Lavy out, Berube in

[canoli]

oh lord if we're like the Bills we're in seriously deep doo-doo.

[radoran]

haha...oh TK - but that's exactly what I'm trying to say - get over it, or get used to it.

 

I mean seriously folks if you hate the "good ol' boys network" and the freewheelin' style GMing then find another team to root for because for better or worse - and I've always argued it's for the better compared to most NHL teams - it isn't going to change.

 

oh lord if we're like the Bills we're in seriously deep doo-doo.

 

Well, the difference is that the Flyers generally make the playoffs. So, it's for "the better compared to most NHL teams" and is certainly different from the Bills in that manner.

 

But 1964 and 1965 are still up on the big sign at the Ralph and you still hear "wide right" and how the Bills went to four Super Bowls just like Philly fans know about 1974 and 1975, who "Leon Stickle" is and how many Finals appearances the Flyers have made.

[The Quigster]

I like seeing "Chief" at the front of the canoe,helping the underperforming members of the Flyers gain new perspective to the game of hockey. My only negative is why Homer waited so long to make the move.

[canoli]

I guess you can look at the history, then look at where we are now and conclude it's a sad state of affairs. But I've enjoyed every season since I started watching the Flyers as a kid in the 70s (with a few exceptions, like last year's half-season). But what's wrong with celebrating 4 SB runs? What's wrong with pride in the team's accomplishments even if they are ancient history? You know at "the Joe" they've got all the banners hanging from way back when, at the Montreal Forum, at the Igloo and even at the Spectrum. (name-changes notwithstanding)

 

I just can't get too riled up about what Snider does or doesn't do. It's easy to say "it hasn't worked in 40 years" but don't you have to compare their results to the rest of the NHL? Haven't the Flyers done better than almost every other NHL team since '67 - meaning more PO appearances, more Conference and Final appearances? Correct me if I'm wrong - and I know you will but that has to count for something doesm't it? Don't you have to factor those results in when you're criticizing the owner? Or is it always Cup or Bust?

[radoran]

I guess you can look at the history, then look at where we are now and conclude it's a sad state of affairs. But I've enjoyed every season since I started watching the Flyers as a kid in the 70s (with a few exceptions, like last year's half-season). But what's wrong with celebrating 4 SB runs? What's wrong with pride in the team's accomplishments even if they are ancient history? You know at "the Joe" they've got all the banners hanging from way back when, at the Montreal Forum, at the Igloo and even at the Spectrum. (name-changes notwithstanding)

 

I just can't get too riled up about what Snider does or doesn't do. It's easy to say "it hasn't worked in 40 years" but don't you have to compare their results to the rest of the NHL? Haven't the Flyers done better than almost every other NHL team since '67 - meaning more PO appearances, more Conference and Final appearances? Correct me if I'm wrong - and I know you will but that has to count for something doesm't it? Don't you have to factor those results in when you're criticizing the owner? Or is it always Cup or Bust?

 

You are, of course, talking to the person who took that exact line in the "what makes a successful franchise" discussion.

 

And who just said this:

 

Well, the difference is that the Flyers generally make the playoffs. So, it's for "the better compared to most NHL teams" and is certainly different from the Bills in that manner.

 

One can be a fan of a team and have no confidence in the people running said franchise.

 

Again - rooting for the crest on the front, not the names on the letterhead.

 

Of course "it counts for something" but the team itself says it's goal is to win the Stanley Cup. It has failed in that goal consistently. Perhaps the plan to achieve the goal should be re-evaluated?

 

Six appearances since 1975. Two in the past 26 years. One since 1997.

 

Who's made those appearances?

Shero - 1

Keenan - 1

Quinn - 2

Murray - 1

Laviolette - 1

 

Five of the six are from coaches who came in from outside "the organization." The sixth one they fired immediately after he got them to the Final. Took them 13 years to get back. Three years later, there are four players on the team from that Cup Final.

 

Six Finals since 1975. Two in the past 26 years. 1 since 1997.

 

There seems to be a clear set of diminishing returns on the plan. For "a businessman" that's an indication that some re-evaluation might be in order.

 

For the Flyers? Nothing to see here. Nothing to change (except the coach, or the goalie, or the coach, or the goalie...). Everything's fine.

[canoli]

interesting. Those *are* some pretty stark numbers - at least they look stark laid out that way. I don't know how many have done it better though...offhand I would bet we're in the top of the class, no? The Devils have won the Cup more, the Wings, the Pens...a few others. But the Flyers really have nothing to be ashamed of in the Cup-pursuit department do they?

 

But I gotta hand it to you, those numbers - next to the coaches names - it makes a compelling presentation. I mean it.

 

Perhaps you can forward that to Mr. Snider somehow? lol....might be time he reviews it.

 

edit: hey how come the Fog only gets 1? um didn't he win it twice? or has my entire memory been hacked the last 40 years? oh wait, okay, you did say "since '75. very tricky of you!

Edited October 8, 2013 by canoli

[Polaris922]

There is ONE Cup winner every year.  ONE name that goes into the record books.  ONE team that can say they were the winners.  ONE celebration everyone wants to have.  ONE true parade.  ONE .....  playoff appearances?  Conference Finals?  Nice... really... but just as my Pens were last year... no matter how well you play in the regular season, no matter how far you go into the playoffs... no matter how many years you make that run...  if you weren't number ONE...  you were a loser.  Nobody is playing for second place. 

[canoli]

Right. Only one team per year wins the Cup. Thank you. That's so simple it's brilliant  - lol! (just breaking yer balls a little)

 

but when you're evaluating your team, its management over the years, the results they've produced...who would you rather be the Flyers / Pens or the Panthers?

 

Flyers/Pens or ___________

 

that blank represents probably 25 other teams right? So me I can't summon the disgust or hatred (or whatever you wanna call it) for Ed and Co. that's on display here yesterday and today. Yes it's "good ol' boys" and it's "fly-by-wire" but it has produced better results than ... ? ... 50%, 60? 75% of the rest of the NHL. Granted - obviously - NOTHING replaces a Cup win. But winning the Cup is not the only measuring stick to use when looking at a team. Not for me anyway. But I respect and understand Flyers' fans who say it is. It's been an awfully long time between parades...

[radoran]

There is ONE Cup winner every year.  ONE name that goes into the record books.  ONE team that can say they were the winners.  ONE celebration everyone wants to have.  ONE true parade.  ONE .....  playoff appearances?  Conference Finals?  Nice... really... but just as my Pens were last year... no matter how well you play in the regular season, no matter how far you go into the playoffs... no matter how many years you make that run...  if you weren't number ONE...  you were a loser.  Nobody is playing for second place. 

 

To that point, I'll wager that Snider would rather have the Pens' 2009 Cup than the Flyers' 2010 Finals appearance.

[Poulin20]

 

 

Who's made those appearances?

Shero - 1

Keenan - 1

Quinn - 2

Murray - 1

Laviolette - 1

 

.

 

Just a technichal point here but Keenan is being short changed 1.  Remember 1985 and 1987 SCFs for Keenan , I think that Pat Quinn stole 1 of Iron Mike's.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Poulin20

[aziz]

But remind yourself - or understand (whatever the case may be) where Snider is coming from. Instead of pretending Flyers' fans "deserve" a change at the top try to realize that the Flyers are Ed's - they're his, he owns them and not just literally but figuratively - no that's not the right word - existentially? spiritually? I don't know the word but what I mean is they are his, they're his baby and he will never let them go. I'm sure he sees it as a Father/Son relationship in his mind.

And that is all fair and true, but... I'm suddenly not entirely comfortable being invested in the status of someone else's toy. Hoping the Flyers figure things out suddenly feels like hoping Ed Snider gets an ECU upgrade for his porsche so he can have the best Sunday drive possible. Why do I care how his toy is doing?

Obviously, it is what it is, it is what it's always been, it is what it is everywhere. To really throw that in the fans' faces, though, to make decisions and statements that blur the illusion that a hockey team is something more than a particular rich guy's hobby.... To be a fan is to willingly fool yourself into feeling like it's "my team". When the owner stands up and says, "no, actually, it's MY team," I feel a little silly wearing a hat with a picture of Ed Snider's porsche on the front.

[brelic]

To that point, I'll wager that Snider would rather have the Pens' 2009 Cup than the Flyers' 2010 Finals appearance.

Including the years and years of futility that preceded it?

[radoran]

Just a technichal point here but Keenan is being short changed 1.  Remember 1985 and 1987 SCFs for Keenan , I think that Pat Quinn stole 1 of Iron Mike's.

 

Read the dates wrong flipping between tabs

[Polaris922]

@canoli

 

I understand your angle, but the simple litmus test for it is this.... at the end of the season, when the team hasn't won, how do you feel?  Regardless of where the exit is... you feel like crap.  

 

There are many successful franchises out there.  Many teams that support their communities and reap rewards in the form of millions of dollars in income.  They are successful.  BUT the goal is to be the winner... not just look pretty.  

[canoli]

And that is all fair and true, but... I'm suddenly not entirely comfortable being invested in the status of someone else's toy. Hoping the Flyers figure things out suddenly feels like hoping Ed Snider gets an ECU upgrade for his porsche so he can have the best Sunday drive possible. Why do I care how his toy is doing?

Obviously, it is what it is, it is what it's always been, it is what it is everywhere. To really throw that in the fans' faces, though, to make decisions and statements that blur the illusion that a hockey team is something more than a particular rich guy's hobby.... To be a fan is to willingly fool yourself into feeling like it's "my team". When the owner stands up and says, "no, actually, it's MY team," I feel a little silly wearing a hat with a picture of Ed Snider's porsche on the front.

 

 

Well you say it yourself - "to be a fan is to willingly fool yourself..."

 

There's no comfort in a "welcome to life my friend" cliché but that's all there is. We buy entertainment and honestly it wouldn't matter to me if the Flyers were owned by a tribe in Zimbabwe as long as they put a watchable product on the ice.

 

Where it gets really sad (and morally reprehensible imo, even criminal) is when these same owners go crying to city/state/county governments demanding taxpayer money, claiming they can't invest in a new arena (stadium, whatever) without it. But that's a whole different topic I guess.

[radoran]

Where it gets really sad (and morally reprehensible imo, even criminal) is when these same owners go crying to city/state/county governments demanding taxpayer money, claiming they can't invest in a new arena (stadium, whatever) without it. But that's a whole different topic I guess.

 

You do, I do, everyone does have to give Ed all the credit in the world for how he handled that situation.

 

He built the Spectrum. He built the Big Bank Building (City did site prep to remove JFK stadium and gave him the land and parking concession).

 

Say what you will about Ed - and I do - he hasn't been suckling the government teat that much.

[canoli]

Regardless of where the exit is... you feel like crap.

 

well...I don't. Honestly. Sure I'm bummed out when we're up 3 to nothing on you fkrs and Carcillo decides to take matters into his own hands...and the beginning of the end becomes obvious for the Flyers. Or when Leighton / Boosh get us THISCLOSE and create a sports "miracle" in the process...and then Leighton lets in an 89-degree angle shot to crush the dream of Cup glory. Bummed out, pissed off, disgusted. It lasts for a little while. But what I never do is go around saying "my team SUCKS! this fkng managment, this clown owner...what a jerk! He can't win us the Cup since '75! what a loser!"

 

[edit: i hasten to add not all Flyers' fans are bitchin about Ed. Some are, and I get it. Frustration sets in, it's been a long damn time since the Flyers have won the Cup. But I guess I'm in the minority here - I just don't feel abused or rotten in any way when we don't win it. I celebrate the fact we've come closer than most and I'm hopeful always that This Could Be The Year! Maybe I'm deluding myself, maybe you guys are just that much smarter than me. But I kinda enjoy being hopeful more than pissed off, esp about stuff I can't even begin to control ]

Edited October 8, 2013 by canoli

[Polaris922]

Bummed out, pissed off, disgusted. It lasts for a little while.

 

You just agreed with me that you do.  I didn't say you hated them for the rest of your days... just that you feel like crap about it ending.   LOL  

[canoli]

ha! Okay I got ya. Can't deny that...

[Mad Dog]

I'm not really thrilled with Berube, but I actually think the above is a bit overblown. I don't really need unpredictable schemes or changing on the fly or different tactics.

It is probably overblown if looking at the way I presented it.  But I have to admit I have a sweet spot for coaches who are methodical and flexible, who feel the game and know how to adjust.  As someone who played (of course nowhere near the NHL level, but still played), I know that simply demanding respect and asking players to work as a team, while certainly commendable, will only get the team so far.  And God knows, the Flyers didn't have a shortage of these type of coaches.

 

It used to drive me absolutely insane how just about every game and every shift John Stevens used exactly the same approach, without fail.  It was almost comical at one point.  No matter what the score is - whether during the game or in the playoff series - the guy was totally incapable to adjust, to change some things.  I mean at least TRY.  Bill Barber same deal.  Craig Ramsey (can never forget that New Jersey conference finals).

 

Berube may be completely different.  We simply have no idea.  And I get that.  I will give the guy a chance.  He may surprise me.  But my point is I hope he is coming to the table with more than just "work as a team", "being disciplined" and "play for each other" rhetoric... because all this sounds awfully familiar.  And after a while, it starts getting old a little.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Mad Dog

[ruxpin]

It used to drive me absolutely insane how just about every game and every shift John Stevens used exactly the same approach, without fail. It was almost comical at one point. No matter what the score is - whether during the game or in the playoff series - the guys was totally incapable to adjust, to change some things. I mean at least TRY. Bill Barber same deal. Craig Ramsey (can never forget that New Jersey conference finals

Okay, yeah. In that context I'm on board. I remember those things and remember talking about it with you and agreeing at the time (the Stevens part anyway). I still do. Barber, in particular, drove me nuts with this. I guess time will tell what we have with Berube.

In the meantime, even just lines that make some semblance of sense will be an improvement.

[mojo1917]

I think from the sound bites I've heard from chief is we'll see a more defense first oriented " system". I'm pretty sure the 20 minutes a night of the "scoring lines " keystone copping around their defensive zone make him more nuts than it does us. I think we'll see that and the breakout improve by mid November, I also think having Paddock on the bench with him is a plus, he was a good tactician in his Hershey days and is a good "hockey man" to have around as a sounding board.