What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[CoachX]

10 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I hope all is well.  Here is a take on three departures based on an assumption the core is the problem:

https://thehockeywriters.com/flyers-should-cut-ties-3-notable-players/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting article. But no surprises

 

let me counter with this article:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjV7921--7wAhU1ITQIHRWWA9oQ0PADegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsports.com%2Fphiladelphia%2Fflyers%2Fclaude-giroux-has-unfinished-business-driving-him-final-contract-year-2021-22-season&usg=AOvVaw21nBmCqcZq8BR6vRpowdw4

 

This one is a Giroux love fest and after reading it, one would think the Flyers would be idiots to part with him. I guess when there are no games to watch that would contradict the article, and people have had time to focus on other more important things, you can write whatever you want. Im sure people will believe it and feel good about the team again

[OccamsRazor]

23 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Do I get to hook up with Elizabeth Shue?

 

 

 

We can put it in her contract....she looked better in KK than she did in the Boys...must of had had some cosmetic surgery...botox couldn't have done that....or CGI.

 

But sure we'll let you smooch her if you want. Now stop trying to distract us from this dumpster fire we are addressing...all we need is some SEMTEX and we can watch from a safe distance......it's memorial weekend why not enjoy some fireworks and let's watch it burn...

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by OccamsRazor

[CoachX]

39 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I do think you bring up an interesting point here. Any coach who follows a strict system, or who more or less tends towards similar things, will eventually run into other coaches who have studied him enough to have a good sense of what works against that system.

 

So those coaches who have been able to win wherever they go, did they all learn to adjust?

 

When a good coach is a wizard at executing his system, he can win wherever he goes. That doesn't always mean championships. They are also usually good at finding players who can make the system work the way he wants.

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

We can put it in her contract....she looked better in KK than she did in the Boys...must of had had some cosmetic surgery...botox couldn't have done that....or CGI.

 

But sure we'll let you smooch her if you want. Now stop trying to distract us from this dumpster fire we are addressing...all we need is some simtex and we can watch from a safe distance......it's memorial weekend why not enjoy some fireworks and let's watch it burn...

 

not to be snarky, but its SEMTEX

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

not to be snarky, but its SEMTEX

 

 

Yeah i misspelled it i know i had quite the fun in the Gulf war with it...it go BANG!!! (i am hungover from the Brother's Bond i over indulged in and would recommend if you can find some some).

[OccamsRazor]

Now off to the gym to work this stuff out my system...

 

..enjoy the rest of your day folks it's a beauty out!!!!

 

[mojo1917]

47 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So those coaches who have been able to win wherever they go, did they all learn to adjust?

 

When a good coach is a wizard at executing his system, he can win wherever he goes. That doesn't always mean championships. They are also usually good at finding players who can make the system work the way he wants.

 

 

I do think good coaches adapt to their players.

Sure they have some systems that work but there are myriad reasons they keep winning year in and year out regardless of roster turnover. 

Lou Sabban, won everywhere he's coached in college, same with Urban Myer. 

Gregg Poppavich can win with his team, then take your team and figure a way to beat his team.

That guy is maybe the best coach I've seen in my lifetime.

Bill Bellicek looks for a certain type of player that has the athleticism and intelligence to adapt during the game. Guys like Brusci and Ninkovich weren't freak athletes yet they played well and for a long time for Bellicek.

There isn't a static method or formula for success.

 

I would say this description applies to Vigneault. He's won everywhere he's coached.

He's even won with the Flyers. This past year was a terrible year because expectations were high. The record wasn't stellar but it wasn't bottom scraping either.

He took a team that missed the playoffs used the same players and made the tournament and won a round.

People can poo-poo the series win vs the Canadiens but that team whooped the Pens and was playing well and the Flyers beat them.

I think he'll figure out what he needs his guys to do to win, even if that means getting rid of some.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by mojo1917

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Do I get to hook up with Elizabeth Shue?

 

 

Johnny’s ex wife ...all it will take is a cheap dinner at the Olive Garden and you are in. Elizabeth is probably a BDV by now...busted down valise.

Edited May 29, 2021 by RonJeremy

[elmatus]

3 hours ago, CoachX said:

So those coaches who have been able to win wherever they go, did they all learn to adjust?

 

 

Well, I don't know to be honest. I've been pretty clear in my belief that this core of players just doesn't have enough talent and skill to anchor a team into contention. That to me is still the single most important flaw in this team. At the end of the day, a coach can only play with the cards he's dealt, and I'm of the mind Vigneault has been dealt a mediocre hand at best.

 

Now, some coaches may be able to find a way to find with a mediocre hand, but I don't think very many can. It looks like AV maybe isn't in that very small group. Maybe had he been here instead of Hakstol when Giroux was in his prime, things might have been different. Personally I don't think so though, mostly because I don't think Giroux is good enough to carry a team alone. I think he would have needed a proper sniper to really shine, which he never had.

 

On the subject of the article you posted, I've never been shy of saying that Giroux is a great player. He's definitely and easily one of the best players this franchise has ever drafted and developed. That said, he was asked to do more than he was truly capable of doing, and he never had the support he would have needed to make this team into a contender.

 

I still think he should be traded though, because atm this team needs a rebuild far more than it needs a declining playmaker.

 

To your point though, is AV just not good enough to win anymore? I'm sure he can still win, I just don't think he can win with this roster is all, because I don't think this roster is good enough. AV isn't going to start potting in hat tricks and making a bunch of saves in net, so here we are.

[CoachX]

50 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Well, I don't know to be honest. I've been pretty clear in my belief that this core of players just doesn't have enough talent and skill to anchor a team into contention. That to me is still the single most important flaw in this team. At the end of the day, a coach can only play with the cards he's dealt, and I'm of the mind Vigneault has been dealt a mediocre hand at best.

 

Now, some coaches may be able to find a way to find with a mediocre hand, but I don't think very many can. It looks like AV maybe isn't in that very small group. Maybe had he been here instead of Hakstol when Giroux was in his prime, things might have been different. Personally I don't think so though, mostly because I don't think Giroux is good enough to carry a team alone. I think he would have needed a proper sniper to really shine, which he never had.

 

On the subject of the article you posted, I've never been shy of saying that Giroux is a great player. He's definitely and easily one of the best players this franchise has ever drafted and developed. That said, he was asked to do more than he was truly capable of doing, and he never had the support he would have needed to make this team into a contender.

 

I still think he should be traded though, because atm this team needs a rebuild far more than it needs a declining playmaker.

 

To your point though, is AV just not good enough to win anymore? I'm sure he can still win, I just don't think he can win with this roster is all, because I don't think this roster is good enough. AV isn't going to start potting in hat tricks and making a bunch of saves in net, so here we are.

After reading your response, I think I misunderstood you, and replied in a way that got you to misunderstand me.

 

I think AV is the right coach at the right time. I don't think this lineup will accomplish anything becasue I think there are internal fractures that have nothing to do with ability. If they trust AV, let him do his thing, and build the team with the pieces he says he needs, I have no doubt he will win again. Teams usually go after high profile players becasue of what they have accomplished, believing they will continue to perform at that level. AV is no different than if Ovechkin signed with Vancouver. He would still be Ovechkin

 

The article on Giroux struck me wrong becasue I felt like it is out of place. Much like when one of our forum mates commented on how the sales office is bragging up the roster to generate ticket sales, knowing the team monumentally $hit the bed. I hope Giroux stays, but only as an accessory to a full line up overhaul. I just don't see a guy demonstrating an effort worthy of being the main piece. He has been a favorite of mine since he arrived, maybe that why personally I'm so down on him. Its just personal disappointment becasue my favorite team(ONLY team...blow me toronto fan) sucks, and my favorite player isn't doing anything to make it better. Barring things he might do in the near future, he can break all the records for the Flyers, but he will never be Lindros, Tocchet, Clarke

[elmatus]

3 hours ago, CoachX said:

I just don't see a guy demonstrating an effort worthy of being the main piece.

Yeah, I mean we’re saying about 90% of the same thing. The only difference i can see is that you feel it’s more a question of lack of effort or desire, whereas I believe it’s more a lack of ability.
 

I think Giroux has always tried to do the best he could. I just don’t think his best is good enough to anchor a team. I don’t think he lacks a desire to win at all. i think he desperately wants to win, and my guess is that desire only increases every season where he doesn’t, as i expect it must for virtually all NHL captains in a situation like his. 

 

At the end of the day though, I feel like we’re landing in the same place in terms of whether or not this team can win it all. Unless i’m wrong in saying this. It looks like we’re both saying they just can’t win as assembled. 
 

that said, I honestly do hope you’re right and not me. It’s certainly much easier to find players who really want to win than players with top end skill. Maybe Fletch can find a few of those guys in the off season, and this team can find a way. 

[tucson83]

23 hours ago, CoachX said:

Interesting article. But no surprises

 

let me counter with this article:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjV7921--7wAhU1ITQIHRWWA9oQ0PADegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsports.com%2Fphiladelphia%2Fflyers%2Fclaude-giroux-has-unfinished-business-driving-him-final-contract-year-2021-22-season&usg=AOvVaw21nBmCqcZq8BR6vRpowdw4

 

This one is a Giroux love fest and after reading it, one would think the Flyers would be idiots to part with him. I guess when there are no games to watch that would contradict the article, and people have had time to focus on other more important things, you can write whatever you want. Im sure people will believe it and feel good about the team again

 

yeah i dont get it, there were alot of big pieces we moved on from lindros, primeau, richards, carter, briere and we never quit competing despite that. if they let giroux go it's because we have to move forward as result of his age and we have alot of cap space especially when there's young talent out on the market and we can retool this team using that instead of relying on the draft. that's the mistake front offices make, they always hold on aging players because of personal connections when there's young talent out there. when you hold to aging players and not replace them, it puts your team down the drain because of their regression.

 

 

[Howie58]

What's sad is that some analysts feel the only movable Flyer is Coots, who is affordable and would fetch a lot. That is a sad assessment, but moving the other contracts would mean salary eating we can't digest. 

 

I might argue that is a reality that means the team is in rebuild and nobody is sacred. 

 

MTL took out TOR.  We barely beat MTL in six last year. Our team is going nowhere fast. If we could get some picks and salary space down the road, I say fine. Jake is out in two years and our Captain will probably settle for a hometown end of career discount. Let's move on and hope we get some good company for the youngins who are salvageable. 

 

When I watch the speed or skill of a Vegas it makes me realize how far we have to go.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Howie58

[tucson83]

8 hours ago, Howie58 said:

What's sad is that some analysts feel the only movable Flyer is Coots, who is affordable and would fetch a lot. That is a sad assessment, but moving the other contracts would mean salary eating we can't digest. 

 

I might argue that is a reality that means the team is in rebuild and nobody is sacred. 

 

MTL took out TOR.  We barely beat MTL in six last year. Our team is going nowhere fast. If we could get some picks and salary space down the road, I say fine. Jake is out in two years and our Captain will probably settle for a hometown end of career discount. Let's move on and hope we get some good company for the youngins who are salvageable. 

 

When I watch the speed or skill of a Vegas it makes me realize how far we have to go.

 

 

 

montreal also has players that won cups from previous teams, toffoli, staal, perry, we need some of those types of players on this team because that's what this team is missing when it comes to getting the right vets.

Edited June 1, 2021 by tucson83

[OccamsRazor]

11 hours ago, Howie58 said:

We barely beat MTL in six last year. Our team is going nowhere fast. I

 

It can't be overlooked they went out and added some scoring and size they needed with Anderson, Toffoli and grit with Perry.

 

Edmundson was added on the blue line.

 

So like them or not they tried to address weaknesses exposed by the Flyers during the playoffs run last year.

 

Hopefully the Flyers brass can do the same for their club.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by OccamsRazor
#boubonup

[mojo1917]

While I agree things with the Flyers aren't all Disney Princesses and puppy dogs, I also don't view the team with the same gloom as a lot of what I'm seeing in this thread.

For instance I wonder what the team would have looked like had they had only mediocre goaltending this season and not worst in the league?

This last season there were games when the full roster was together after COVID where there would be long stretches of shot suppression and offensive zone possession during games only to leave the period trailing because one of the 3 shots the goalies faced went through them.

Hart and Elliott were at times putrid and at times pretty okay, what they were not was consistent nor reliable. 

We can debate chicken or egg with this, there were some atrocious defensive breakdowns and some terrible penalty killing this season so sometimes there were 2 on 0s or far post tap-ins because guys were puck watching. 

The team only played well as a team a handful of times.

I don't think it's because all the players that were good 9 months earlier suddenly and inexplicably forgot how to play hockey.

The team I remember from the end of 20/21 wouldn't stand a chance in these playoffs.

I can't help but think guys got demoralized. Before a bunch of old school alpha wannabes tell me it's unacceptable blah blah blah, I didn't care for it either, I found better things to do than watch those stumble bums play out the string.

But that's what happened- so now what?

Clear out some money and shake up the veteran core, even though, they actually led the team, I agree that the 14, 28, 93, 25 group isn't the best mix.

Add some toughness, add a legit top pairing player to the defensive mix, and have Carter Hart revert to the mean, and this team is better. A lot better.

 

 

 

[FD19372]

49 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

and grit with Perry

This is very true, and veteran leadership from a guy who's won a Cup and been to a few conference finals. He was a bargain at $750,000 for the year.

[FD19372]

11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

While I agree things with the Flyers aren't all Disney Princesses and puppy dogs,

Great, now you've given the Flyers more ways to roll out Gritty next season.

[tucson83]

Just now, FD19372 said:

This is very true, and veteran leadership from a guy who's won a Cup and been to a few conference finals. He was a bargain at $750,000 for the year.

hopefully fletch learns from this and goes 180 and fills the holes with players that won cups. he did with nisky and that changed the defense alot.

[CoachX]

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

While I agree things with the Flyers aren't all Disney Princesses

They just play like they are

[flyercanuck]

5 hours ago, FD19372 said:

This is very true, and veteran leadership from a guy who's won a Cup and been to a few conference finals. He was a bargain at $750,000 for the year.

 

Sure...and Flyer management will take note and sign him for 5 years at $5 million per.

[Howie58]

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

While I agree things with the Flyers aren't all Disney Princesses and puppy dogs, I also don't view the team with the same gloom as a lot of what I'm seeing in this thread.

For instance I wonder what the team would have looked like had they had only mediocre goaltending this season and not worst in the league?

This last season there were games when the full roster was together after COVID where there would be long stretches of shot suppression and offensive zone possession during games only to leave the period trailing because one of the 3 shots the goalies faced went through them.

Hart and Elliott were at times putrid and at times pretty okay, what they were not was consistent nor reliable. 

We can debate chicken or egg with this, there were some atrocious defensive breakdowns and some terrible penalty killing this season so sometimes there were 2 on 0s or far post tap-ins because guys were puck watching. 

The team only played well as a team a handful of times.

I don't think it's because all the players that were good 9 months earlier suddenly and inexplicably forgot how to play hockey.

The team I remember from the end of 20/21 wouldn't stand a chance in these playoffs.

I can't help but think guys got demoralized. Before a bunch of old school alpha wannabes tell me it's unacceptable blah blah blah, I didn't care for it either, I found better things to do than watch those stumble bums play out the string.

But that's what happened- so now what?

Clear out some money and shake up the veteran core, even though, they actually led the team, I agree that the 14, 28, 93, 25 group isn't the best mix.

Add some toughness, add a legit top pairing player to the defensive mix, and have Carter Hart revert to the mean, and this team is better. A lot better.

 

 

 

Mojo:  There is much truth in your assessment, but I think the mix of players on this squad, even with a rejuvenated Hart, won't be too good, as you mentioned.  The more thought I give it, the more we need to move at least one, if not two our veteran core.  This is both a signal and salary cap gig.  I also think the fanbase is ready for some lousy years if needed.  The kind of mediocrity we saw this year is unwatchable.  Carolina fans knew they might have some stink bombs en route to an exciting group.  I'd feel the same.  Candidly, I think the team goes nowhere soon with this core.  We need a true Number One Center to be with Farabee to scare and break down our opponents.  Yes, another strong D would help.  But G, Coots, Hayes, and Laughts are not geared to break down the opponents.  As for Hart--my Q is depth.  Who backs him up?  Who is here t bail him out if need be?  There's a lot to be determined with this gang, and it is easy to be gloomy given the last decade of false starts.  BTW--I don't know if AV is part of the solution, but I am quite sure he isn't the core of the problem.  

[OccamsRazor]

10 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Add some toughness

 

Phillip Danault is a UFA this offseason....can't lie i would love to add him to the center depth.

 

I know it sort of goes against going younger but he won't be 29 till next February though.

 

He could be used to shut down the other team's top line.

 

Coots - Hayes - Danault - Patrick????

 

Just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks at this late hour....

[OccamsRazor]

19 hours ago, CoachX said:

They just play like they are

 

Flyers have a chance to kick off the offseason with a bang. Draft lottery is tonight.

 

Is uncle Gary done helping the Rangers or does he give them another star before moving on??

 

Flyers have a 1.8% chance in the first drawing and a 2.0% chance in the second drawing.

 

[CoachX]

The entire concept of a draft lottery is stoopid