COMBINED: "Whither or Not Vinny"

[Polaris922]

My point was that by signing the Flyers offer sheet, Weber gave up a lot of leverage he would have had if he had waiting to become a free agent. Which Poile could not have stopped him from doing if that's what Weber wanted to do. He could have picked his team (obviously there would have been a lot of interest) and he almost certainly would have gotten a NTC. He lost a lot of leverage in deciding where he would be playing in the future.

I wasn't suggesting that Poile gained any leverage in the negotiations, obviously he didn't. However, while the contract may have seemed crazy at the time it works out very well for Nashville, they've already payed a big chunk of all the money he's owed, and that combined with the lack of a NTC would make it very easy to trade him if for some reason they wanted to.

I guess I see it differently. You're absolutely right about the NTC, but I think he DID have the choice just the same as a free agent. He chose to sign the offer sheet. And with the money offered I don't think he could've done any better. Free agency wouldn't have brought any more than he got. And it left Nashville in a pay or die situation.

Regardless... I think it remains relevant. They won't do Philly any favors. To strike a deal its going to have to favor the Preds.

[King Knut]

Unless he got concussed in that one season like Pronger and could never play again.

Dude got a huge payday for the next 13 years. How's that a bad decision? Safe call if you ask me.

I would have to disagree. If I remember correctly Weber could have waited one year and then become an unrestricted free agent. At that point he really would have had all the leverage. But when he signed the Flyers offer sheet he basically agreed to play the bulk of his career for one of two teams, the Flyers or Nashville. And he didn't get a NMC/NTC so Nashville can trade him anywhere they want to. From the POV of what was in Weber's best interest, I think he was kind of dumb to sign the offer sheet.

[Lindbergh31]

I do think it matters. Poile wasn't playing hardball with Weber, they were in negotiations when Holmgren through a crazy contract offer in. That blew up Poile's negotiating power and gave Weber ALL of the leverage. To Nashville's credit, they matched it.

As for hurting his team, Poile would make a move that benefits the Preds if the Flyers offered one, but I don't see one to be had here. Lecavalier didn't have a top six year last year, and that's what the Preds need. Not a bottom six guy getting top six money. Where does that help the Preds? And I think the Weber offer sheet DOES taint Poile's willingness to roll the dice on something just to help the Flyers out. Without that history, MAYBE Poile is more inclined to say "well lets see what he can do here. Remember you owe us one though" for future dealings. You're not gonna see that now. And yes it gets done that way. Right here though it won't be.

I don't agree, the thing that everybody seems to forget is no one was holding a gun to Weber's head when HE signed the offer sheet from the Flyers. There is no doubt that Weber felt slighted when he seen the contract that Suter got and figured if Nashville wasn't going to offer a similar one that if another team did he'd sign the offer sheet. Weber didn't show any loyalty to Nashville he was going for the money and he didn't care if he ended up in Philly or back in Nashville as long as he got the contract that he thought he deserved. Besides Weber's camp realized if he signed an one year deal with Nashville and went to UFA, the max contract he would have gotten was 7 years with another team or 8 years with Nashville because of the new cba.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Lindbergh31

[jammer2]

I don't agree, the thing that everybody seems to forget is Poile didn't lock Weber up before free agent period started and no one was holding a gun to Weber's head when HE signed the offer sheet from the Flyers. There is no doubt that Weber felt slighted when he seen the contract that Suter got and figured if Nashville wasn't going to offer a similar one that if another team did he'd sign the offer sheet. Weber didn't show any loyalty to Nashville he was going for the money and he didn't care if he ended up in Philly or back in Nashville as long as he got the contract that he thought he deserved.

 

 Yes, if you want to set your own rules and salary, sign the guy up before he goes RFA. I'm thinking the Preds tried, and Weber's agent would not budge, knowing that somebody would pull a move like the Flyers tried. Who knows, maybe Weber's agent wired the Flyers a few mill to a off shore account, for their *help*.

[Lindbergh31]

 Yes, if you want to set your own rules and salary, sign the guy up before he goes RFA. I'm thinking the Preds tried, and Weber's agent would not budge, knowing that somebody would pull a move like the Flyers tried. Who knows, maybe Weber's agent wired the Flyers a few mill to a off shore account, for their *help*.

lol, I think Weber's agent felt like Weber deserved a contract similar to Ryan Suter.

[Polaris922]

@Lindbergh31

@jammer2

The idea that Nashville APPRECIATES this is ridiculous. And it IS an unwritten rule not to offer sheet another twam's star players. There are plenty of write ups on how that IS still the code amongst GM's.

Was it within the rules? Absolutely. Did it still piss off Poile? Absolutely. This wasn't doing the Preds a favor. It was throwing crazy money at someone they may have been able to sign for a decent amount less.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  In the end, it was a big win for the Flyers. They took their shot at one of the games greats, still have 28 other teams they can deal with and greatly affected the cap of an opponent, even if it was a Western team. I'm sure the opposing GM's in the Preds division watched this Flyer maneuver with a bit of a smirk.

[doom88]

@Lindbergh31

@jammer2

The idea that Nashville APPRECIATES this is ridiculous. And it IS an unwritten rule not to offer sheet another twam's star players. There are plenty of write ups on how that IS still the code amongst GM's.

Was it within the rules? Absolutely. Did it still piss off Poile? Absolutely. This wasn't doing the Preds a favor. It was throwing crazy money at someone they may have been able to sign for a decent amount less.

Stop making sense, I hate agreeing with you.

[Lindbergh31]

@Lindbergh31

@jammer2

The idea that Nashville APPRECIATES this is ridiculous. And it IS an unwritten rule not to offer sheet another twam's star players. There are plenty of write ups on how that IS still the code amongst GM's.

Was it within the rules? Absolutely. Did it still piss off Poile? Absolutely. This wasn't doing the Preds a favor. It was throwing crazy money at someone they may have been able to sign for a decent amount less.

Come on Polaris922, you can't tell me that Pens fans wouldn't be sitting back smiling if someone had given Giroux an offer sheet to force the Flyers' hand if the same situation came up. This code amongst GMs is bullshit too because each GM is trying to win a cup with their team no matter how they do it. Bottom line it forced Nashville's hand to put up or shut up or take the picks. Holmgren tried to make a trade with Poile but they couldn't agree because Poile was talking to other teams at the same time trying to drum up the price for Weber (which he should), so Holmgren used something that was legal to even the playing field with Poile but also eliminate the other teams who were trying to trade for Weber. Every GM has screwed other gms in trades over the years so if Poile is going to hold a grudge then maybe he should go cry to his mom, either that or go put his big boy pants on. As for Lecavalier situation, no GM in their right mind is going to help out Hextall and the Flyers, they all smell blood and a chance to take advantage of the situation but Hextall for now isn't going to be stupid and give in to these demands. He'll start the season with VLC in Philly and go from there which is smart and wait and see if something comes up to move VLC.

[Polaris922]

@jammer2

Was it? A team who'd traded with you regularly to benefit both sides, but bringing you Timonen, Hartnell, Upshall, and a first round pick through the years is the one Holmgren screws with? A team that took an aging ailing overpaid Forsberg and overpaid for him? A team that right now could absorb VLC's contract easily under their cap and again foster that relationship? But alienating that team that you would only see in the Stanley Cup finals was a win for Philly?

The only ones smirking are Penguins fans.

@Lindbergh31

I'd agree if he'd done it to the Pens or Rags... Or even a conference opponent. But honestly the team he did it to was a partner in trades. And what if he's just kept the trade talks open? Called Poile again asking what it would take? Or waited a year till Weber was a free agent. Expressed his interest in seriously acquiring him when that day came and willingness to spend big $? Perfectly legal negotiations. What if he hadn't tried forcing it and giving Poile the chance to call?

I seriously think Weber would be in black and orange. Thank you Paul Holmgren.

@doom88

Sorry bud! I just see this as a clear strike out by Holmgren. Swing for the fences though no doubt.

[flyercanuck]

@Lindbergh31

@jammer2

The idea that Nashville APPRECIATES this is ridiculous. And it IS an unwritten rule not to offer sheet another twam's star players. There are plenty of write ups on how that IS still the code amongst GM's.

Was it within the rules? Absolutely. Did it still piss off Poile? Absolutely. This wasn't doing the Preds a favor. It was throwing crazy money at someone they may have been able to sign for a decent amount less.

 

 It's an unwritten rule that has been done 35 times by about half the teams in the league. Not exactly the "taboo" thing it's made out to be.

 

 And if a gm thinks there's a deal to be made from any team in the league that helps his team, he should make it or be fired. Fans always say there'll be hell to pay when someone offsheets a player on their team....and there never is. St. Louis has signed more players to offersheets than anyone else. They still make plenty of transactions with other teams, and they seem to be doing alright.

[Polaris922]

It's an unwritten rule that has been done 35 times by about half the teams in the league. Not exactly the "taboo" thing it's made out to be.

And if a gm thinks there's a deal to be made from any team in the league that helps his team, he should make it or be fired. Fans always say there'll be hell to pay when someone offsheets a player on their team....and there never is. St. Louis has signed more players to offersheets than anyone else. They still make plenty of transactions with other teams, and they seem to be doing alright.

35 times out of thirty teams and literally thousands of opportunities. So all of the writers and GM's quoted as saying it's bad business are lying? And I never said Poile wouldn't improve his Club, but he's made bad trades with the Flyers in the past where you can almost hear the "remember I did this for you" with it. And you're not going to see that anymore. Package Vinny in a way that the Preds win the deal and he does it. But he won't be doing any favors for future considerations after that. Business is business, but GM's often do one another small favors for future consideration. I just don't think you'll see that from Poile again. A definite gaffe by Holmgren. To deny that is to view through blinders.

[JackStraw]

A team who'd traded with you regularly to benefit both sides, but bringing you Timonen, Hartnell, Upshall, and a first round pick through the years is the one Holmgren screws with?

They were going to lose Timonen and Hartnell to free agency. They traded their rights and got back the 1st round pick they gave the Flyers for Forsberg. Essentially they got Forsberg for two guys they were going to lose anyway. That's not exactly doing the Flyers a favor, even though it worked out very well.

Edited July 26, 2014 by JackStraw

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 Sure it isn't common, but it's been done plenty of times. 35 isn't once or twice.

 

 Pretty much every single trade ever made by a gm is because he thinks it's for the good of his team. It doesn't always work out that way, but I doubt many deals are done with a 'this should really help YOU out" mentality. 

[Polaris922]

@JackStraw

I didn't say that he gave you gifts, it was that you had a good relationship with a successful trade partner.

@flyercanuck

Deals are frequently made with one side conceding a little to the other. Beneficial to both but maybe a little tilted and considerations down the road to return the favor.

The Lecavalier deal could be just such a deal. Would it benefit the Predators? It MIGHT if VLC rebounds a little. Would it benefit the Flyers? Absolutely. That's a risk Poile might be more inclined to take if he feels the Flyers might consider his taking the risk in the future.

And don't kid yourself into thinking that kind of stuff doesn't happen. There were a few deals between the Pens and Whalers that clearly benefitted the Pens more, and now look who's GM? Relationships matter. In business as well as most other facets in life.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 We already knew the league does it's best to help the Pens out. 

[mojo1917]

The thought that Poile " took Forsberg off the Flyer hands" is flat out ridiculous .

The Preds were playing well that year, a lock for the playoffs and were looking to add scoring for the tournament.

Forsberg fit the need.

There was no charity in that deal.

[LegionOfDoom]

I'm wondering how much Snider had a say in this orDeal, was he in the office saying, "Do what you must...then come back to me with the news" or (slamming both fist on the large executive cherry table, shaking all the paperwork)"Get Him!...GET HIMMM!!! And don't show your face around these parts until you do! Don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out".

[jammer2]

The thought that Poile " took Forsberg off the Flyer hands" is flat out ridiculous .

The Preds were playing well that year, a lock for the playoffs and were looking to add scoring for the tournament.

Forsberg fit the need.

There was no charity in that deal.

 

 Yep, the Preds were gonna lose Kimo and Harts to UFA, so they sold off their assets and got Forsberg for the playoffs, no favours done here, they were gonna outright lose those guys, and they got a world class player for the playoffs. You can bet Poile did his due diligence on this deal, and the Flyers deal was the best one proposed.

[Polaris922]

Once again the focus isn't on any one deal... It's on a relationship that was built by these transactions that helped BOTH clubs. But that relationship is a bit tarnished now I'd say. That's the point. I'm not debating the individual merits of any one exchange. I'm debating the impact the Weber offer sheet has had.

[Lindbergh31]

Once again the focus isn't on any one deal... It's on a relationship that was built by these transactions that helped BOTH clubs. But that relationship is a bit tarnished now I'd say. That's the point. I'm not debating the individual merits of any one exchange. I'm debating the impact the Weber offer sheet has had.

I understand what you're saying but Holmgren is no longer the GM of the Flyers so whatever bitterness Poile has towards him should die and he can build a trading relationship with Hextall. If Poile is going to hold a grudge against the Flyers then that's his choice but it would be pretty childless.

[Polaris922]

I understand what you're saying but Holmgren is no longer the GM of the Flyers so whatever bitterness Poile has towards him should die and he can build a trading relationship with Hextall. If Poile is going to hold a grudge against the Flyers then that's his choice but it would be pretty childless.

Childish or standing on principles? Matter of perspective.

[radoran]

 Yep, the Preds were gonna lose Kimo and Harts to UFA, so they sold off their assets and got Forsberg for the playoffs, no favours done here, they were gonna outright lose those guys, and they got a world class player for the playoffs. You can bet Poile did his due diligence on this deal, and the Flyers deal was the best one proposed.

 

Not exactly how it happened - Timonen and Hartnell were on that playoff run and it was one of the moves designed to get both to stay in Nashville.

 

After the season, they sent the pick back to Nashville for the rights to talk to both players exclusively. If that deal works out as Polie hoped, Timonen and Hartnell stay in Nashville and never become Flyers.

 

The reason VLC is still a Flyer, by all accounts I have read from legitimate places, is that the Flyers won't retain enough salary to satisfy demand.

 

If the Flyers would retain enough salary to make it a good enough deal, any GM, be it Polie or anyone, takes them up on it.

 

That said Polie might want a little more than the average.

[OccamsRazor]

 Yep, the Preds were gonna lose Kimo and Harts to UFA, so they sold off their assets and got Forsberg for the playoffs, no favours done here, they were gonna outright lose those guys, and they got a world class player for the playoffs

 

But those were two separate trades. Hartnell and Kimmo were traded for a 1st rounder after the season.

 

Forsberg was a trade deadline deal that brought Upshall and Norris trophy candidate Parent to town for a playoff run. The Norris comment was a joke by the way.

 

But yes no favor done by the Preds.

 

Edit: While i was typing my post Rad posted the same as i was going for except did a better job saying it.

Edited July 27, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[aziz]

Childish or standing on principles? Matter of perspective.

 

what principles?  thou shall not send offersheets to highly prized but underbid RFAs?  35 offersheets sent over 28 years of the concept, it isn't the rarest of all birds.  

 

again, if nashville sees a deal in front of them that helps them out and they refuse it because of some petulant "they were jerks two years ago", then they deserve whatever they get.  in this case, what they get (and deserve) is a malformed team that is equally poorly built as the penguins, but in the opposite (read: defensive) direction, and minus one generational talent.  the penguins make the playoffs and flame out hard; nashville doesn't even get as far. 

 

if nashville goes into next season as they currently stand, they will be overpowered on a nightly basis as they always have.  VLC might not be an absolute cure for that, but he would be medicine that would contain the disease a little.  if poile lets his ruffled feathers get in the way of fixing that, it is more nashville's problem than it is philly's.  VLC doesn't represent an actual weak spot for the flyers right now.  he isn't a great fit, but he is definitely a first-world style issue.  not being able to score goals is a door-closing problem for the predators, however.  neal is useless without a center, and if someone thinks ribeiro is an answer......

Edited July 27, 2014 by aziz