Had The Flyers Not Made The Lindros/forsberg Trade....would They Have Another Cup?

[FlyersMKD]

As I said on my first trade, the love for the Flyers came because of Lindros, who was actually traded for Forsberg (the guy I disliked back then)...so out of curiosity, do you guys think it would have been different if that trade never happened.

[flyercanuck]

Well we certainly wouldn't have lost so much depth, so Forsberg would have had more to play with. It's hard to say, but he was one of the greatest. Lindros ended up on a team that had gutted itself to get him. I'd say there was a good chance.

[Flyguys03]

Not without goaltending.

[brelic]

Not without goaltending.

This. Roy made a huge difference. Not sure how Hextall would have turned out if we kept him; maybe he would have regained his rookie form, but we'll never know.

SOmeone on another board also made the point that having Sakic was HUGE for not only Forsberg, but for team leadership as well. We didn't have that here.

[sarsippius]

Well I can tell you this much, it was painful watching the Rags wins a Cup after losing out on the Lindros sweepstakes, and watching the Avs take some of that depth we traded them and winning their own Cup a few years later. So in the end the Flyers appear to be the loser....but I can't say for certain the Flyboys would have won a Cup without the trade being made. Roy was the key to the Avs first Cup, if he hadn't had that falling out with Habs management (demanded a trade after coach failed to pull him from a game in which he got shelled for 7 or 8 goals) the Avs may not have won it all. Agree that Hextall is the X factor in any analysis of would the Flyers have won a Cup, he never recaptured the form of his rookie season, and frankly looked lost in a Nordique then an Islander uniform.

[phlfly]

That's right goalie is almost everything, NJ- Brodeur, Avas- Roy, Red Wing- Hasek,Rags- Richter and more

Flyers had always second hand goalie. I hope Bryzgalov is the one real goalie. So far I didn't see it.

[Mad Dog]

What FG said - not without goaltending, which was crap at the time (sorry Hextall's fans).

[flyercanuck]

That's right goalie is almost everything, NJ- Brodeur, Avas- Roy, Red Wing- Hasek,Rags- Richter and more

Flyers had always second hand goalie. I hope Bryzgalov is the one real goalie. So far I didn't see it.

Sure. There are also Niemi, Osgood, Vernon, Ranford and more who won.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Sure. There are also Niemi, Osgood, Vernon, Ranford and more who won.

personally, I would also add Cam Ward to that list. Hell of a run that postseason, but not much since.

Not a goalie, but everytime I think of Kaberle's name on the Cup, I want to smash my head into a wall..repeatedly. Man, I hate him...always have. It's that Maple Leaf stench.

[Spinorama]

Not without goaltending.

this is one of the few times I scrolled down before answering the question and saw you said what i wanted to say. On top of that, I also wonder what Forsberg would've done with that team. Eric in the early days seemed to carry the team single handedly. When Colorado was winning their cups, they really had a more complete team.

[mojo1917]

This. Roy made a huge difference. Not sure how Hextall would have turned out if we kept him; maybe he would have regained his rookie form, but we'll never know.

SOmeone on another board also made the point that having Sakic was HUGE for not only Forsberg, but for team leadership as well. We didn't have that here.

totally agree with the sakic comment, he was like a stevie y lite....

i'm of the mind that the flyers would have won a cup had that trade not happened, we were building a team that was difficult to play against with brind amour, riccci and the like. i also think that the goal tending situation with hextall would have come to a head sooner and he would have been turned into someone else that would have put the team over the top.

[Dynamo 47]

As I said on my first trade, the love for the Flyers came because of Lindros, who was actually traded for Forsberg (the guy I disliked back then)...so out of curiosity, do you guys think it would have been different if that trade never happened.

No. While we gave up a ton for Lindros, at the time it was a great deal and if the Avs don't acquire Roy they might not have won a Cup either.

The Avs despite having all that talent did not when a Cup with the players in the trade until they acquired Patrick Roy from Montreal. Had the Avs not acquired Roy they might not have won a Cup.

If the Flyers had kept the team intact and the Rangers got him it would have been devastating. There would have been no guarantee the Flyers would have won a Cup as the team NEVER had a history of acquiring that top goaltender to push the team over the top.

Plus look deeper at the trade and the players involved. Some of the key guys - Steve Duschene and Mike Ricci. Duschene played one season with the then Nordiques and was gone. Ricci while he had a nice career did not do anything spectacular. Kerry Hoffman played one season with the Nordiques. Ron Hextall did not last there either. The one player I hated to see included was Chris Simon as he had Flyer written all over him.

But when you break it down, the players who had an impact and contributed to the Avs Cup were Forsberg, Ricci, and Simon. To me, Forsberg and Lindros cancel each other out. Rod Brindamour was better then Ricci so we have an edge there.

Bottom line is that if the Avs didn't acquire Roy, they like the Flyers might have been good but might never have one a Cup.

The Flyers with Forsberg, Ricci, Simon, Duschene, Hexy might have contended but again without a stud goalie, we might not have even gotten to the finals.

[Green Man]

Not unless Patrick Roy shows up. Forsberg was a part of those Avalanche cups, not the main reason.

[Lindbergh31]

Like others have posted, the Avs don't win the cups without Patrick Roy. The Flyers gave a lot to get Lindros and still might have won a cup with him if Clarke would have gone out and got a goalie. Hextall was never the same goalie after his rookie year, he put up good numbers in the regular season but always seem to faulter in the playoffs by letting in bad goals at the wrong time. When Vanbriesbrouck and Curtis Joseph were free agents, Clarke decided to go the cheap route and sign Beezer who played for him in Florida. I believe Joseph would have been better for Lindros and the Flyers at that time because they could have played a more free style of play and counted on the goalie to make the big save when needed. But I guess we'll never know. As for the Lindros trade, most of the players the Flyers traded away didn't go on to have great careers but having to give up Chris Simon and another 1st rounder did hurt. Simon would have looked awesome in a Philly uniform.

[Vanflyer]

SOmeone on another board also made the point that having Sakic was HUGE for not only Forsberg, but for team leadership as well. We didn't have that here.

The point about sakic is extremely valid. For me it is very hard to compare. As pointed out, the Flyers were gutted. Yet Colorado (Quebec), not only had our players / picks / cash, but also had Sakic and others than enabled them to get other pieces.

Imagine if you will if the Flyers had Sakic before the trade and retained him. No pressure for big E to be the leader and also to be the top centerman.

As great a talent as Forsberg was, he has allot of thanks going to sakic- who was a stud (and perhaps the best wrist shot in the league for 10 years). Colorado was able to roll two to three lines (don't our nemesis Claude Lemieux were there too). Ricci was there from us and Chris Simon. Add to that a young Sanids Ozolinch, Adam Foote, Adam Deadmarsh, Mike Keanne and of course Patrick Roy.

Interestingly, The Flyers were a really good team that year. But short of the right pieces. Hextall played very well in the playoffs, but the opposition found a way to shut down the Flyers Legion line and they were one and done.

As an aside, I read on another post the other day that Ricci was taken 4th overall by the Flyers in the 1990 draft. Guess who was taken 5th: Jaromir Jagr!!!

I loved Ricci as a heart and soul third line guy- but man was that a bad pick. Even as selfish as Jaromir was, could you imagine him with Lindros and Leclair? Then you have Renberg on the second line playing with Brind'A mor. That might have gotten us a cup right there (assuming that Jagr would not have been part of the trade to get Lindros).

Derien Hatcher went #8 that year.

[Vanflyer]

What FG said - not without goaltending, which was crap at the time (sorry Hextall's fans).

The year that Colorado won the cup, hexy played a fine year. He was 31w / 13 L / 7 ties. GAA 2.17 and sv pctg .913. The problem was that he was having problems with his groin, but his play was better than crap. His back-up, Garth Snow was crap.

We beat Tampa in 6 games in the Quarter finals and then played the Panthers in the conference Semis (the eventual conference winners). We were up 2-1 after the first 3 against Florida. Game 4 we lost in OT 3-4 in Florida and Game 5 we lost in double OT 2-1 in Philly. The 6th game was a 4-1 loss.

Florida went on to win the conference in 7 games against the Penguins.

[flyercanuck]

The point about sakic is extremely valid. For me it is very hard to compare. As pointed out, the Flyers were gutted. Yet Colorado (Quebec), not only had our players / picks / cash, but also had Sakic and others than enabled them to get other pieces.

Imagine if you will if the Flyers had Sakic before the trade and retained him. No pressure for big E to be the leader and also to be the top centerman.

As great a talent as Forsberg was, he has allot of thanks going to sakic- who was a stud (and perhaps the best wrist shot in the league for 10 years). Colorado was able to roll two to three lines (don't our nemesis Claude Lemieux were there too). Ricci was there from us and Chris Simon. Add to that a young Sanids Ozolinch, Adam Foote, Adam Deadmarsh, Mike Keanne and of course Patrick Roy.

Interestingly, The Flyers were a really good team that year. But short of the right pieces. Hextall played very well in the playoffs, but the opposition found a way to shut down the Flyers Legion line and they were one and done.

As an aside, I read on another post the other day that Ricci was taken 4th overall by the Flyers in the 1990 draft. Guess who was taken 5th: Jaromir Jagr!!!

I loved Ricci as a heart and soul third line guy- but man was that a bad pick. Even as selfish as Jaromir was, could you imagine him with Lindros and Leclair? Then you have Renberg on the second line playing with Brind'A mor. That might have gotten us a cup right there (assuming that Jagr would not have been part of the trade to get Lindros).

Derien Hatcher went #8 that year.

Ya, other than Forsberg, we didn't really give away anything great. But what we did give away was our depth. And picks. Pretty hard to reload the cupboard after that.

Ricci would have went 1st overall the year before, if he was a year older. He was considered to be Clarke-like coming out of junior. And hey, at least we didn't pick Primeau before that. Or Nedved before that.

[OH1FlyersFan]

Hmmm....trading a glass jaw for a glass foot. j/k. All things being equal, could we have won with just Forsberg? I'll echo what some others have already said. I'd also say we would have had a very good chance of winning a Cup. Because it wasn't just Forsberg that went in that trade. We lost Forsberg, Mike Ricci, Ron Hextall (although he came back), Chris Simon, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, two first-round picks and $15 million. In my opinion, that's a pretty huge payout for what we got in return - and that's without the benefit of hindsight, knowing how things turned out. The two first round picks alone are worth their weight in gold. But then we have a tendency to trade first round picks like Carter pops liver pills. While Lindros had some great seasons for the Flyers, especially 95-96 and 98-99, he just couldn't manage to do it by himself and it was unrealistic to expect that. They tried to build the team around one guy and it just didn't work. Sounds kinda familiar. That's why I don't like putting all your eggs in one basket. We have a really good mix on this Flyers team now and I think that makes us more competitive and likely to win a Cup than if we had "The" guy. We're positioned better now than at any time during the 90's. That's why we have to be careful doling out those huge, long-term contracts to guys like Bryz and even Pronger.

[idahophilly]

I was trying to figure out for a moment why Jeff carter was popping liver pills... Jimmy Carter... However, his presidency was kinda like Jeff's legacy for the Flyers... Forgetable.

[spacin007]

Not without goaltending.

This x 1,000