Game 11: Flyers at Pens; 10/29/19 @ 7:00

[radoran]

27 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I hate every other team, and think that the nhl only exists so the flyers have somewhere to play

 

I hear you - I've just found that when I catch some of another game while scrolling through channels that I remember why I like this game.

 

[OccamsRazor]

31 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I hear you - I've just found that when I catch some of another game while scrolling through channels that I remember why I like this game.

 

 

 

 

Bingo...

[OccamsRazor]

@radoran

 

And then this gem from the Captain...

 

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Howdy:

 

I had some "grape juice" with lite bite and took a walk...more important than watching a debacle.  When I came back and saw 79 in goal, I knew the bleep hit the fan.  

 

The Pens broadcast team noted the experience of Flyers' coaching.  Yeah...will it get this gang in shape?  Can this gang be gotten into shape?

 

I haven't watched enough of the games to discern whether the problem is the D-corps itself or team defensive play. But if it is the former, and the forwards aren't doing much to help, they are still part of the problem. It's a team game.

 

Fix it. 

[brelic]

@OccamsRazor

 

I mean, what else are they supposed to say? 

 

Imagine having to give interviews after every single game - when you know that your team will lose about HALF those games?

 

Fifteen teams last year lost more than 50% of their games, which includes the Avalanche who qualified for the playoffs while losing 44 games. 

 

And unless you were the Lightning, no team lost fewer than 32 games. 

 

The fact that it's been going on for 7-8 years with the Flyers is definitely concerning - but what's Couturier gonna answer? 3 GMs, 4 coaches, and probably 2x roster turnover. Same results. 

 

And Couturier is not the problem. 

 

This team has been mired in mediocrity for nearly a decade, and they've yet to find a solution to it. 

 

 

 

 

[vis]

At least the quotes have become angry.  Last year they would have been talking about moral victories and BS.  The lip service has improved.  Let's see if the game does.

 

Vigneault had some choice words, implying that guys who don't play the right way might lose their spots (it was in Carchidi's column, but I can't access it at work).   Would be nice if **** starts hitting the fan.  Kind of had it with the BS.  

[notfondajane]

10 minutes ago, vis said:

At least the quotes have become angry.  Last year they would have been talking about moral victories and BS.  The lip service has improved.  Let's see if the game does.

 

Vigneault had some choice words, implying that guys who don't play the right way might lose their spots (it was in Carchidi's column, but I can't access it at work).   Would be nice if **** starts hitting the fan.  Kind of had it with the BS.  

Wishful thinking

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, brelic said:

@OccamsRazor

 

I mean, what else are they supposed to say? 

 

Imagine having to give interviews after every single game - when you know that your team will lose about HALF those games?

 

Fifteen teams last year lost more than 50% of their games, which includes the Avalanche who qualified for the playoffs while losing 44 games. 

 

And unless you were the Lightning, no team lost fewer than 32 games. 

 

The fact that it's been going on for 7-8 years with the Flyers is definitely concerning - but what's Couturier gonna answer? 3 GMs, 4 coaches, and probably 2x roster turnover. Same results. 

 

And Couturier is not the problem. 

 

This team has been mired in mediocrity for nearly a decade, and they've yet to find a solution to it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right.

 

Rinse and repeat.

[vis]

Just now, notfondajane said:

Wishful thinking

Well, he's relegated Voracek to fourth line duty at times.  Others might find their way there or to press box.  I don't think AV will make empty threats.  Doesn't strike me as the type and the sense I get is that Fletcher has his back.  Except for Hayes, Fletcher has little history with these players.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

You're right.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

Since 2011, here are the teams ranked by pts %.

 

1    Pittsburgh    0.644
2    Washington    0.635
3    Boston    0.634
4    St. Louis    0.633
5    Vegas    0.616
6    Tampa Bay    0.614
7    Anaheim    0.61
8    Chicago    0.606
9    Nashville    0.6
10    San Jose    0.598
11    NY Rangers    0.586
12    Minnesota    0.567
13    Montreal    0.565
14    Los Angeles    0.563
15    Phoenix    0.559
16    NY Isles    0.558
17    Winnipeg    0.557
18    Philadelphia    0.557
19    Dallas    0.553
20    Columbus    0.547
21    Calgary    0.536
22    Detroit    0.535
23    Toronto    0.529
24    Vancouver    0.527
25    Florida    0.526
26    Colorado    0.522
27    Ottawa    0.518
28    Carolina    0.513
29    New Jersey    0.511
30    Edmonton    0.469
31    Arizona    0.445
32    Buffalo    0.441
 

Now, the top part isn't interesting because we already know they're the top teams. They're the cup winners and cup contenders over the past decade.

 

What's more interesting is the bottom of the list - Buffalo, Edmonton, NJ, Carolina, Colorado, Toronto.... these teams are emerging now as very strong teams that will probably be competitive for the next decade, precisely because they were bad for so long and got a strong infusion of elite talent in the draft.

 

Philly at 18 is the definition of mediocrity. Not good enough to compete, not bad enough to have consistent top 10 picks. We lucked in to Patrick at #2, but there's a massive gulf between him and, say, Eichel. Can you imagine if our lucky lottery year was Eichel? Or Laine? Or even Svechnikov (12 points in 12 games this year)? Patrick isn't even playing hockey right now. Bad luck for him, and bad luck for the team.

 

I love TK and Patrick and Provorov and Sanheim. But they're no Rantanen, Eichel, Dahlin, or Heiskanen. The talent gap is real.

 

So, does mediocrity over the past 8 years mean we weren't "bad" enough to truly be competitive for the next decade?

 

Jury's out, but damn, it feels like it's taking forever to turn this around and is easily the Flyers' most frustrating decade as a fan. 

 

Honestly, the worst case scenario is that we are mediocre for another decade. 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

I love TK and Patrick and Provorov and Sanheim. But they're no Rantanen, Eichel, Dahlin, or Heiskanen. The talent gap is real.

 

 

I agree about the talent gap problem. Past Flyers teams were never the most talented in the league but they were always worked harder than every other team. They were tough and tenacious and never quit and always had great leaders. The 1985 and 1987 team for example.Other than Konecny and  Coots who else on this team shows up every night. I see a bunch of physically and mentally soft players and no real leadership. A bold move is needed to shake up this team . I would say trade Voracek but who wants him and his 9 million $ contract? 

[OccamsRazor]

Vigneault Says Some Players Aren't What He Expected And Team Is Being Evaluated.

 

“Some guys we may have thought previously were capable of doing things, whether it be moving the puck [or something else]. … and when you see them live, they may not be exactly what you anticipated,” he said. “We have decisions to make. Chuck [Fletcher, the general manager] and I are talking constantly about our group and that’s what we’ll continue to do until we’re happy.” 

“I still don’t have quite yet the handle on our group. We still have some players I’ve seen do things the way they need to be done to win, but I’ve also seen them do it the other way, so I don’t know if they can do it consistently."

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by OccamsRazor

[OccamsRazor]

Sounds to me like a change is coming soon.

 

And by that I can see a roster move taking place.

 

And I don't mean just someone being sent down.

 

I mean someone sent packing.

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Vigneault Says Some Players Aren't What He Expected And Team Is Being Evaluated.

 

“Some guys we may have thought previously were capable of doing things, whether it be moving the puck [or something else]. … and when you see them live, they may not be exactly what you anticipated,” he said. “We have decisions to make. Chuck [Fletcher, the general manager] and I are talking constantly about our group and that’s what we’ll continue to do until we’re happy.” 

“I still don’t have quite yet the handle on our group. We still have some players I’ve seen do things the way they need to be done to win, but I’ve also seen them do it the other way, so I don’t know if they can do it consistently."

 

 

I'll save him the trouble , Voracek cannot carry the puck and Ghost cannot play defense , Shitlick is useless and you need to acquire a true leader for this team.

[tucson83]

11 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I'll save him the trouble , Voracek cannot carry the puck and Ghost cannot play defense , Shitlick is useless and you need to acquire a true leader for this team.

 

i agree but who for example?

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

So it seems one part of the equation is to help the bottom 6 out with some better talent.

 

And i guess someone else can answer the blueline issues...i got no answers there...

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I agree about the talent gap problem. Past Flyers teams were never the most talented in the league but they were always worked harder than every other team. They were tough and tenacious and never quit and always had great leaders. The 1985 and 1987 team for example.

 

I'll note first that I agree with your post. I just want to add a bit to it.

 

The game as it is played today is quite different from the 80s. For one thing, players are as a whole significantly more talented, trained, and prepared to the Nth degree with videos and every coach/counsellor/trainer/nutritionist/etc you can imagine. There is really no comparison in terms of the sheer talent and skill on display between now and the 80s, even less so the foolish amount of support they receive once they reach the big league.

 

At the same time, cap realities are a thing now, whereas they were not in the 80s either. It was entirely possible for franchises to just buy a team that would almost invariably end up being very good to great. That's not possible nowadays. The cap era has brought about huge equalization between teams, which is clear by virtually any metric we might care to look at.

 

So how do those same half dozen teams remain contenders for so long? Well, for one I think @brelic is right in his assessment of the importance of top level talent. And by top level, I really mean top level. The kind of guy you only get when you're picking way at the top, and likely for at least 2-3 years. We've talked about this before, but essentially any team we can look at that has been considered a true contender in the past decade plus has had the benefit of top picks on their rosters. That's clearly not an accident.

 

So cup pressures are one. Another issue with the NHL of 2019 is that there are over 30 teams, which again only serves to dilute talent even further. Combining those two situations together, we have a league where having a McDavid is as effective as having 3-4 Giroux. Get a second one in Draisaitl, and you're just going to outright win half your games, even if you have to score a dozen goals to do so.

 

It's annoying and stupid, but it really looks like the winning formula in this cap era is sucking badly enough that you get top picks, and often for more than one year. As @brelic well noted, the Flyers have been on the bubble for so long, they've just never had that opportunity. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity in the modern NHL.

Edited October 31, 2019 by elmatus

[CoachX]

56 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I'll note first that I agree with your post. I just want to add a bit to it.

 

The game as it is played today is quite different from the 80s. For one thing, players are as a whole significantly more talented, trained, and prepared to the Nth degree with videos and every coach/counsellor/trainer/nutritionist/etc you can imagine. There is really no comparison in terms of the sheer talent and skill on display between now and the 80s, even less so the foolish amount of support they receive once they reach the big league.

 

At the same time, cap realities are a thing now, whereas they were not in the 80s either. It was entirely possible for franchises to just buy a team that would almost invariably end up being very good to great. That's not possible nowadays. The cap era has brought about huge equalization between teams, which is clear by virtually any metric we might care to look at.

 

So how do those same half dozen teams remain contenders for so long? Well, for one I think @brelic is right in his assessment of the importance of top level talent. And by top level, I really mean top level. The kind of guy you only get when you're picking way at the top, and likely for at least 2-3 years. We've talked about this before, but essentially any team we can look at that has been considered a true contender in the past decade plus has had the benefit of top picks on their rosters. That's clearly not an accident.

 

So cup pressures are one. Another issue with the NHL of 2019 is that there are over 30 teams, which again only serves to dilute talent even further. Combining those two situations together, we have a league where having a McDavid is as effective as having 3-4 Giroux. Get a second one in Draisaitl, and you're just going to outright win half your games, even if you have to score a dozen goals to do so.

 

It's annoying and stupid, but it really looks like the winning formula in this cap era is sucking badly enough that you get top picks, and often for more than one year. As @brelic well noted, the Flyers have been on the bubble for so long, they've just never had that opportunity. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity in the modern NHL.

I disagree. During the specific time periods 85 and 87, the league was dominated by gretz and mario, who were putting up numbers todays stars just cant duplicate

 And it was being done when clutching, grabbing, hitting and fighting were prevalent. You would expect offensive ability would be stifled in that setting

 

Todays game is kinder and gentler (boring). Players are coddled because its a business. But i agree with your point of diluted talent.  In terms of the flyers, they have never seemed to figure out how to compete in this era. I suspect it has alot to do with bad management and piss poor player handling

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

i agree but who for example?

I would like either of the Tkachuk brothers, or Bo Horvat.  they play old time Flyer hockey, have skill, stand up for teammates and can be leaders for young team. We could probably also use an older leader as well, but the problem is the vets are grossly overpriced and washed up, for example Getzlaf. I know there is no chance of getting Horvat or the Tkachuks,but we n some player who play fire and emotion.

Edited October 31, 2019 by RonJeremy

[OccamsRazor]

49 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I suspect it has alot to do with bad management and piss poor player handling

 

That and not really having a goal scorer....just a bunch of glorified passers.

 

I mean the last time they had just a 40 goal scorer was 2008-09 and his name was Jeff Carter.

 

Then Gagne before that in back to back years 2005-06 and 2006-07.

 

Before that??

 

1999-2000 John Leclair.

 

I mean if you think about it that is only 3 pure goal scorers in 19 years. That is terrible i think.

 

pass pass pass pass

 

You have to score to win games...and well they just don't do that very well i think. Combine that with struggling to keep it out your own net and well here we are...

[RonJeremy]

@OccamsRazor I have been saying for years we need to draft a finisher but we go for the two way player in the first round most of the time. We passed on Caufield and Boldy the two best pure goal scorers and picked a dman, but we did take Brink in the second round. Right now we have four potential finishers, Ratcliffe, Allison,  Brink and Farabee. Two big guys and two small guys. If two of them can pan out it, will be a big help, but other than Farabee the others are 2 years away from being any kind of factor for the Flyers.

[CoachX]

Didnt someone post it earlier....

 

"The flyers are 2 years away from being 2 years away"

[tucson83]

13 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

So it seems one part of the equation is to help the bottom 6 out with some better talent.

 

And i guess someone else can answer the blueline issues...i got no answers there...

 

i think the young d is hurting us, that's the answer. i remember in 07 when this team was consistant, we had alot of experienced d and a solid goalie named biron, after pronger got injuried, timms wasnt healthy, we traded the vet d away, this team wasnt the same, very inconsitant. no one may not like this idea but i think they have to get more experience on d.

[elmatus]

32 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

no one may not like this idea but i think they have to get more experience on d.

 

I don't think many would argue, but we may be quick to point to a certain Matt Niskanen and Justin Braun. Others might also float the name of a certain Shayne Gostisbehere, who is definitely firmly in the veteran category at this point.

 

Now granted, Niskanen has been doing quite well paired with Provo, and Braun hasn't been a complete failure (though he's definitely no more than a 4th or so). Our real struggles on defense include Morin (very understandable), Sanheim (still pretty understandable), Hagg (no surprise), and Ghost (a big problem imo).

 

I like the call up for Myers, though I doubt he's going to be a real savior either (nor should we expect him to be). Maybe he can slot in on the second pairing with Braun and run with that for a while. Of course that means a Sanheim/Ghost third pairing, which isn't ideal with the way they're both playing. Gotta play with the cards you're dealt though.

 

I'll say yet again that Ghost should be moved. Give Provo his spot on PP1 and be done with it. Get what you can for him as a PP specialist from a team that needs a PP specialist, and bring in someone whose strength is actually playing defense. We need that more. 

 

@brelic #GetFletchOnThePhone

Edited October 31, 2019 by elmatus

[mojo1917]

Well I hated that result, I hated watching for as long as I did, I think the fact that I hate the Pens with the fire of a million burning suns and then my guys go out and suck like they've never sucked since I've been a fan was disheartening. At the least. 

Our guys made that mediocre team look like the goddamned 74 Soviets.  So many skaters not moving their feet it was hideous to watch, no-name ****** scrubs outworking 3 of our guys ... could not stand to see that.

So like everyone else, I'm unhappy with this team.

 

I don't think 4 bad results and 2 poorly played games is reason to trade all the people and fire all the things. 

I am resigned to understand that this will be a "process" and not every night is going to be awesome. 

There's some young guys who hopefully are learning to bring a pro level game to the rink every night.

There are some guys that don't really play hockey too well, Stewart, I'm sorry he's a good bloke but he's done.

 

That the night these guys all chose to **** the bed was against the Pens isn't helping anyone to back away from the ledge. 

I still think this team could be pretty good.

It also seems as though AV is learning about this team and maybe some changes are coming. The fresh set of eyes is welcomed, if a trade makes the team harder to play against and ultimately winners of more games, then I welcome that outcome.