murraycraven Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 It makes all the sense in the world the Preds would not want to deal with the Flyers. Home gambled and went all in for Weber then lost out on the Suter/Parise sweepstakes and absolutley had not backup plan. This is why the defense is in the shape it is in... it was a patchwork Plan B that simply has not worked out. This is why we have Streit and MacD in the lineup... I think the mention of signing MacD to an "underserving contract" is a funny mention as well. As for MacD I expect very good things for the $ Homer handed over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertaflyer Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Eff the Preds it's what they get by playing hardball with Weber now they have the boatanchor contract....they deserve it. Totally agree. If I remember correctly Weber was pretty insulted by the Predators offer. His agent did what the system allows you to do. I find it hard to fault the Flyers in this situation. Their was no rules broken. The Predators knew what could happen if he made it to RFA and it did. The Flyers weren't the only team lining up with an offer sheet. Thiers just happened to be the best. So if I read this article correctly it suggests that a team will not deal with another team even if makes them better out of revenge. I would really question my GM if that was the case. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Totally agree. If I remember correctly Weber was pretty insulted by the Predators offer. His agent did what the system allows you to do. I find it hard to fault the Flyers in this situation. Their was no rules broken. The Predators knew what could happen if he made it to RFA and it did. The Flyers weren't the only team lining up with an offer sheet. Thiers just happened to be the best. So if I read this article correctly it suggests that a team will not deal with another team even if makes them better out of revenge. I would really question my GM if that was the case. I agree... there were no rules broken and the Flyers played it accordingly. The only thing I look at why would the Preds want to do the Flyers a solid by taking on a very overpaid Center that is on the decline? I would laugh too if I were the GM - VLC is not the answer to the Preds scoring issues and they would have to take on a ridiculous contract... I wouldn't do it either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 @Irishjim I just can't believe it works like that. If a GM receives an offer that helps his team, but refuses to accept it because he thinks the other GM is a big poopy head..... Come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Basically what I got out of the article is that Shea Weber will be traded to the Flyers, in about six years, for two 1st round picks, a conditional 3rd round pick, a budding defensemen, and a top six forward. 10 days after being traded to the Flyers, he'll sign a 7 year extension and thus be considered an over 35 deal. Somewhere in the mix he'll get injured and the Flyers will be on the hook for lots of $$$. Hatcher+Rathje = Hathje the super defender in Clarke's mind.Pronger= all six defensemen in Holmgren's mind.Weber= the cycle continuing..... ......to be continued Edited July 24, 2014 by Bertmega 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 @IrishjimI just can't believe it works like that. If a GM receives an offer that helps his team, but refuses to accept it because he thinks the other GM is a big poopy head..... Come on. I agree. While Poile may not be willing to do the Flyers any favors, I also can't believe that he would refuse to upgrade his team through a trade with the Flyers over the Weber deal. I just don't think Lecavalier is a fit in Nashville, as they need a few years to contend, and acquiring Vinny is a "win now" type of move (as in he's not a guy to build around for the future. Don't blow the "win" part of that out of proportion ). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) @AJgoal VLC in my opinion is going to be a deadline move. Some team on the cusp that needs scoring depth will take the contract to make a run. Especially if said name team is hurting at center. Maybe like the Adam Oates move of 01-02 season where the Flyers wanted to make a run, but were decimated at center. And also, I agree, Nashville is not going to be spiteful for the sake of being spiteful. The way I see it is they will not be going out of their way to do the Flyers any favors, but if the right deal came along the most certainly would have to. Edited July 24, 2014 by Bertmega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 @IrishjimI just can't believe it works like that. If a GM receives an offer that helps his team, but refuses to accept it because he thinks the other GM is a big poopy head..... Come on. It doesn't work like that and I think we all know it. But conspiracy theories are so much more fun. If Poile had something against the Flyers then he could probably extract his pound of flesh by trading for Vinny, considering that the Flyers aren't exactly dealing from a position of strength here. On top of which, if anything Homer did the Preds a favor. By structuring the deal the way he did he gave them a more favorable cap hit, without any NTC/NMC, than Weber would have gotten if he had signed a one year deal with Nashville and then hit free agency the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 I mean let's assume the Pronger deal and the loss of those draft picks and the salary tied up in that and the subsequent career ending injury have played a large part too.Homer should have targeted holding on to Carle and getting another 2nd tier (non once in a generation) D man the year he made his play for Weber... I totally agree, but I think the culture of how this team approaches filling the D corps was long since in place at that point (hatcher, smith, timmo, pronger... sort of a big pattern). Still, if Poille's team can't score and has the cap room for a scoring center and doesn't fill it out of spite, I think maybe they need a new GM. This is why the defense is in the shape it is in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I'm in total agreement. I say give him as much time as you can on the 2nd line and the PP without seriously damaging Schenn's development and let him showcase his abilities and then sell him to the highest bidder. I think it could happen by Christmas. VLC staying healthy is kinda key too though. Hell if he can keep scoring like he was at the end of the year, keep playing him on the 4th line. Anything to make the guy look worth his salary to a team looking to make a run. VLC in my opinion is going to be a deadline move. Edited July 24, 2014 by King Knut 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 I don't think GM's screw their own teams out of spite. I think Poile might be inclined to find another replacement for Fisher if he could, but if he can't, he's not going to screw his team to spite a GM who is no longer the guy he'd be negotiating with.I do however think that Agents advise their clients based on history and I think the Flyers pay a premium and have to commit to NMC's because of stupid mistakes and poor treatment of players in the past. After Richards, Carter and Gagne and how Homer treated them, no agent in his right mind will let a player trust the Flyers. I think the lasting effects of Homerisms like that have cost us in cap room and contract years. I also think this may have something to do with the reason that Homer is now not the guy running said negotiations.It doesn't work like that and I think we all know it. But conspiracy theories are so much more fun. If Poile had something against the Flyers then he could probably extract his pound of flesh by trading for Vinny, considering that the Flyers aren't exactly dealing from a position of strength here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Shea Weber Paul Holmgren is why Vinny Lecavalier is still here (with an assist from Ed Snider). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 GM's really flip out about offer sheets though. It's in the rules, why do they expect no one will try it? Remember the bile that Yzerman spewed when just the rumor mill suggested Homer might try to offer sheet Stamkos? Stevie flipped out! Why? The dude's contract is up and someone's willing to pay him what he's worth... deal with it buddy! Same thing happened a long time ago with Clarke when he offer sheeted Ryan Kesler before he was quite Ryan Kesler yet. the Canucks went ape ****. I'll say one thing for Homer and management, they may overpay, but they do everything they can to resign their RFA's mid season so they don't have to deal with that crap. It's part of the game people. Players should be applauding it because that threat and the way it can lead to things like arbitration and what not is literally the only thing protecting young superstars from being grossly underpaid for the first half of their careers. I agree... there were no rules broken and the Flyers played it accordingly. The only thing I look at why would the Preds want to do the Flyers a solid by taking on a very overpaid Center that is on the decline? I would laugh too if I were the GM - VLC is not the answer to the Preds scoring issues and they would have to take on a ridiculous contract... I wouldn't do it either... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) GM's really flip out about offer sheets though. It's in the rules, why do they expect no one will try it? Remember the bile that Yzerman spewed when just the rumor mill suggested Homer might try to offer sheet Stamkos? Stevie flipped out! Why? The dude's contract is up and someone's willing to pay him what he's worth... deal with it buddy! Same thing happened a long time ago with Clarke when he offer sheeted Ryan Kesler before he was quite Ryan Kesler yet. the Canucks went ape ****. I'll say one thing for Homer and management, they may overpay, but they do everything they can to resign their RFA's mid season so they don't have to deal with that crap. It's part of the game people. Players should be applauding it because that threat and the way it can lead to things like arbitration and what not is literally the only thing protecting young superstars from being grossly underpaid for the first half of their careers. I agree totally... my whole argument is that I dont see why Pouile would want Vinny at the cost of his contract. I think he is a shrewd man for not taking on that contract as it stands today. Vinny is not the answer for that Team and to buy on the premise of "well, we need a center that might score" is bad business... Homer **** the bed with this deal and we are going to pay for it... if his decline continues I dont see a Team that would want his services at the deadline either. If he is not playing well why take on that ridiculous contract? I give Homer credit for doing everything to get thier man (Weber) but I sure as hell put more blame on him for stringing together a terrible defensive group and not having a plan B. Sorry, the Isle twins are not going to solve our issues and at their cap hit it makes you realize how dusfuntional Homer was when acquiring defensmen. Edited July 24, 2014 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I do think it matters. Poile wasn't playing hardball with Weber, they were in negotiations when Holmgren through a crazy contract offer in. That blew up Poile's negotiating power and gave Weber ALL of the leverage. To Nashville's credit, they matched it.As for hurting his team, Poile would make a move that benefits the Preds if the Flyers offered one, but I don't see one to be had here. Lecavalier didn't have a top six year last year, and that's what the Preds need. Not a bottom six guy getting top six money. Where does that help the Preds? And I think the Weber offer sheet DOES taint Poile's willingness to roll the dice on something just to help the Flyers out. Without that history, MAYBE Poile is more inclined to say "well lets see what he can do here. Remember you owe us one though" for future dealings. You're not gonna see that now. And yes it gets done that way. Right here though it won't be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishjim Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 @IrishjimI just can't believe it works like that. If a GM receives an offer that helps his team, but refuses to accept it because he thinks the other GM is a big poopy head..... Come on.did you just use the term poopy head..did your kid hack your account but to be true i think pollie has a no trade clause installed with the flyers..its his own fault but no way did he want to pay weber that kind of coin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Poile wasn't playing hardball with Weber, they were in negotiations when Holmgren through a crazy contract offer in. That blew up Poile's negotiating power and gave Weber ALL of the leverage. I would have to disagree. If I remember correctly Weber could have waited one year and then become an unrestricted free agent. At that point he really would have had all the leverage. But when he signed the Flyers offer sheet he basically agreed to play the bulk of his career for one of two teams, the Flyers or Nashville. And he didn't get a NMC/NTC so Nashville can trade him anywhere they want to. From the POV of what was in Weber's best interest, I think he was kind of dumb to sign the offer sheet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 @JackStrawYou and your pesky facts can go fly a kite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 @Podein25 - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 @Podein25 -Okay, I'm impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I would have to disagree. If I remember correctly Weber could have waited one year and then become an unrestricted free agent. At that point he really would have had all the leverage. But when he signed the Flyers offer sheet he basically agreed to play the bulk of his career for one of two teams, the Flyers or Nashville. And he didn't get a NMC/NTC so Nashville can trade him anywhere they want to. From the POV of what was in Weber's best interest, I think he was kind of dumb to sign the offer sheet. If Weber had waited another season then you would be correct. At the time though, Nashville was trying to sign him to alleviate that issue, and the club was making offers and receiving counter offers with Weber's agent. Nashville was also shopping him around to see what could be had for him so they wouldn't lose him in free agency if at all possible. They were actively seeking a good trade for Weber, and negotiating with him on the side. When Holmgren made that offer, it took all of Nashville's leverage away. Not only could they no longer control what terms a possible extension would be, they could no longer entertain the idea of a big trade with him to strengthen their club. Their options were completely stripped down to sign him at a crazy contract, or let him walk for four first round picks that would all be low round fodder. Weber couldn't wait a year. Poile wouldn't allow it. He'd either sign Weber to an extension or make a big trade with him as the centerpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 As for MacD I expect very good things for the $ Homer handed over... Ha....I have a really good feel for Flyers fans, they select their targets carefully. There is a whole boatload of Flyers fans that are just itching to bitch about Mac....if he were to have a bad start next year, there would be a literal avalanche of hatred towards this guy. Thing is, he's so steady back there, not much of a chance he will do anything to draw the ire of the Flyer faithful. Best case is he is quiet and you don't notice him much, which will mean he's doing his job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Ha....I have a really good feel for Flyers fans, they select their targets carefully. There is a whole boatload of Flyers fans that are just itching to bitch about Mac....if he were to have a bad start next year, there would be a literal avalanche of hatred towards this guy. Thing is, he's so steady back there, not much of a chance he will do anything to draw the ire of the Flyer faithful. Best case is he is quiet and you don't notice him much, which will mean he's doing his job.Lol... You are right. Let's just hope he plays better than he showed in the Rangers series. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 If Weber had waited another season then you would be correct. At the time though, Nashville was trying to sign him to alleviate that issue, and the club was making offers and receiving counter offers with Weber's agent. Nashville was also shopping him around to see what could be had for him so they wouldn't lose him in free agency if at all possible. They were actively seeking a good trade for Weber, and negotiating with him on the side. When Holmgren made that offer, it took all of Nashville's leverage away. Not only could they no longer control what terms a possible extension would be, they could no longer entertain the idea of a big trade with him to strengthen their club. Their options were completely stripped down to sign him at a crazy contract, or let him walk for four first round picks that would all be low round fodder. Weber couldn't wait a year. Poile wouldn't allow it. He'd either sign Weber to an extension or make a big trade with him as the centerpiece. My point was that by signing the Flyers offer sheet, Weber gave up a lot of leverage he would have had if he had waiting to become a free agent. Which Poile could not have stopped him from doing if that's what Weber wanted to do. He could have picked his team (obviously there would have been a lot of interest) and he almost certainly would have gotten a NTC. He lost a lot of leverage in deciding where he would be playing in the future. I wasn't suggesting that Poile gained any leverage in the negotiations, obviously he didn't. However, while the contract may have seemed crazy at the time it works out very well for Nashville, they've already payed a big chunk of all the money he's owed, and that combined with the lack of a NTC would make it very easy to trade him if for some reason they wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Lol... You are right. Let's just hope he plays better than he showed in the Rangers series Let's just hope he's not the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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