canoli Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 I guess one or the other - maybe both - will need to find a new team next summer. Can you envision a realistic scenario that keeps both guys in Philly past the 2016-17 season? I realize NHL teams don't generally spend $12 million on goaltending. But given the Flyers' depressing history of filling the position maybe it's time to try something radically different. Maybe this is a unique situation and calls for a unique solution. Assuming there's no personal reasons to separate them the smart move could be to keep those 2 together and lock up the goaltending position for the eventual (legitimate) Cup run in a few years. Maybe it's a stretch to call it a unique situation simply because the Flyers have been so spectacularly bad at finding goaltenders. Certainly Hextall's not to blame for the Bryz-aster. He didn't sign Biron or waste (and probably ruin) Bobrovsky. He's not responsible for any of the pretenders and washed-up veterans the Flyers trotted out over the years to try and stop pucks. He can't be expected to take those failures into account. OTOH the Flyers are sitting pretty right now with 2 guys who work well together. Can they afford to go with the usual tandem, the ~$6 mil starter and the ~$1-2 mil backup, in the process breaking up an excellent one-two combination? If they're willing (even better if they're eager) to stay for the right price ... should the Flyers offer attractive contracts to both of them and what is that right price? [assume they both stay reasonably healthy this year and have average (for them) seasons.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Just now, canoli said: I guess one or the other - maybe both - will need to find a new team next summer. Can you envision a realistic scenario that keeps both guys in Philly past the 2016-17 season? I realize NHL teams don't generally spend $12 million on goaltending. But given the Flyers' depressing history of filling the position maybe it's time to try something radically different. Maybe this is a unique situation and calls for a unique solution. Assuming there's no personal reasons to separate them the smart move could be to keep those 2 together and lock up the goaltending position for the eventual (legitimate) Cup run in a few years. Maybe it's a stretch to call it a unique situation simply because the Flyers have been so spectacularly bad at finding goaltenders. Certainly Hextall's not to blame for the Bryz-aster. He didn't sign Biron or waste (and probably ruin) Bobrovsky. He's not responsible for any of the pretenders and washed-up veterans the Flyers trotted out over the years to try and stop pucks. He can't be expected to take those failures into account. OTOH the Flyers are sitting pretty right now with 2 guys who work well together. Can they afford to go with the usual tandem, the ~$6 mil starter and the ~$1-2 mil backup, in the process breaking up an excellent one-two combination? If they're willing (even better if they're eager) to stay for the right price ... should the Flyers offer attractive contracts to both of them and what is that right price? [assume they both stay reasonably healthy this year and have average (for them) seasons.] I think the expansion draft pretty much precludes this. You'd have to leave at least one unsigned, two if you protect Stolarz. Then hope to sign them after the draft occurs. And I saw one source that said Vegas will have an exclusive negotiating period with UFAs prior to the expansion draft - which would give them the opportunity to snipe any unsigned FAs with "handshake deals" to return to their old clubs after the draft is over (If true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Canoli and Colleagues: I'll repeat my prediction--I think both Mase and Neuvy are gone in 2018. If both play well, they become too expensive, particularly Mason who has never shown himself as a playoff goalie. If Neuvy plays well...he will want more money or jump ship for a starting job somewhere. I agree we have a good thing going but like all good things--I suspect this will come to an end. Neuvy has never done more than 48 games. He may be a super sub and no more. But Canoli is right....at least this duo seems to work. That has been a rarity for the franchise. I guess Stolarz's progress and/or injuries will factor. Jeepers...it's depressing to think that other than Nitty, Bobo, and Boosh...who have we grown in recent years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 6, 2016 Author Share Posted August 6, 2016 @AJgoal i forgot all about the expansion draft ... blanked it out completely. This thread is now officially a waste of space since (pretty much) all bets are off when the Vegas High Rollers join the league. Ugh. @Howie58 with the expansion happening I have to think the odds of your prediction go way up. But I find it hard to believe they'd let Mason go because Hextall refuses to pay him what he wants. Even if he has a lights-out, Vezina-type season he can't realistically demand double his current $4.1 mil/year salary can he? In reality he probably shoots for somewhere around $6mil/year. Personally I'd keep him at that price despite his uneven PO record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 1 hour ago, canoli said: @AJgoal i forgot all about the expansion draft ... blanked it out completely. This thread is now officially a waste of space since (pretty much) all bets are off when the Vegas High Rollers join the league. Ugh. 1 Not necessarily. What is really interesting in guessing of who or who not to expose, the rule that states all players after 2 years professional experience can be exposed so the Flyers can only protect 1 goalie of Mason, Neuvirth, and Stolarz. Also, because Mason and Neuvirth are UFA's and the expansion draft is prior to July 1 if the Flyers don't sign either of them prior to June 17 (date to give the protected list to the league) and choose to protect Stolarz it may be a risky choice for Vegas to choose either one of them. According to the expansion rules Vegas must choose a minimum of 20 protected players and only a maximum of 10 unprotected players. And I believe since they both have UFA status either one of them could walk come July 1 of 2017 which would give Vegas a null pick. You also have to think that every team will likely have at least 1 decent unprotected goalie which makes available to Vegas a lot of goalies, experienced and without NHL experience. For example, Boston can only protect one of Rask or Malcolm Subban, or the Lightning can only protect Bishop or Vasilevskiy. Chicago will have to expose Scott Darling. The Blue Jackets will have to expose Oscar Dansk. This is going to be really interesting to see the strategies of who to make offers to next season. Going into this season what Hextall's strategy will be? Do both Mason and Neuvirth get equal time? Does one of them have such an outstanding season that will render Stolarz unprotected? Also, how does Stolarz play in Lehigh this season, will he actually get any NHL games to see if he is really a real deal worth protecting? Thus, I find this a really intriguing topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 3 hours ago, canoli said: @AJgoal i forgot all about the expansion draft ... blanked it out completely. This thread is now officially a waste of space since (pretty much) all bets are off when the Vegas High Rollers join the league. Ugh. @Howie58 with the expansion happening I have to think the odds of your prediction go way up. But I find it hard to believe they'd let Mason go because Hextall refuses to pay him what he wants. Even if he has a lights-out, Vezina-type season he can't realistically demand double his current $4.1 mil/year salary can he? In reality he probably shoots for somewhere around $6mil/year. Personally I'd keep him at that price despite his uneven PO record. There is honestly no way on God's green earth that I give Mason $6M for even one season, let alone the duration he would have to be looking for at 30(ish) years old. He's just simply not that good. He's been decent. That's an upgrade from what we've experienced. And his performance has been justified by his pay. But he is not a $6M goalie. Sure, there are some $6M goalies he compares positively to. But only because they, too, are not worth $6M.(I'm looking at you, Kari Lehtonen). I think, for example, MAF has justified his $5.75M contract, but when he got hurt a half-million guy successfully backstopped his team through a cup run. We have like 5 goalie prospects in the system. The best of them is likely not Stolarz. I keep both goalies only through this coming season regardless of expansion. The following year, pick one and let the other go. If you know which one you're keeping at this coming deadline, deal the other one. Start working in your prospect in 2017-18, or if they're not ready, go get a a cheap back up to bridge until the prospects are ready. $6M at that position just has no cost-rewarding ROI. EDIT: I don't continue Mason at $4.1M, either. I know this year he had other things going on -- significant personal issues, injury, loss of an effective goaltending coach -- but the numbers crept back to his last year in Columbus. It could be an aberration, but his stats--if they continue--don't justify that amount at that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 56 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I think, for example, MAF has justified his $5.75M contract, but when he got hurt a half-million guy successfully backstopped his team through a cup run Right, if the team is really good, the keeper needs to only be "adequate" it's the Chris Osgood situation. He was fine, his contract was in line with his ability, he cost them very few important games... He was playing behind a loaded team though so he won some championships. I also think having a strong team in front of the adequate goaltender makes for a longer winning "window". I don't subscribe to the superstar goalie being necessary to win championships theory... it's not the same as the quarterback position in the NFL. the King and Price have won as many championships as Bobby Lou... because they play behind middling teams, their presence makes their teams better than they actually "are". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Right, if the team is really good, the keeper needs to only be "adequate" it's the Chris Osgood situation. He was fine, his contract was in line with his ability, he cost them very few important games... He was playing behind a loaded team though so he won some championships. I also think having a strong team in front of the adequate goaltender makes for a longer winning "window". I don't subscribe to the superstar goalie being necessary to win championships theory... it's not the same as the quarterback position in the NFL. the King and Price have won as many championships as Bobby Lou... because they play behind middling teams, their presence makes their teams better than they actually "are". Marino, Fouts, Tarkenton, Moon, Testaverde never won. Eagle fans could throw in Cunningham and McNabb depending on which side of the love/hate they're currently sitting on. Meanwhile Dilfer, Flacco, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien all have rings. Manning won a Super Bowl last year in spite of posting the equivalent of an 8.75 GAA and a .489 save percentage. Rothlesberger won one going 9 for 21 with zero TDs and 2 picks. Just pointing that out, but agree with you, you don't need a superstar goalie...or qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 I think the goalie situation will be an interesting theme. We've forgotten another angle: trade. If our friend Neuvy has a good season he may be trade bait. I still think we see fresh faces next year. And with the patience/prudence of Hextall, I have to believe we'd need an injury to get Stolarz in the mix for a test start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Maybe one gets traded at the deadline? I'm not sure how the upcoming expansion draft affects that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 7 hours ago, hf101 said: must choose a minimum of 20 protected players Uh how do you chose a protected player??? I thought that was what the term protected meant?? You can't take them??? Am i wrong?? Help. #confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: you don't need a superstar goalie Exactly just see Niemi in 2010. He won a Cup with a 2.63 gaa and 910% not earth shattering numbers by any means... ...he just had to be better than that AHL journeyman he faced on the other side i forget his name......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 40 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Exactly just see Niemi in 2010. He won a Cup with a 2.63 gaa and 910% not earth shattering numbers by any means... ...he just had to be better than that AHL journeyman he faced on the other side i forget his name......... Funny, I was actually thinking of him, too. I don't think you want just anything in there, but I don't hamstring my cap with $6M at that position. Especially not on Mason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Myself as well, in fact I think Leights seemed positionally more sound, and it's ironic that his strength was not present on that last goal, that's a goal Neimi seemed more prone to give up as the game wore on. I Didn't mean to bring out that shovel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 15 hours ago, ruxpin said: but I don't hamstring my cap with $6M at that position. Especially not on Mason. What can I say to someone who wouldn't re-up the guy at his current $4.1 mil.? To me he's clearly an excellent goaltender who could take the Flyers to the Cup. The one "but" I'd add is that he appears to truly need (or, I should say, his team truly needs) a capable backup who won't leave too many points on the table while Mason goes through his annual whatever-he-goes-through. I know I'm not objective w/r/t Mason. As a Flyers fan I've been beaten down by 40 years of mediocre goaltending with maybe 2 bright spots during all that time (Pelle and Bob). We finally have a winning combination and apparently the hockey gods plan to shaft us again - NHL expansion - so we're bound to lose at least one of them. Good point about not needing a superstar to win the Cup. You do need some serious luck though when you bank on (or are forced to go with) a Niemi or Murray (or Leighton) to take you there. So far ... and it's 40+ years and counting ... the Flyers have had some serious luck - all bad - when it comes to goaltending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 1 hour ago, canoli said: What can I say to someone who wouldn't re-up the guy at his current $4.1 mil.? You say, "Yeah, you're right." Glad I could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 2 hours ago, ruxpin said: You say, "Yeah, you're right." Ya it was a tossup between that and "what a nutjob!" but why split hairs? Damn so it's back to Square One for the Flyers; the never-ending search for goaltenders begins all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canoli Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 On 8/6/2016 at 10:01 AM, hf101 said: Does one of them have such an outstanding season that will render Stolarz unprotected? I believe all 1st and 2nd year players are automatically protected and they don't count on the list of protected players. Unsigned players are exempt too. for the Flyers I think just Giroux is the only other automatically protected player since he has a NMC. Streit and Simmonds' NTC don't qualify for auto-protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pmwlker Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 My 2 cents I'd resign Mason Trade Neuvy at deadline to a team like Dallas Stolarz And Lyon battle it out to backup Mason after the deadline and for the next few seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 32 minutes ago, Pmwlker said: My 2 cents I'd resign Mason Trade Neuvy at deadline to a team like Dallas Stolarz And Lyon battle it out to backup Mason after the deadline and for the next few seasons If both goalies have similar seasons to last season, I agree that Neuvy gets you more in trade value. Plus, even though it may just be through the rest of the season, Neuvirth may be easier for the other (whomever it is) team to fit into their cap than Mason at $4.1M. I'm okay with that. I wouldn't be stunned if neither Neuvirth nor Mason is here at the start of the 2017-18 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pmwlker Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, ruxpin said: If both goalies have similar seasons to last season, I agree that Neuvy gets you more in trade value. Plus, even though it may just be through the rest of the season, Neuvirth may be easier for the other (whomever it is) team to fit into their cap than Mason at $4.1M. I'm okay with that. I wouldn't be stunned if neither Neuvirth nor Mason is here at the start of the 2017-18 season. My concern with Mason would be length of contract honestly. 2 years possibly 3 I'm comfortable with any longer I'd be hesitant. Interesting to see how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Pmwlker said: My concern with Mason would be length of contract honestly. 2 years possibly 3 I'm comfortable with any longer I'd be hesitant. Interesting to see how it plays out. I'd be okay with 2 years, but not a penny more than he's currently making. I'd have concern with three years, but it would be okay if prospects just aren't ready yet (the problem being, of course, that you can't know that when signing him to the three years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pmwlker Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 I think in 2 years Lyon can be the starter. Very high on him. Hesitant to rush him hence 2 years of Mason as stopgap after next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Pmwlker said: I think in 2 years Lyon can be the starter. Very high on him. Hesitant to rush him hence 2 years of Mason as stopgap after next season. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 I also believe you don't necessarily need a superstar goalie or QB to win it all...but if you don't have the goalie or QB, you MUST have a championship defense to equal things out. The Flyers may indeed have that eventually, but it won't be in the next couple of years, the prospects must evolve and learn first. A LOT of teams will be looking to unload a quality tender this coming year....it's like a million dollar game of musical chairs, you don't want to be in the positon of having to protect 2 goalies come early next summer....the penalty cuts to deep to protect 2 of them....thus, the value of Neuvy and or Mason will be substantially lower than most years. Myself, I think Neuvy is fundamentally equal to Mason, and perhaps was just caught with good goalies in front of him for his entire career. NO WAY do I pay Mason more than his current 4.1...and realistically, I'd like to see him dealt, but like said, for 2016-17....you will never get an adequate return for him. I'm very intrigued by Lyons....would love to see him play a few games. Stolarz has earned the right to be back up, based on his very respectable AhL stats from last year. It is quite obvious he worked very hard to get his GGA and SV% down .....considering his size and relative youth, would love to see what he can do in the big show. I'm sure the progress of hart will be followed closely, and when you take into account all the tending prospects....he may play out his full jr career as the NCAA guys come of age and demand a AhL spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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