playing with proper elite talent for essentially the first time in his career, I have a strong feeling he's going to show a level of skill he's rarely been able to show here. That's going to suck, and many (myself included) are going to hate watching it happen. But, that's exactly what I think will happen. Some will cry "why did he never play this way in Philly?!?!" and the more reasonable will chime in with "he's never had that level of team to play on", which is exactly true and sad and not at all fun to consider when you're a fan of the crappy team in question. Edited February 23, 2022 by elmatus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post pilldoc Posted February 23, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2022 18 minutes ago, elmatus said: Some will cry "why did he never play this way in Philly?!?!" and the more reasonable will chime in with "he's never had that level of team to play on", which is exactly true All one has to do is look at the season when Jagr was here. Proof is in the pudding. Again as I made mention before several times, biggest mistake this FO ever did was not keeping Jagr. Huge opportunity lost ..... 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 22 minutes ago, pilldoc said: All one has to do is look at the season when Jagr was here. Proof is in the pudding. Again as I made mention before several times, one of the many biggest mistakes this FO ever did was not keeping Jagr. Huge opportunity lost ..... FIFY 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 55 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said: Hmm, seems to me it has to be one or the other, no? If he's not the reason "the team has been bad" then how can he also be "the reason the team isn't better?" He was good enough and able to produce enough to keep the team from really being terrible and thus picking higher in the draft where the franchise changing players can be drafted like Nathan MacKinnon, Aaron Ekblad, Seth Jones and the like. ...But not able to change the fortunes of the team directly with only his line being dangerous for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: He will definitely get booed- which when thought about in a vacuum seems really weird. There will be some boos, perhaps - but I think really only if he's vocal about not waiving his NMC and that's the reason he's still here. If ol' Fletch can't make a deal, the boos will be for him. There's also the side note that the building is half empty these days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 47 minutes ago, elmatus said: Double thumbs up for the Tool reference? thanks, 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 30 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Jagr. Huge opportunity lost ... Jagr was Voracek's idol growing up, both players from the same hometown. Late career Jagr was a work-out freak who had won championships. Playing on a team with your boy-hood idol, getting to hangout and skate with him...that influence. His mere presence could have elevated Jake to a higher level of play. Funny how that oversight damaged the course of the team for 10+ years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Although a strong case could be made that he is the reason the team isn't better... The main reason as i stated awhile back is he was cast as Batman when he was really meant to be cast as Robin. The Flyers just never truly found themselves a Batman (and that is their fault) and well he was just left in that role....Jake was cast as Robin when he was really just the Joker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 48 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Jagr was Voracek's idol growing up, both players from the same hometown. Late career Jagr was a work-out freak who had won championships. Playing on a team with your boy-hood idol, getting to hangout and skate with him...that influence. His mere presence could have elevated Jake to a higher level of play. Funny how that oversight damaged the course of the team for 10+ years. What has hurt the Flyers more than anything since 2019-20 is the lack of a dominate 2nd line to help ease the burden of the first - also allowed the opposition to just shut down the top line and then well the team was neutralize because no one else on the team could make them pay. When you look back at the year Giroux and Jake had their best years they had very good second lines to help keep the puck from the other team and deposited into the other net. It doesn't have to be exactly the 2nd line but they need secondary scoring and they are not getting that today. Last year they really had that was.. 2014-15 Simmonds 28 goals Giroux 25 goals Voracek 22 goals Raffl 20 goals Schenn 18 goals Coots 15 goals Del Zotto 10 goals 2017-18 Giroux 34 goals Coots 31 goals Konecny 24 goals Simmonds 24 goals Voracek 20 goals Provorov 17 goals Ghost 13 goals Patrick 13 goals 2019-20 Konecny 24 goals Hayes 23 goals Coots 22 goals Giroux 21 goals JVR 19 goals Provorov 13 goals Laughton 13 goals Lindblom 11 goals And this is the year the wheels fell off after Oskar went down the team struggled but righted the ship and then the stoppage happened and well the Flyers have never been the same. So one thing for sure is this team needs much needed support from their blueline and mostly importantly not required for one line to carry them and well they don't have that anymore. So it is time to blow it up and get back to at least having two very good lines that can run with the big teams in the East and well some good play from the bottom 6 will go along way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: Funny how that oversight damaged the course of the team for 10+ years. Hall of Fame level decision, that. #halloffame 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 So all this talk about trading Giroux has in large part been focused on doing what is right by him. Ok. The Flyers reward him by trading to a contender. Good for the Flyers. Its the right thing to do but what if the Flyers cant make a trade for him and wait until free agency? Will Giroux do the right thing and sign with Flyers, a contract that will help the team? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, CoachX said: So all this talk about trading Giroux has in large part been focused on doing what is right by him. Ok. The Flyers reward him by trading to a contender. Good for the Flyers. Its the right thing to do They've spent the last ten years claiming they were a contender with him. The "right thing to do" is get the best deal to make the Flyers better. I don't give the hind quarters of a rodent if he goes on to win a Cup somewhere else. Someday the least successful captain in franchise history will join the worst coach, an average player and a mediocre GM in the Flyers Hall of Fame. 10 minutes ago, CoachX said: but what if the Flyers cant make a trade for him and wait until free agency? Will Giroux do the right thing and sign with Flyers, a contract that will help the team? What contract that he signs will "help the team"? Why is it "the right thing"? My feeling is that he comes back anyway. Five years ~$6M per. At the end of the deal they're two years away from being two years away. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 23 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Jagr was Voracek's idol growing up, both players from the same hometown. Late career Jagr was a work-out freak who had won championships. Playing on a team with your boy-hood idol, getting to hangout and skate with him...that influence. His mere presence could have elevated Jake to a higher level of play. Funny how that oversight damaged the course of the team for 10+ years. Jake played MUCH better the season Jagr was here, he was actually motivated and it showed....Shame the Flyers didn't notice that and resign Jagr. If I remember correctly, the Flyers were going after some big-name free agent and ignored Jagr so he got tired of waiting and signed elsewhere. Bunch of Idiots! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 I know the talk is about Giroux and trading him but the best thing they can do is get this guy off the ice and away from the kids.... https://imgur.com/a/XRETYjL#dyJ2tBp ...get him the fcuk out of here scratch him his streak is over scratch him now maybe you have a chance to move him somewhere else but his defense is why they are in the mess....no way i let him show Travis Sanheim or Ivan Provorov anything... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: get him the fcuk out of here scratch him He's back on PP1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, radoran said: He's back on PP1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: I know the talk is about Giroux and trading him but the best thing they can do is get this guy off the ice and away from the kids.... https://imgur.com/a/XRETYjL#dyJ2tBp ...get him the fcuk out of here scratch him his streak is over scratch him now maybe you have a chance to move him somewhere else but his defense is why they are in the mess....no way i let him show Travis Sanheim or Ivan Provorov anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 15 minutes ago, CoachX said: I was just suggesting Giroux would need a bell hop help him get where he is going....throw him in for just doing business......WITH ANYONE.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 23 minutes ago, radoran said: As always hindsight will give us the rest of the story. Till then whatever.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) I had mentioned this Tweet before by James Iacovone before. I have no idea what Colorado was going to have to do, as far as moving pieces in trades to get Giroux under the cap. Whatever it was, was certainly too rich for their blood. The Avs might have cheaper depth alternatives, and searching for goalie options as their main priorities...as of today. Edited February 25, 2022 by FD19372 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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