Game #13 - Flyers (4) at Canadiens (5) - Nov 5, 2016 @ 7:00 ET

[canoli]

No Rux I had the Montreal feed - only choice tonight on Center Ice. Good lord  the puck's on edge...so what? Neuvirth's stick shouldn't be on the ice? Get the (&@# outta here Coatsey you clown.

 

I think Couturier had the worst play of the night. Montreal's 1st goal Couturier passes to Markov - whoops - and instead of going after him, pressuring the puck he floats, watches Markov wind up and turns aside to let the puck through. 1-0 Habs.

 

Flyers' Team D is an oxymoron. Talent is lacking on the back end but the forwards play sloppy at the start of games and that's causing just as many TOs and GA. When a responsible forward like Couturier just watches his mistake turn into a goal ... something is really wrong with the team.

 

Couturier turns it over then watches as Markov scores

[ruxpin]

Seriously, bring up Stolarz.  He's 22.  He's not fully-cooked, but he can't do any worse.  And he may just do a Hammond thing for awhile.  Who knows?

 

But something is going on with Mason that he can't be trusted to take one start among 3 in 4 nights.   And Neuvirth has been flat out lousy (while I'm on this subject, Hakstol saying Neuvirth has earned this and has "played well during this stretch," makes him either an abject liar or delusional).  

 

So, if there's room with the roster/cap, do it.  I actually don't know that there's room without moving someone.

[ruxpin]

10 minutes ago, canoli said:

No Rux I had the Montreal feed - only choice tonight on Center Ice. Good lord  the puck's on edge...so what? Neuvirth's stick shouldn't be on the ice? Get the (&@# outta here Coatsey you clown.

 

As bad as Neuvirth was on that goal I think Couturier had the worst play of the night. On Montreal's 1st goal Couturier on the breakout passes to Markov - whoops - and instead of going after him and pressuring the puck he just floats, watches Markov wind up and then believe it or not turns aside to let the puck go through. 1-0.

 

Despite the surprising GF/G the Team D is for ****. I think half the trouble is the forwards playing too loose, i.e. sloppy, esp at the start of games. When a responsible forward like Couturier commits a horrible TO and then just watches his mistake turn into a goal ... something is really going wrong with the team.

 

I can't disagree with any of that.  

 

I'm not sure whether Couturier was floating or simply doesn't have the foot speed to get back there.  I think possibly both, but effort might have overcome speed there.  I'm really souring quickly on Couturier.  We were talking in the shoutbox and I said it there, but I think Couturier is a misfit on the 2nd line.  Move Schenn there at center and put Couturier back on the 3rd line. He's embarrassing himself out there and Schenn has no business whatsoever on the 4th line.

 

Honestly, this is even year so it's supposed to be goalie, but I'm beginning to wonder.

 

Streit with Provorov:  STUPID

MacDonald playing while Schultz is in the press box:  STUPID

Neuvirth in for 3 nights out of 4 when he's playing horribly anyway:  STUPID

The coach saying Neuvirth has earned this and is playing well:  STUPID

Schenn on the fourth line while Mr. Jello Boots continues to do absolutely nothing on the second line:  STUPID

 

Anyone else seeing a developing trend?

 

In the interest of being fair:

Konecny is playing well

Manning is still our most consistent defenseman

Voracek is back and Simmonds has been very good.

 

So, the coach is doing some things right.  But the first set is really glaring and really mind bedoggling.

[canoli]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But something is going on with Mason that he can't be trusted to take one start among 3 in 4 nights

 

wtf is with him anyway? No word out of the Flyers so far (that I've read). Another personal issue to start the season? Hurt?

 

As for Couturier he had a good first 3 or 4 games I think - then just disappeared (except for the TOs). I don't believe BSchenn is the answer at center though. He's done some fine damage on the wing and I'd like to leave him there. I don't mind giving Couturier 20-odd games to pick it up and figure it out - that he's a 2C and he damn well better start playing like one - but I'm with you...I'm quickly souring on him. And I don't mind admitting I'm one of his biggest fans around here.  Unrealistic, cock-eyed optimistic even...there was a time I thought he'd be a 70-pt forward given the right line mates, breaks, etc. Now? I hope he has a career year and hits 40!

[ruxpin]

10 minutes ago, canoli said:

And I don't mind admitting I'm one of his biggest fans around here.  Unrealistic, cock-eyed optimistic even...there was a time I thought he'd be a 70-pt forward given the right line mates, breaks, etc. Now? I hope he has a career year and hits 40!

 

Oh, I was right there with you.  You tend to be more optimistic than I, in general, but I was a staunch defender of the kid.  I still think he has value, but it's beginning to become clear (beginning for me, glaringly obvious to some others here) that offense might not be part of the equation for him.

 

10 minutes ago, canoli said:

I don't believe BSchenn is the answer at center though.

 

He's been playing center on the 4th line and has turned VV into a scorer (lol).  I think he would be an exponentially better option than Couturier at 2nd line (although probably not ultimately the "solution").  I'm willing to wait, as you say. But 20-odd games is rapidly approaching.

 

By the way, yeah Coots did start out well the first few games and then dropped off a ledge.  You kind of have to wonder what changed.

[OccamsRazor]

Well the good news is i didn't get a chance to watch. Sounds like it was a good idea to miss this from what i have read.

 

More good news is the Flyers aren't tied to either goaltender beyond this year....it's all i got...

 

....drinks for everyone!!!!!!!

 

[off_the_post]

Schenn needs to move to 2C. Because, well why not.  I like him more at wing too but didn't the flyers just trade a $4.5M 4C?

 

At least the games are interesting to watch.  A goalie would be nice.  Have to figure Mason is the start the next game.

 

Oh, can Flyers dress 7 dmen to make sure AMac gets his 41 games? 

[canoli]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

He's been playing center on the 4th line and has turned VV into a scorer (lol).

 

ha! good point! Seriously what the hell was BSchenn doing on the 4th line? He had 18:24 of ice time tonight according to NHL.COM so Hak must've tapped him a lot more often than VDV/Bellemare (each around 10:00).

 

Anyway I agree Couturier'd be an upgrade right now at 2C. The thing is even with his struggles that line is producing. They're all minuses it's true but just about all the Flyers' top 9 forwards are as well. Considering their production...I know I said 20 games but maybe January is more realistic. If it takes half a season to get Couturier going it's worth it.

 

Apparently his skating "is what it is" but I figure if Scott Hartnell can put up 30 goals...Bobby Ryan, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Smyth...Couturier skates as well or better than them. I realize it's not quite apples to apples, center vs wing and the amount of ice each has to cover. But I dwell on the flashes of creativity I've seen from Couturier and I hope for more. I must admit though at this point I've stopped expecting more.

 

[flyercanuck]

How the hell is Montreal the top team in the league?

 

Take Price out of the equation and I'd prefer the Flyers roster. And with our D, that's saying something. 

[brelic]

31 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

How the hell is Montreal the top team in the league?

 

Take Price out of the equation and I'd prefer the Flyers roster. And with our D, that's saying something. 

 

I had the same thoughts watching the game. Montreal does not impress me in the least. They are a groin pull away from a free fall!

 

[jackhole]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Couter as 3rd line center.  He's proven perfect for that role and really never given reason to be anything else.  It's only because he was a top 10 pick that we want to mash him into a round hole - he's a square peg folks and one of the best.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, jackhole said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Couter as 3rd line center.  He's proven perfect for that role and really never given reason to be anything else.  It's only because he was a top 10 pick that we want to mash him into a round hole - he's a square peg folks and one of the best.

Exactly !   That's so well put that i want to print it , frame it , and hang it on my wall. 

 

I really do think you're exactly right . 

[Howie58]

In prior years/posts I've set Black Friday as a "deadline" of sorts with regard to team performance. We'll have 20+ games under our belts which is a large enough sample to begin seeing trends. Last year, we saw by that time what a gem we'd have with Ghost. 

 

Something has to give on the goal front by then.  Our tandem may not be the only one with save percentage problems, and my backyard Reimer/Luongo duo are coming unglued on the PK.  But I can't see Hexy letting this go forever.  In a perverse way, you might say if it does--he's going to have a decision that might have been tough become a lot easier.  Bringing in a 3rd goalie would also be a test case.  If the team D is really the problem--than we have deeper issue, and that may touch on coaching. 

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

11 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

How the hell is Montreal the top team in the league?

 

They won't be for long.  

[icehole]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:53 PM, ruxpin said:

 

Oh, I was right there with you.  You tend to be more optimistic than I, in general, but I was a staunch defender of the kid.  I still think he has value, but it's beginning to become clear (beginning for me, glaringly obvious to some others here) that offense might not be part of the equation for him.

 

 

He's been playing center on the 4th line and has turned VV into a scorer (lol).  I think he would be an exponentially better option than Couturier at 2nd line (although probably not ultimately the "solution").  I'm willing to wait, as you say. But 20-odd games is rapidly approaching.

 

By the way, yeah Coots did start out well the first few games and then dropped off a ledge.  You kind of have to wonder what changed.

I don't think anything changed with couturier after the first few games, he is what he is.  He had 2 points in that first game, then he had 2 points in the next 11 or 12 games.  That's been his M.O.  I think that's why some people have the illusion that he is a good player, because they remember those multipoint games but don't remember the 10 game stretches without a point.  He's somewhat streaky, but he drops of the earth for way too long sometimes.

 

Now that the defensive side of his game is starting to slip, he is losing his purpose on this team.  Hopefully something will click but I'm not so sure it will.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I don't think anything changed with couturier after the first few games, he is what he is.  He had 2 points in that first game, then he had 2 points in the next 11 or 12 games.  That's been his M.O.  I think that's why some people have the illusion that he is a good player, because they remember those multipoint games but don't remember the 10 game stretches without a point.  He's somewhat streaky, but he drops of the earth for way too long sometimes.

 

Now that the defensive side of his game is starting to slip, he is losing his purpose on this team.  Hopefully something will click but I'm not so sure it will.

 

I think there's some truth there.  The first paragraph isn't really about me.  I was okay if he was "just" a defensive guy.  He was very very good at that.   If he contributed offense, that was bonus.  I did want to see him with better wingers and better offensive zone starts, etc., just to either confirm or rule out the "he's young, he's had lousy wingers, and his Corsi...blah blah blah."   I was willing to buy all that stuff, but this year was "show me."   I know we're only twelve games in, but that's 15% of the season.  He has shown he's a little behind the play with his skating.   He's not hampering his wingers.  They're scoring.   If they continue to score and he takes care of defense, maybe that's not a horrible thing.

 

Except...

 

I completely agree with your second paragraph.   I haven't seen particularly good defensive play from him (or anyone on the team, really).  I don't think that's his skating.   So I'm not sure what to think is going on there.   I don't know what the picture is behind the stats, but eye test is that he simply hasn't been good.  

[icehole]

27 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I think there's some truth there.  The first paragraph isn't really about me.  I was okay if he was "just" a defensive guy.  He was very very good at that.   If he contributed offense, that was bonus.  I did want to see him with better wingers and better offensive zone starts, etc., just to either confirm or rule out the "he's young, he's had lousy wingers, and his Corsi...blah blah blah."   I was willing to buy all that stuff, but this year was "show me."   I know we're only twelve games in, but that's 15% of the season.  He has shown he's a little behind the play with his skating.   He's not hampering his wingers.  They're scoring.   If they continue to score and he takes care of defense, maybe that's not a horrible thing.

 

Except...

 

I completely agree with your second paragraph.   I haven't seen particularly good defensive play from him (or anyone on the team, really).  I don't think that's his skating.   So I'm not sure what to think is going on there.   I don't know what the picture is behind the stats, but eye test is that he simply hasn't been good.  

I think we're on the same page.  I'm always a little hard on him, but deep down I thought he could help the team...even if it wasn't obvious.

 

This was (is) a show me year.  I've been hearing "bad linemates", "defensive zone starts", "good PKer", "not enough PP appearances" for years now.  I semi-believed the "linemates" theory, defensive zone starts isn't on my radar, he's known as sort of the leader of the PK and yet the flyers are a solid 20th-25th in the league during his PK leadership, and there has to be a reason he didn't get PP time.

 

This year, the linemates seem to be doing OK, defensive zone starts still aren't on my radar so I'm not sure, PK is still a sore spot, and he shares about 1/2 of the PP time.  What does that do for him...5 points in 13 games....3 points in the last 12.  

 

Not looking good.

[brelic]

@ruxpin

I know we’re only twelve games in, but that’s 15% of the season. He has shown he’s a little behind the play with his skating.

He’s going to be 24 a month from today, with 363 GP. I don’t know, I’m starting to feel he’s a lot like Coburn. Great pedigree, high draft position, high expectations, but just lacking one or two major elements to fulfill that potential at this level.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that - so why doesn’t the team just treat him that way? He gets chance after chance after chance, and fails to deliver on offense.

This situation, to me, is as ridiculous as putting Ghost on the top pairing to be the shutdown guy. It’s not his game, so quit trying to force it.

[mojo1917]

RE: Couturier

the whole "past performance as indicator of potential future success" is looking more and more like an aberration with 14.  The past performance from his time as a back to back 90+ point scorer in the Q is starting to be quite a long time ago.  The thing i'm noticing when i've watched the Flyers and him is I don't see him battling for and contesting pucks very often, it almost appears as though he is shying away from contact.  Maybe this isn't the case all the time but I've seen plays where he's made a bad pass / mishandled a puck on an outlet and hasn't made an effort to get back into the play.  He's looked lazy to me this year You can still see he sees the ice well but he hasn't been as engaged physically as he's been in the past. 

i don't know, I don't think he's a bad player but he's not Ron Francis part deux either.

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

RE: Couturier

the whole "past performance as indicator of potential future success" is looking more and more like an aberration with 14.  The past performance from his time as a back to back 90+ point scorer in the Q is starting to be quite a long time ago.  The thing i'm noticing when i've watched the Flyers and him is I don't see him battling for and contesting pucks very often, it almost appears as though he is shying away from contact.  Maybe this isn't the case all the time but I've seen plays where he's made a bad pass / mishandled a puck on an outlet and hasn't made an effort to get back into the play.  He's looked lazy to me this year You can still see he sees the ice well but he hasn't been as engaged physically as he's been in the past. 

i don't know, I don't think he's a bad player but he's not Ron Francis part deux either.

 

The time and space that was there in juniors just isn't there in the NHL and with his lack of speed he just is what he is. He is suited for the 3rd line defensive shutdown center we have seen before this past year.

 

So Hak when he is convinced of that just needs to return him there. Then they can move on and try to figure who can be the 2nd line center.

 

This is not to rag on Coots like some have i'm ok with him being a 3rd line center.

[icehole]

17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

RE: Couturier

the whole "past performance as indicator of potential future success" is looking more and more like an aberration with 14.  The past performance from his time as a back to back 90+ point scorer in the Q is starting to be quite a long time ago.  The thing i'm noticing when i've watched the Flyers and him is I don't see him battling for and contesting pucks very often, it almost appears as though he is shying away from contact.  Maybe this isn't the case all the time but I've seen plays where he's made a bad pass / mishandled a puck on an outlet and hasn't made an effort to get back into the play.  He's looked lazy to me this year You can still see he sees the ice well but he hasn't been as engaged physically as he's been in the past. 

i don't know, I don't think he's a bad player but he's not Ron Francis part deux either.

Sometimes I wonder if players might have a certain peak to their game that allows them to succeed at a lower level but hit a wall at a higher level.  There was a lot of promise from his junior years, and if you sent him back there, he'd probably score another 90+.  But maybe that's his peak for being better than average.

 

We like to project how a player will play at a higher level by looking at his success at the lower levels.  Just a hypothetical, provorov is projected to be a great player because he was at the top of the lower leagues.  So far, I haven't seen any aspects of his game that will make him a star NHL player.  So is there a possibility that his skills are just better suited for juniors or other lower leagues?  I'm not saying that's the case because I know he can mature after the age of 19.  It just scares me because I do see those skills from TK and other 19 yr olds.  I do see those skills from other rookies (Ghost from last year).

 

I don't know how to explain it but it's sort of like college football vs NFL.  How many Heisman winners have done nothing in the NFL?  Why is that?  They were the best in college so why aren't they the best at the pro level?  Essentially, the pro players are the same players they played against in college, but they matured into bigger, stronger, smarter players.  That Heisman player maybe just peaked in college while other players keep growing and peak 5 or 10 years into their pro career.

[brelic]

@icehole

So is there a possibility that his skills are just better suited for juniors or other lower leagues? I’m not saying that’s the case because I know he can mature after the age of 19. It just scares me because I do see those skills from TK and other 19 yr olds. I do see those skills from other rookies (Ghost from last year).

That’s the thing - in 13 career NHL games, both Konecny and Provorov have shown more offensive acumen than Couturier has in 6 NHL seasons. Why should we expect that to change?

And the big difference I’ve noticed between Konecny’s game and Couturier’s game is tenacity. Konecny wants that damn puck every single time he’s on the ice, so he does everything he can to get it and make things happen. I have never seen that from Couturier.

 

[mojo1917]

14 minutes ago, icehole said:

We like to project how a player will play at a higher level by looking at his success at the lower levels.  Just a hypothetical, provorov is projected to be a great player because he was at the top of the lower leagues.  So far, I haven't seen any aspects of his game that will make him a star NHL player.  So is there a possibility that his skills are just better suited for juniors or other lower leagues?

Ivan has + size,  ++ skating  +++ puck handling skills +++ hockey IQ.

When I watch him I can see where he can be a top pairing guy.  I can, I'm not alone.  He is having trouble with the speed of the NHL , his playing partner is shot, and he's been facing the top lines from some very good teams night in and night out, he's 19 and is doing okay...but if, and i think it will happen, the game slows down for him then his physical attributes can help him to become a top pairing guy who can handle the minutes he's seeing now, better. You have to give a young guy room to grow.  Just because he's lost an edge or made an incredibly stupid pass once in a while doesn't mean he doesn't have "it" defense is the hardest of the positions to play well and at 19 he's doing it in the best league in the world, right off the bat, he's not being shielded with his minutes and who he's playing against,  Only freaks like Ekblad who had a full beard and 3 children at 14 can step in on D and be "the man" . Duncan Keith wasn't "Duncan Keith " in his first 20 games either.  I don't see where having Ivan be the best player in his junior league again promotes the growth we want to see.

 

Couturier has always had "skating concerns" his first step while better isn't very good in today's NHL and he doesn't seem to use his large frame to shield the puck from checkers as I think he should... he's so big, he should be able to fend guys off way better than he does. 

 

As for the NFL , that's a whole different ball of twine. and I've typed too much already,  Let's just say the spread offense doesn't work well when everyone can run sub 4.6 on defense. 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

The thing i'm noticing when i've watched the Flyers and him is I don't see him battling for and contesting pucks very often, it almost appears as though he is shying away from contact.

 

I see this exact same thing.   The foot speed (or lack of) isn't new, but the above is to me.

 

So, excuses being what they are, I'll ask anyway:  Is he out of place on the 2nd line (not in terms of scoring; just belonging) or is he fighting some physical thing they haven't publicized?  I would certainly buy the former, but I'm wondering about the latter.

[OccamsRazor]

46 minutes ago, brelic said:

Konecny wants that damn puck every single time he’s on the ice

 

 

And you can't teach that.

 

At the end of the day you either have it or you don't.

 

For example not sure if you watch football or the Eagles but the Eagles landed this huge WR with all the tools in the tool shed.

 

He is 6-5 240 pounds. Runs a 4.3 40 yard time. But he don't have that go get attitude you mentioned about TK.

 

I constantly see him just go through the motions and see him not be able to get off press coverage from a 5-10 190 cornerback.

 

WTF???

 

How the f**k are you going to get outmuscled by a guy you out weigh by 50 damn pounds and are bigger than by 7 inches???

 

I'll tell you. HEART!!! That want to run through a wall mentality...to do whatever it takes to outplay the other guy.

 

Dorial Green Beckham doesn't have IT!!! And you can't teach him to want too.

 

Sure you can bitch at him and he may change or a play or two or even a game or two but in the end he will go back to being who he is. Tiger can't change his stripes.

 

And no to go off on this tangent about a football player but it is the way i can describe what i see. Coots (however nowhere as bad as DGB) does show traits of his lack of want to go get it.

 

Some kids these days just don't have that fire burning in them that makes them want to be the best they can be. SUCKS!