Coburn to Tampa for picks and prospect

[pilldoc]

@ruxpin

@murraycraven

 

Damm I'm too late for the Kuato joke!   I just saw your posts after I posted mine!.... Hey great minds think alike......

[ruxpin]

So we finally ID'd Kuato!

 

Yep, we finally ID'd them.

[OccamsRazor]

Funny Radko for being label slow and not good with the puck has more goals than Coburn this year in way fewer games...and he has actually out produced Coburn over the last 3 years...so that is nice to read.

[Mad Dog]

I really do think Tampa was/is a perfect situation for him.  He stays top 4 but can be the "other" guy on either pair.    And he typically does play better in the playoffs than the regular season.  The Bolts really did help themselves for this run.

For the run - maybe.  But long-range, unless THEY improve their D, they are going to get the same Coburn as they Flyers had.  He needs to play with a top-tier partner who would be sheilding him from mistakes.  That guy isn't there at Tampa now.  Again, they can get a decent playoff run out of him, but then it's just a matter of time until they see that he is nothing more than a third pairing d-man, who even in THAT role needs a defensibly responsible defensive partner and no more than 17 minutes per game.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Funny Radko for being label slow and not good with the puck has more goals than Coburn this year in way fewer games...and he has actually out produced Coburn over the last 3 years...so that is nice to read.

 

Radko Gudas isn't "slow".

He may not be blazing fast, but slow does not fit him....now, dexterity on his skates and his puck handling, that is different.

Straight speed and dexterity are two different things.

 

Radko kept up fine with Tampa's fast players, but he got spun around here and there by the leagues more agile forwards when trying to defend them.

As for his production, he DOES have a good hard shot, not super accurate, but good enough, that the skilled Tampa forwards can either re-direct or create a screen for, so not surprising he has a bit of offense to show during his time with the Bolts.

 

But Philly isn't getting the guy for his offense...its the physical play, his youth, salary, and the fact he still has some ceiling.

 

Now, he did have season ending KNEE surgery, so depending on how he re-habs, his speed may have been compromised.

Stevie Y had some bad luck with D-men with knee surgeries (Mattias Ohlund), and maybe he was thinking Gudas was Ohlund all over again.

The thing in Radko's favor is, he will be 25 this summer, as opposed to Ohlund who was already in his mid early to mid 30's with his knee surgeries.

[JackStraw]

He needs to play with a top-tier partner who would be sheilding him from mistakes.  That guy isn't there at Tampa now

 

You don't think Hedman is a top-tier partner?

[radoran]

Keep in mind that you're dealing with a fanbase that routinely booed the guy who was voted the greatest third baseman in the history of baseball.

 

"The thrill of victory and the agony of (hearing) about it the next day"
- Mike Schmidt

 

[OccamsRazor]

Radko Gudas isn't "slow".

He may not be blazing fast, but slow does not fit him....now, dexterity on his skates and his puck handling, that is different.

Straight speed and dexterity are two different things.

 

Radko kept up fine with Tampa's fast players, but he got spun around here and there by the leagues more agile forwards when trying to defend them.

As for his production, he DOES have a good hard shot, not super accurate, but good enough, that the skilled Tampa forwards can either re-direct or create a screen for, so not surprising he has a bit of offense to show during his time with the Bolts.

 

But Philly isn't getting the guy for his offense...its the physical play, his youth, salary, and the fact he still has some ceiling.

 

Now, he did have season ending KNEE surgery, so depending on how he re-habs, his speed may have been compromised.

Stevie Y had some bad luck with D-men with knee surgeries (Mattias Ohlund), and maybe he was thinking Gudas was Ohlund all over again.

The thing in Radko's favor is, he will be 25 this summer, as opposed to Ohlund who was already in his mid early to mid 30's with his knee surgeries.

Yeah i think he will be ok following his surgery it was just MCL..i'd be more concerned if it was an ACL or PCL. He'll be fine by next season.

May be the trade to Tampa will spark something in him....before he took a puck in the eye he was well on his way to becoming one of the Flyers best Dan....unfortunately he has been the same since from a production standpoint or even displaying the smarts he seemed to have before it...sadly it changed him for the worst.

[Lucky13]

 

Damm I'm too late for the Kuato joke!  

 

It's never too late for a Kuato joke...!

[Mad Dog]

You don't think Hedman is a top-tier partner?

He is a good d-man.  Now two ways about it.  But is he good to the point where he would be able to mask Coburn's issues as Timonen did?  Besides, we don't know if Hedman will even get paired with Coburn. And who else does Tampa have on the roster who can do it?  And that's the thing with Coburn.  I think as long as he does have that good defenisve partner, he can be relatively successful.  But if the Flyers were uanable to find him that guy over the last several yeras, why should Tampa fans hold their breath that he would have more success on their team?

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

He is a good d-man.  Now two ways about it.  But is he good to the point where he would be able to mask Coburn's issues as Timonen did?  Besides, we don't know if Hedman will even get paired with Coburn. And who else does Tampa have on the roster who can do it?  And that's the thing with Coburn.  I think as long as he does have that good defenisve partner, he can be relatively successful.  But if the Flyers were uanable to find him that guy over the last several yeras, why should Tampa fans hold their breath that he would have more success on their team?

 

Anton Stralman is a good all around defenseman.

Coburn might be paired with him...and if Coburn picks up his own game, maybe even Garrison or Barberio are possibilities.

Right now, the top pair on the Lightning are Hedman-Stralman.

[Mad Dog]

Anton Stralman is a good all around defenseman.

Coburn might be paired with him...and if Coburn picks up his own game, maybe even Garrison or Barberio are possibilities.

Right now, the top pair on the Lightning are Hedman-Stralman.

Sure.  And if I am Jon Cooper, there is no way I am breaking up Hedman-Stralman pairing.

 

I have seen both Garrison and Barberio play.  Obviously, I am not nearly as familiar with their game as you are, but I will be SHOCKED if either of those guys will make Coburn look better.

 

For the sake of Tampa's fans, I hope Coburn pans out. And for Coburn's sake too, I hope he succeds.  Personally, I have nothing against the guy.  He was an OK player here. But I was not wrong about Carle, and I don't think I will be wrong about Coburn.  We'll see.  

[JackStraw]

I would say Hedman is better than Timonen now. Probably getting close to Timonen at his peak. Hedman will be a perennial Norris candidate. I don't know what Tampa will do but it seems to me that Hedman and Coburn would be the ideal top pair.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Sure.  And if I am Jon Cooper, there is no way I am breaking up Hedman-Stralman pairing.

 

I have seen both Garrison and Barberio play.  Obviously, I am not nearly as familiar with their game as you are, but I will be SHOCKED if either of those guys will make Coburn look better.

 

For the sake of Tampa's fans, I hope Coburn pans out. And for Coburn's sake too, I hope he succeds.  Personally, I have nothing against the guy.  He was an OK player here. But I was not wrong about Carle, and I don't think I will be wrong about Coburn.  We'll see.  

 

That's why I made it a point to say Coburn needs to pick up his OWN game.

Coach Jon Cooper and the TB organization really isn't in the habit of 'carrying' or 'hand holding' players.

 

Sure, Coburn maybe eased in by perhaps playing with a solid established player like a Hedman or Stralman, but TB expects him take the initiative after that...and if he does, then a pairing with Garrison or Barberio (or even 6'8 Andrej Sustr) could work, as those players can be COMPLIMENTARY players with Coburn, rather than just trying to 'mask' his deficiencies.

 

Cooper likes Hedman and Stralman together, and I am sure he'd rather not split them up so yea, we will see.

 

When Radko Gudas played, he was often paired with either Carle, Barberio, or Garrison.

So if Coburn is taking his spot, outside of being eased in at first, he probably will be expected to hold his own playing with some of those guys as well.

 

Like I said several times in this thread already, though not set in stone, Coburn COULD see some improvement in his play simply from having a better overall crop of fellow defensemen to work with, forwards 4 lines deep legitimately, and better goaltending behind him on an up-tempo style the Bolts play.

[jammer2]

  Like I said in the shoutbox...I'm hoping and praying that Coburn is paired with Carle, they would be a weak link and could singlehandely knock the Bolts out of the playoffs.....meaning the Flyers get a better draft pick. Every Flyer fan should be rooting against TB....BIG TIME. If the Bolts exit in the first round rather than the ECF...that is 10-12 picks we move up. Count our own just out of the playoff picture slot...you have some real nice picks there.

[JackStraw]

That's why I made it a point to say Coburn needs to pick up his OWN game.

Coach Jon Cooper and the TB organization really isn't in the habit of 'carrying' or 'hand holding' players.

 

Sure, Coburn maybe eased in by perhaps playing with a solid established player like a Hedman or Stralman, but TB expects him take the initiative after that...and if he does, then a pairing with Garrison or Barberio (or even 6'8 Andrej Sustr) could work, as those players can be COMPLIMENTARY players with Coburn, rather than just trying to 'mask' his deficiencies.

 

Cooper likes Hedman and Stralman together, and I am sure he'd rather not split them up so yea, we will see.

 

When Radko Gudas played, he was often paired with either Carle, Barberio, or Garrison.

So if Coburn is taking his spot, outside of being eased in at first, he probably will be expected to hold his own playing with some of those guys as well.

 

Like I said several times in this thread already, though not set in stone, Coburn COULD see some improvement in his play simply from having a better overall crop of fellow defensemen to work with, forwards 4 lines deep legitimately, and better goaltending behind him on an up-tempo style the Bolts play.

 

I'm not a Tampa fan but if I was I would hope that Yzerman wasn't thinking like this when he made this trade (if I understand you correctly). It's actually very simple- Coburn's strength, the reason you want this guy, is because he can shut down top opposing forwards. He's the guy you want on the ice against the Ovechkins and the Malkins of the world. He doesn't need to "up" his game, that is his game and it always has been. He's had a rough year mainly because he's broken his left foot on two different occasions, so he might still be getting back up to speed. But it's not as if he's a guy who has been struggling for some time now and needed a "change of scenery".

 

On the other hand, if you're expecting him to be more of the lead guy on a pair, the guy the moves the puck and helps generate offense, then you will be disappointed. He's not that player and never has been. But I'm 99% sure that Yzerman did not acquire him for that.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

I'm not a Tampa fan but if I was I would hope that Yzerman wasn't thinking like this when he made this trade (if I understand you correctly). It's actually very simple- Coburn's strength, the reason you want this guy, is because he can shut down top opposing forwards. He's the guy you want on the ice against the Ovechkins and the Malkins of the world. He doesn't need to "up" his game, that is his game and it always has been. He's had a rough year mainly because he's broken his left foot on two different occasions, so he might still be getting back up to speed. But it's not as if he's a guy who has been struggling for some time now and needed a "change of scenery".

 

On the other hand, if you're expecting him to be more of the lead guy on a pair, the guy the moves the puck and helps generate offense, then you will be disappointed. He's not that player and never has been. But I'm 99% sure that Yzerman did not acquire him for that.

 

Hmmm...yet from the sounds of most Flyer fans here, he wasn't even doing the bolded very often....hence having to "pick up his own game".

 

I don't think anyone in Tampa is expecting him to be someone he is not, but he is a big man, and he needs to play like one.

Shut down D-man is what the Bolts need, and what they are likely expecting from Coburn.

 

And going by what many Philly fans here yell on and on about on a regular basis, he has NOT been that.

Reasons notwithstanding, if he has not been much of a shut down guy, then yea, he needs to "up" his game back to that....whether that is getting up to speed to where he was before, etc...whatever the case is.

 

Its probably why Yzerman is taking the chance with him now.

Not having Radko Gudas, the Bolts lost quite a bit of physicality, attitude, and sandpaper from the blue line.....if Coburn can provide just some of that back, maybe have it rub off on younger guys like Sustr, who is 6'8, while playing a bit better brand of up-ice hockey, then Coburn should be fine.

 

I am under no illusions that Coburn will help the offense. The offense in TB doesn't NEED help. They are the highest scoring team in the league, and that is while having a guy like Stamkos have a sub-par year by his own standards.

All Coburn needs to do is be a more responsible blue liner, and not let forwards waltz through the neutral zone like they have been regularly against the Lightning.

 

Get up to speed, or up his game to that...whatever you want to call it...THAT is what most likely expected of him.

[jammer2]

Not having Radko Gudas, the Bolts lost quite a bit of physicality, attitude, and sandpaper from the blue line.....if Coburn can provide just some of that back, maybe have it rub off on younger guys like Sustr, who is 6'8, while playing a bit better brand of up-ice hockey, then Coburn should be fine.

 

 Coburn does throw the odd wicked check....once a month. We all were starving to see a mean streak come out of Coburn...it never materialized.

[JackStraw]

Shut down D-man is what the Bolts need, and what they are likely expecting from Coburn.

 

And that's what they're getting.

 

Not having Radko Gudas, the Bolts lost quite a bit of physicality, attitude, and sandpaper from the blue line.....if Coburn can provide just some of that back

 

Gudas and Coburn are not remotely comparable. If they were, Tampa wouldn't have had to trade a 1st and a 3rd in addition to Gudas to get Coburn. Coburn does not give you "sandpaper" or "attitude". He gives you shut down defense, which is a lot more important.

[AJgoal]

Coburn won't give you much sandpaper, except on the rare occasion when angry Coburn emerges. He makes a pretty good first pass, is a very good skater, is good positionally (the few gaffes people rail on incessantly notwithstanding), and is very good at breaking up opponent's zone entries. He's solid and unspectacular.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

 Coburn does throw the odd wicked check....once a month. We all were starving to see a mean streak come out of Coburn...it never materialized.

 

A  'mean streak' would certainly be nice, but honestly, it really doesn't even have to be that.....though Gudas certainly has THAT in spades.

 

Just finishing checks. He doesn't have to knock guys out of their skates, but definitely finish a check and separate man-from-puck.

I get so flippin aggravated with many of the Bolts defenders when they get a forward, then they place their own bodies away, then try poking pucks free, or poke around with the stick trying to disrupt a play, only to be either called on a stick penalty of some sort, or have the forward blow right by them.

 

Then you see some plays where Bolt defenders actually FINISH a check, again, not necessarily Scott Stevens quality, just a solid finish, puck gets separated, fast Bolts forwards come pick it up and off they go.

If Coburn develops a mean streak, great...but even if not so, he can still shut down guys simply by finishing checks and having forwards worry that yea, he IS gonna hit'em.

 

Think he can provide that?

[JackStraw]

 Coburn does throw the odd wicked check....once a month. We all were starving to see a mean streak come out of Coburn...it never materialized.

 

Seriously, who cares how mean he is? How many times over the years has he gone up against Malkin and Ovechkin types and done the job? How many defensemen in the league can do that? He's not an all-star, never was and never will be. But IF a team is looking for a defensive defenseman to bolster their blue line, they're aren't that many better than (or even as good as) Coburn. If you want that AND offense then you're talking about a whole different income bracket.

 

I wanted him traded not because I don't like him, but because the Flyers are rebuilding (regardless of what Ed Snider says) and he was their most valuable trade piece (excluding the guys who won't be traded like G, Simmonds, Voracek, Mason).

[jammer2]

Think he can provide that?

 

 Most of the time, yeah...but when his game goes south...he does not mess around...lol. I think he's ok in his own zone, especially when he can use his big wingspan to cut off passing lanes...for me, the weak part of his game is having to travel 10-15 feet in his own end...faster smaller players blow by him before he can turn his lumbering frame into the right spot. He's a great skater once he gets going, but the first few steps are brutal and can be worrisome.

[flyercanuck]

@TropicalFruitGirl26

 

Put it this way...if Coburn played his career with Tampa and all us fans were watching from the Orange and Black side of the fence, and we got him for a first and a third and Gudas, most here would be happy. He never developed into the player he probably could have (and thats probably on the Flyers...they've never been able to do it) and he's looked lost since Timonens started regressing. But he's not nearly as bad as he's been made out to be here.A new address might be just what he needed. 

[Mad Dog]

Seriously, who cares how mean he is? How many times over the years has he gone up against Malkin and Ovechkin types and done the job? How many defensemen in the league can do that?

 

I would say he was that prior to 2012-2013 season.  Since then - and I am not really sure why - he wasn't doing even that with regularity.  The guy had three straight 'minus' seasons. He caughs up the puck when just a simple, safe play could have gotten the job done. And I don't even know how many times I screemed at my TV because he could not make a simple play just to get the fricking puck out of his zone with almost nobody around him.  It almost feels like he's on the ice just about every time the Flyers are scored on.  I know that's not the case, but because of how unreliable he was all season long it sure feels that way.

 

I also disagree with you that he got traded because he was the most valuable trading chip.  I disagree with this completely.  I don't care whether a team is rebuilding or not.  If the player is really that valuable, you don't trade him period.

 

He is gone and I am glad he is gone.  Good riddance!  He won't be missed.