Game 32: Devils at Flyers; 3/23/21 @ 7, NBCSP

[Fizz]

5 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

I think we are seeing the failure of Hextall's build from within vision, due to two indisputable facts:

 

1.  Hextall never tore the team all the way down and built the assets up by trading Giroux, Voracek, Simmons, etc. when he first arrived.  There was never any chance those players were still going to be good when the young prospects developed.

 

2.  Hextall failed to draft a single superstar and please don't tell me Hart and Provorov are superstars.

Hart will be, I have no doubt of that.

[ruxpin]

20 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

It's ok we don't have to agree. It's a hockey forum. Remember it's supposed to be fun too.

 

And if we all agreed then it wouldn't be fun.

 

And I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. Don't stress.

 

I enjoy new folks here. We can all vent together less at each other.

 

It's all good.

 

 

For whatever it's worth, @Fizz, I'm with OC here.    Smarm aside, the discussion is good.

 

What I wonder, and people here brought it up when they assembled the bunch--is this:   Is Mike Yeo a problem?   He has been nearly everywhere.  Is Michel Therien the best guy to be running a power play?   Are we seeing the affects of 3 head coaches in a room?   I don't know the answer to these questions, but they're valid questions.  So is questioning whether AV is the right guy.

 

My only thing here is that while that all may be a recipe to disaster, the point remains that there's been something fatally wrong with every single coach.   At some point, when you've checked and replaced every other part of the machine but one (goalie, coach, GM, repeat <clap> goalie, coach, GM, <clap clap> goalie, coach, GM....) and when you've replaced the supporting cast a few times, maybe it's time to take a look at the marquee players.

[CoachX]

9 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Honest question, do you think Giroux would agree to be traded to a contender?

On face value, NO. He is climbing the Flyer record ladder and will be remembered by his stats more than his results. It was suggested that being away from wife and kid last season really hit him hard. No fault there, but it gives insight to his priorities.  Im sure he can see a future in the organization long after he hangs 'em up

 

However, if the organization applies some pressure, makes a deal that will benefit him, and offers a home after he's done, i could see it

[Fizz]

7 minutes ago, CoachX said:

On face value, NO. He is climbing the Flyer record ladder and will be remembered by his stats more than his results. It was suggested that being away from wife and kid last season really hit him hard. No fault there, but it gives insight to his priorities.  Im sure he can see a future in the organization long after he hangs 'em up

 

However, if the organization applies some pressure, makes a deal that will benefit him, and offers a home after he's done, i could see it

That IMO is another problem with the Flyer organization, keeping retired players around.

[CoachX]

3 minutes ago, Fizz said:

That IMO is another problem with the Flyer organization, keeping retired players around.

I think its the key issue. 

 

You build a house on a weak foundation, it will fall down easily. If the common denominator for this group is the core players, the common denominator for the organization starts with Clarke and Holmgren

[tucson83]

28 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

For whatever it's worth, @Fizz, I'm with OC here.    Smarm aside, the discussion is good.

 

What I wonder, and people here brought it up when they assembled the bunch--is this:   Is Mike Yeo a problem?   He has been nearly everywhere.  Is Michel Therien the best guy to be running a power play?   Are we seeing the affects of 3 head coaches in a room?   I don't know the answer to these questions, but they're valid questions.  So is questioning whether AV is the right guy.

 

My only thing here is that while that all may be a recipe to disaster, the point remains that there's been something fatally wrong with every single coach.   At some point, when you've checked and replaced every other part of the machine but one (goalie, coach, GM, repeat <clap> goalie, coach, GM, <clap clap> goalie, coach, GM....) and when you've replaced the supporting cast a few times, maybe it's time to take a look at the marquee players.

let's make another example look at washington and pittsburgh when they had not so good coaches but they still won games and made runs because of core being so good, heck look at our sixers with brett, i mean this team was winning because of embiid and simmons being so good, without them, this team would be tanking.

 

giroux and jake werent stars, they were ok players that kept us from tanking but they werent the players that were going to get us over the hump. that's the difference between us and what washington and pittsburgh has.

 

that's the reality of this fanbase to has to open up, our core isnt good and that's the fact. if it was we would have won 3 cups and not going through 5 coaches.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by tucson83

[radoran]

This team's PK hasn't been in the top half since 2013-14.

 

They haven't been top 10 in PP since 2015-16.

 

We can kvetch about Yeo and Therien all we want, but the lack of creativity and predictable nature of the special teams has been a function of the players actually playing the game on the ice more than it has been a "coaching issue."

 

I've now again this week seen players talking about how they are on "a playoff team." Braun earlier and now Giroux.

 

This team has to STOP playing like a team that thinks they are in the playoffs and START playing like a team that's afraid of missing them.

 

This team has missed the playoffs four of the past eight years and has won one playoff round since 2013.

 

That's not "a playoff team."

[pilldoc]

13 minutes ago, Fizz said:

That IMO is another problem with the Flyer organization, keeping retired players around.

That is a WHOLE another discussion that requires its in thread.... but yeah there is something to that.

[pilldoc]

10 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I think its the key issue. 

 

You build a house on a weak foundation, it will fall down easily. If the common denominator for this group is the core players, the common denominator for the organization starts with Clarke and Holmgren

Been saying that for years.... the good ol’ boys club.

 

Absolutely agree....

[tucson83]

12 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I think its the key issue. 

 

You build a house on a weak foundation, it will fall down easily. If the common denominator for this group is the core players, the common denominator for the organization starts with Clarke and Holmgren

the bigger problem was throwing money at giroux and jake that was the downfall of this organization.

[Fizz]

Although I still think AV is a below average coach you guys are making great points about our core being weak and leaderless. 

I see your points and I do agree with them. But I still maintain that it is the coach's job to put a system in place that suits the players he has. It's Fletcher's job to bring in players to fit a system. If these two people aren't on the same page you get what the Flyers are now. A rudderless ship with no leadership.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when AV was in NY did he not have Messier as the captain?

 

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, Fizz said:

Although I still think AV is a below average coach you guys are making great points about our core being weak and leaderless. 

I see your points and I do agree with them. But I still maintain that it is the coach's job to put a system in place that suits the players he has. It's Fletcher's job to bring in players to fit a system. If these two people aren't on the same page you get what the Flyers are now. A rudderless ship with no leadership.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when AV was in NY did he not have Messier as the captain?

 

You are wrong. He did not. Vigneault was coach of the Rangers from 2013-16...by then, of course, Messier was long gone as an NHL player.

[Fizz]

1 minute ago, FD19372 said:

You are wrong. He did not. Vigneault was coach of the Rangers from 2013-16...by then, of course, Messier was long gone as an NHL player.

Ok thanks, I wasn't sure

[fan4ever]

I must say, I haven't watched a Flyers' game since the 9-0 nightmare against the Rangers....if it wasn't for the major stress at work right now, I'd be stress free.  Nothing worse than a day full of stress to come home and watch these bums!  

 

Try it.  I think I'm out for the season!!! 

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

the bigger problem was throwing money at giroux and jake that was the downfall of this organization.

 

and many NMC on many of contracts. At one point didn't this team have like 6 or 7 players with a NMC.  As of right now the only players with a NMC are Giroux and Hayes.

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but when AV was in NY did he not have Messier as the captain?

AV came to the Rangers in 2013-14.....Messier was long gone....

 

EDIT: ... oopps I  see @FD19372 already beat me to the answer ....

Edited March 24, 2021 by pilldoc

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

Although I still think AV is a below average coach you guys are making great points about our core being weak and leaderless. 

I see your points and I do agree with them. But I still maintain that it is the coach's job to put a system in place that suits the players he has. It's Fletcher's job to bring in players to fit a system. If these two people aren't on the same page you get what the Flyers are now. A rudderless ship with no leadership.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when AV was in NY did he not have Messier as the captain?

 

 

No worries ... you made some valid points about AV, its just when you add in the problems with the core players, in essence a perfect storm of failure has been created.

 

I am curious wanting to know what exactly was said in AV's interview for the coaching position.  How much say is he having in player personnel? If any at all.  Many of us applauded the fact they went outside the organization for GM BUT how much say do Homer and Clarkie have in the makeup of this team?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but when AV was in NY did he not have Messier as the captain?

 

Ryan McDonagh and he was only 25.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

But I still maintain that it is the coach's job to put a system in place that suits the players he has.

 

I think he has we saw them last year before the stoppage as one of the hottest teams in the NHL.

 

The difference is they aren't executing like they should, you can draw up all the plays and schemes all you want but at the end of the day the players have to recognize and process at an extremely fast rate they have to be on the same page and then execute what they are taught.

 

I wish my parents would have blamed my teachers in high school when i struggled in my sophomore and junior years with bad grades, because i was to busy chasing women than studying back in the day.

 

That would have been nice.

 

But no they weren't falling for that because it was on me.

 

And only could fix it...thankfully 30+ years ago i did buckle down and get my grades up....

[Fizz]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I think he has we saw them last year before the stoppage as one of the hottest teams in the NHL.

 

The difference is they aren't executing like they should, you can draw up all the plays and schemes all you want but at the end of the day the players have to recognize and process at an extremely fast rate they have to be on the same page and then execute what they are taught.

 

I wish my parents would have blamed my teachers in high school when i struggled in my sophomore and junior years with bad grades, because i was to busy chasing women than studying back in the day.

 

That would have been nice.

 

But no they weren't falling for that because it was on me.

 

And only could fix it...thankfully 30+ years ago i did buckle down and get my grades up....

LOL, if you were paid millions of dollars to excel at school maybe the teachers would have changed their teaching style to help you to succeed.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

You are wrong. He did not. Vigneault was coach of the Rangers from 2013-16...by then, of course, Messier was long gone as an NHL player.

Dave Maloney may or may not have been there by then, too.

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Dave Maloney may or may not have been there by then, too.

Ron Duguay, as well.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I think he has we saw them last year before the stoppage as one of the hottest teams in the NHL.

 

The difference is they aren't executing like they should, you can draw up all the plays and schemes all you want but at the end of the day the players have to recognize and process at an extremely fast rate they have to be on the same page and then execute what they are taught

They also have to have the drive and desire to want to

 

I love conspiracy theories. Here's a thought. Maybe what we are seeing is the organization is behind the coach, and not willing to acquiesce to the players.  The players don't like the coach and his no nonsense style,  so they are just not willing to play for him

 

I doubt that's it, but im bored and hungry

[SCFlyguy]

The only way you could view the poor state of the Flyers as being primarily on the coaches as opposed to the players and current/former GMs is if you vastly overrated the players we have, especially the younger players.

 

G and V are good players but in no way capable of carrying a team at this point.  Being angry at them for what they are now is stupid.  The Flyers need 2-3 more players as good as G in his prime for this team to be a contender.

 

As it is, this team has zero players as good a G in his prime.  Not one guy Hextall drafted and who has played in the NHL to date looks like he is going to be a perennial all-star/borderline HOFer.  Hart theoretically could but he could just as easily be a one year bust at this point.

Edited March 25, 2021 by SCFlyguy

[GratefulFlyers]

28 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

G and V are good players but in no way capable of carrying a team at this point. 

 

I guess it depends what you mean by "carrying the team." Just this season we've seen them combine for clutch goals that won games for the Flyers. But if you mean carry them to PO wins and eventually the Cup...they need a lot more help than they're getting now. Giroux is about 0.8pts/game and JV is about 0.9, which isn't too bad.

 

I get the feeling a lot fans here are "done" with Giroux and Voracek. To me neither one cracks the Top Ten of the Flyers' problems this year. I do yell at Voracek the most (!) followed by Hayes and for the same reason, trying to beat 3 defenders by themself. But l think the Flyers' problems lie elsewhere.