Mike Yeo NOT returning as Head Coach for Flyers / Who do you want?

[mojo1917]

14 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Ellis looked good on paper, but I was warning in that trade thread on his extensive injury history! Sad to be right.

Really? 

I'm calling BS here.

A concussion, 2020 a hand injury 2019 and what else?

Of those injuries the hand was fluky and the other  I think cheap shot Perry related. 

 

Guy was pretty durable for most of his career.

If you want to say he was a little guy who competed hard the way @flyer4ever is saying....I can abide.

 

But it's not like he was Sam Morin or even Wade Allison and couldn't get on the ice for all of his career.

 

BTW good to see you around the site.

 

 

[jammer2]

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Really? 

I'm calling BS here.

A concussion, 2020 a hand injury 2019 and what else?

Of those injuries the hand was fluky and the other  I think cheap shot Perry related. 

 

Guy was pretty durable for most of his career.

If you want to say he was a little guy who competed hard the way @flyer4ever is saying....I can abide.

 

But it's not like he was Sam Morin or even Wade Allison and couldn't get on the ice for all of his career.

 

BTW good to see you around the site.

 

 

At work so don't have time to look it up,but I remember more than that. Broke his hand in Windsor, and had a concussion for the Spits also. You're forgetting...I saw his entire Jr career ....not just the NHL. 

[CoachX]

Per Meltzer: Andy Strickland reported on Monday that he has heard veteran head coach John Tortorella is one of the short-list candidates the Flyers are considering for their coaching vacancy. This is not particularly a surprise. During Exit Day, Flyers winger Cam Atkinson publicly endorsed his former Columbus coach as someone who could instill the type of accountability and "f- you" on-ice disposition that Atkinson feels the team needs to adopt to a higher degree. Despite Tortorella's public image as an ultra-demanding and sometimes punitive coach, Atkinson said that all of the Blue Jackets players loved played for him and felt Tortorella was in their corner

 

I would love for Torts to come to Philly

[Podein25]

8 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Per Meltzer: Andy Strickland reported on Monday that he has heard veteran head coach John Tortorella is one of the short-list candidates the Flyers are considering for their coaching vacancy. This is not particularly a surprise. During Exit Day, Flyers winger Cam Atkinson publicly endorsed his former Columbus coach as someone who could instill the type of accountability and "f- you" on-ice disposition that Atkinson feels the team needs to adopt to a higher degree. Despite Tortorella's public image as an ultra-demanding and sometimes punitive coach, Atkinson said that all of the Blue Jackets players loved played for him and felt Tortorella was in their corner

 

I would love for Torts to come to Philly

 

I don't doubt this, but I wonder if Torts actually knows anything about hockey, like the Xs and Os stuff? 

 

Ack, maybe that sh!t doesn't really matter: take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill-humor amirite? 

[CoachX]

3 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

Ack, maybe that sh!t doesn't really matter: take the shortest route to the puck and arrive in ill-humor amirite?

Flyer legend was born from this mantra

[jammer2]

14 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Flyer legend was born from this mantra

Freddie the Fog!!

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, jammer2 said:

At work so don't have time to look it up,but I remember more than that. Broke his hand in Windsor, and had a concussion for the Spits also. You're forgetting...I saw his entire Jr career ....not just the NHL.

That's fair.

 

For my figuring I just did some quick arithmetic on Ellis and some similar top of the line-up players.

Prior to last year (the information available to Fletcher at the time of the trade) he had been available 76% of the time which compares to Kris Letang (77%) but he certainly hasn't been indestructible like Drew Doughty 95%,  I thought he would have a similar injury history to Erik Karlsson or Brent Burns but those guys were healthier than I expected 88% and 85% availability. 

 

I didn't think Ellis' history was any worse than the average NHL player, I don't know where that mean lies there but 76% isn't awesome and I'll bet is below the that line.

[radoran]

18 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I didn't think Ellis' history was any worse than the average NHL player, I don't know where that mean lies there but 76% isn't awesome and I'll bet is below the that line.

 

There's really nothing in his history that says a mysterious core muscle issue would be the thing that takes him out for a season. A broken hand here, a concussion there, a joint...

 

But the point that he has a LOT of wear and tear on his small-for-the-role body c/should have been more of a red flag.

 

This is part of the problem with the whole "aggressive retool" approach - it lends itself to seeing the best, expecting the best, and ignoring the potential problems for the benefit of a Big Name that can Change Things. See; Pronger, Chris.

 

This organization* seems to concentrate on adding established players on the downslope of their careers rather than finding emerging players with upside.

 

Yes, there is a balance and veteran perspective and leadership can't be ignored. But the potential issues that can arise with a 5-10, 180-lb player in his twelfth season shouldn't be downplayed when adding that player with five years left on his deal at $6.25M per.

 

The faux Finn he was designed to replace was 6-1, 203 and he just walked away at age 35.

[CoachX]

@mojo1917

 

You know, the flyers suck right now. a good majority of flyer fans are pretty bummed. They are going to crap on pretty much every aspect of what any player does, or what anyone's POV is. Players get hurt all the time. Right now, any move Flecth has made is under a microscope. If Ellis returns and plays a season to his level, watch the argument change

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

This organization* seems to concentrate on adding established players on the downslope of their careers rather than finding emerging players with upside.

i say you win the day

 

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Right now, any move Flecth has made is under a microscope.

 

Dude "aggressively retooled" the team into one of the worst seasons in franchise history. He kinda owns that.

 

There's another team that's taking a $12M cap hit next season and then two $14M cap hits to get out from under some other ol' Fletch moves (yes, we are aware the "owner wanted it").

 

In the end, the Flyers and ol' Fletch deserve to be under a microscope.

 

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

If Ellis returns and plays a season to his level, watch the argument change

 

That is, as they say, a BIG "if".

 

I hope Ellis can come back and be "Ryan Ellis" but until that happens, he's just a broken tool in the shed.

 

Meanwhile, the organization* will "aggressively retool" based on the assumption he will? will not?

 

Come to think of it, how does one "aggressively retool" an organization* with the top pair Dman a massive question mark?

 

We're gonna find out!

 

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

Dude "aggressively retooled" the team into one of the worst seasons in franchise history. He kinda owns that.

Forgive me, I spent a weekend listening to my wife. My perception and mental acuity is all left of center

 

Don't misunderstand me, I know I'm a bipolar poster, I hate Fletch and what he has done. I was just trying to point out that current emotions from some, may lead to a more staunch negative position.

 

And I agree, this is ALL pretty much Fletch's fault...if thats what you said

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

This organization* seems to concentrate on adding established players on the downslope of their careers rather than finding emerging players with upside.

 

 

 THIS ^^^ THIS ^^^ THIS ^^^ and THIS ^^^ some more! Constantly paying washed up bums for what they used to be, or overpaying not-so-good players hoping they'll earn it.

[GratefulFlyers]

8 hours ago, radoran said:

and ignoring the potential problems for the benefit of a Big Name that can Change Things. See; Pronger, Chris.

I agree with your overall point about another Flyers halfass rebuild under a new name but the example of Pronger confuses me. His injury story is not at all similar to Ellis’. If you meant normal wear and tear well every NHLer pushing 30, or 35 in CP’s case will have their share. 
 

But Pronger will forever be one of the NHL poster boys for a freak injury ending a career. Not Ellis. You noted he had a

 

8 hours ago, radoran said:

LOT of wear and tear on his small-for-the-role body c/should have been more of a red flag.

 

but that’s a far cry from a hockey stick to the eyeball. So, two  different players with different injury histories. I guess I just missed why Pronger gets a mention. Both big names certainly but the comparison doesn’t go much further for me.

[radoran]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I agree with your overall point about another Flyers halfass rebuild under a new name but the example of Pronger confuses me.

 

A 35 year old with Pronger's history isn't that different than Ellis at 31.

 

There was a LOT of mileage on Pronger and there's no way to guarantee if his previous history didn't play a role in the "freak" injury (see "freak" mysterious core injury).

[GratefulFlyers]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

A 35 year old with Pronger's history isn't that different than Ellis at 31.

 

There was a LOT of mileage on Pronger and there's no way to guarantee if his previous history didn't play a role in the "freak" injury (see "freak" mysterious core injury).

 

Okay - I can see the first part that's a valid opinion. I don't share it but I won't try to argue it.

 

The 2nd part? To me it's a stretch to think his prior injuries played any part of what happened here.

 

 

[radoran]

27 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

The 2nd part? To me it's a stretch to think his prior injuries played any part of what happened here.

 

By the same token, it's a stretch to say that a broken hand or a concussion is a harbinger of a mysterious core muscle injury.

 

It's not the individual event, it's the overall toll taken on a body over time.

 

The idea that a guy who played the game like Pronger would be fully healthy into his late 30's/early 40s was criticized by many when the deal went down. Whether it was a freak eye injury/concussion or something else, it wasn't terribly surprising that his career ended in injury.

 

And Pronger was 6'6", 220lbs, not 5'10, 180.

 

The overall issue - that the Flyers have shown a predilection for going with players either on or entering the downside of their careers - remains.

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

By the same token, it's a stretch to say that a broken hand or a concussion is a harbinger of a mysterious core muscle injury.

 

Yes it is but who said that?

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

it wasn't terribly surprising that his career ended in injury.

 

I suppose not but only because suffering a career-ending injury is a risk all NHL players take, right? I don't think Pronger was any more susceptible to it than other players, particularly guys who play big minutes. No less either.

 

Back when the Flyers traded for Chris Pronger I don't remember worrying about his injury history. When Fletcher signed Ellis it was the first thing I thought of, mostly because Poile practically gave him away. You mentioned his wear and tear as a red flag; Poile's price was another.

 

[mojo1917]

@GratefulFlyers

I have a couple of things about your post here.

First You have make a good point,  Eilis had missed time for regular hockey injuries that heal. It should have been considered. I do think the FO was aware, they can read, they probably didn't weigh the injury history to the level you would have had you been in their shoes; Especially today.

 

But a lot of folks are acting like anyone with a brain should have seen the Ellis pelvic injury issue coming. 

Based on the injuries he had had, there was nothing acute pointing to a lingering issue.

One can say small framed man playing hard minutes...that is fair, but again it doesn't leave clues to the issue that kept him on the IR.

Folks all over the interwebs and this forum in particular are using hindsight to admonish a decision made without that "gift".

And IMO aren't remembering this correctly.

 

Second, the price for Ellis wasn't nothing, it was a #2 overall pick with a lot of talent. and a promising 6'5" 230 pound right hand shot defenseman that skates like the wind and had stretches of NHL play where he looked like a top 4 player.

That's not nothing. especially at the time of the trade. 

Now in hindsight those two players haven't worked out for their teams either, but at the time people were upset about Myers especially.

 

 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

And Pronger was 6'6", 220lbs, not 5'10, 180

size is not an accurate way to gauge durability

[SCFlyguy]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I suppose not but only because suffering a career-ending injury is a risk all NHL players take, right? I don't think Pronger was any more susceptible to it than other players, particularly guys who play big minutes. No less either.

Lol, the entire point is don’t sign/trade for ANY guys with that much tread on their tires because chances are it’s going to end in a blowout for one reason or another.

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, SCFlyguy said:

Lol, the entire point is don’t sign/trade for ANY guys with that much tread on their tires because chances are it’s going to end in a blowout for one reason or another.

yeah, cause Im sure is SOO easy to just trade for guys that you approve of

[mojo1917]

18 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Lol, the entire point is don’t sign/trade for ANY guys with that much tread on their tires because chances are it’s going to end in a blowout for one reason or another.

I guess it depends on the guy too.

I think about Zdeno Chara who was still pretty good at 41 years old. 

Think if he had come to the Flyers at 31...that's 7 years of really high level / championship play and then only a modest decline over the next 4.

 

Your point is not invalid, but who can predict when the wheels are going to come off ?

Only in this sport is 30 considered ancient and for defensemen they're just starting to know how to play the position at 25/27 so their effective window is 3 years? 

 

Playing the percentages makes sense sure, but there's no way to know where the end for each individual lies.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by mojo1917

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Think if he had come to the Flyers at 31.

 

Then I guess we'd be talking about Chara's career-ending injury...

 

Poile did give Ellis away in this sense: had Ellis been healthy all year (or the year before) I don't see that trade happening at that price, do you?

 

I take @radoran overall point about Big Name players; it complements what @SCFlyguy. But comparing Pronger's injury history with Ellis' - how much time did each player miss?

 

Pronger played all 82 almost every year (4 of 15 he missed >4 games)*. Playing 82 was his norm. For Ryan Ellis it's the exception. He's missed long stretches nearly ever season (8 out of 11)*.

 

We don't need hindsight to realize that trading for Ellis wasn't such a good idea. The "red flags" @radoranmentioned plus Poile's asking price should've been enough. Could it have worked out great? Sure. But 8 out of 11 odds made it unlikely.

 

*If my count is off by 1 or 2 forgive me it wasn't intentional.

 

[radoran]

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Yes it is but who said that?

 

Not being argumentative, sorry. Your point had been that Pronger's playing history didn't indicate that he'd be likely to be taken down by the type of freak injury that did. That freak injury being analagous to the Mysterious Core Muscle Issue (MCMI) that Ellis' playing history didn't necessarily indicate he'd be taken down by.

 

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Back when the Flyers traded for Chris Pronger I don't remember worrying about his injury history.

 

Around this group there were concerns about his being 34 years old with a lot of hard years on the body. And then they signed him to play until he was 42. Wudder unner da bridge.

 

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Poile practically gave him away. You mentioned his wear and tear as a red flag; Poile's price was another.

 

The Preds were going to need to move salary to be able to have any shot at keeping Forsberg. With Josi and Ekholm, Ellis was expendable. A #2 overall pick "in need of a change of scenery" that you can flip and a "young defenceman with upside" isn't a bad takeaway from a salary dump.

 

Would Poile deliberately screw over the Flyers? The Flyers? These Flyers? These guys? Poile? What? What reason would Poile have to want to screw over the Flyers?

 

 

For the record, I don't think he acted in bad faith. But it smells smoky, like a nice Islay Scotch.

 

The series of questions now are does Ellis play next season? when? how does he play?