CoachX Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said: Yes I was referring to the 2020-2021 season. In regards to that, I will hold to my thought that key players have quit on the franchise. I believe there is a fracture within the locker room. If true, then it's most likely due to players not liking AV and his style. That is not something I would blame in him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: So we're all in agreement then - a number of veterans must be moved and the coaching staff needs a short leash while management needs to put a stamp on this club in terms of identity and style. Upper level management in the organization* needs to put a stamp on this club in terms of identity and style? Edited June 21, 2021 by radoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, radoran said: Upper level management in the organization* needs to put a stamp on this club in terms of identity and style? I think they have to, or at the very least, work in conjunction with the coaching staff on what kind of team identity they want. I know there's this thinking that exists that the coaching staff has zero say on player acquisition and that the staff plays who the management staff acquire, but that's a load of horse **** if anyone believes that. Coaches have just as much of a say in player acquisition. So yeah, coaching and management need to be in the same page in terms of identity and style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Coaches have just as much of a say in player acquisition. I certainly hope so. Otherwise your just telling any coach, hey the last guy couldn't do it, so it's your turn to try to win with this group. That means the ability to win or lose is all based on how good the coach is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 I honestly believe that the only thought management has is to sneak into the playoffs in order to acquire gate and concession receipts. I am serious. That is the Flyer mantra. The draft picks are based solely on the scouts scorecards, and they pick best player according to the scouts. There is no thought to character and hockey smarts, no positional needs, no master plan to build an identity, just draft and hope. The past ten years have proven this over and over. I still believe the only way they get over the hump is to bottom out and draft top 3 for 2 or 3 years. Hextall and Fletcher have shown no compunction to moving on from the current so called leadership group, (which jams them up against the cap, and will cost an asset in the Kraken draft) they continually overrate the players in the system, (Ghost went unclaimed on waivers) and we are left to watch what the current roster offers for 10 years and counting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 41 minutes ago, flyer4ever said: I honestly believe that the only thought management has is to sneak into the playoffs in order to acquire gate and concession receipts. I am serious. That is the Flyer mantra. The draft picks are based solely on the scouts scorecards, and they pick best player according to the scouts. There is no thought to character and hockey smarts, no positional needs, no master plan to build an identity, just draft and hope. The past ten years have proven this over and over. I still believe the only way they get over the hump is to bottom out and draft top 3 for 2 or 3 years. Hextall and Fletcher have shown no compunction to moving on from the current so called leadership group, (which jams them up against the cap, and will cost an asset in the Kraken draft) they continually overrate the players in the system, (Ghost went unclaimed on waivers) and we are left to watch what the current roster offers for 10 years and counting. I'm not sure if that's the case. I think the last thing ownership wants is to just squeak in and maybe win a round or two. They want championship banners. The problem, and this is just my observation, is that every GM from Clarke (second go around) to Holmgren to Hextall and to Fletcher, has sold ownership this false bill of goods that the Flyers are only one to two players away and that a rebuild isn't a necessity. Instead, they've sold this narrative on retooling and ownership has been on board with that thinking. I blame Holmgren for the mess the Flyers are in. When he took over as GM, Clarke left him a death of resources. There were draft picks, prospects, depth galore and he passed it all away because he wanted to build back quickly, not properly. Hextall was then hired to clean up the mess Holmgren left and now Fletcher has to use all that depth Hextall put in place to drag the Flyers out of this current mess. If it would have been built properly the first time around the club wouldn't be in the predicament it's currently in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Fletcher has to use all that depth Hextall put in place to drag the Flyers out of this current mess. He's on it as we speak coming up with an offseason plan... ...we know it is going to work... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: He's on it as we speak coming up with an offseason plan... ...we know it is going to work... Lol....I have no confidence in Fletcher (although he's been pretty solid at navigating and working his way around the draft) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Lol....I have no confidence in Fletcher (although he's been pretty solid at navigating and working his way around the draft) Yeah something in my gut tells me that he thinks the answer to the Flyer's problems would be acquiring the services of Matt Dumba this offseason... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 I see the Yotes are going to try again and trade OEL. If the Yotes would take Jake back in a package i would consider this for sure as a starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 On 6/20/2021 at 9:52 AM, flyercanuck said: Well he could have stopped sending the slowest guy in the NHL out against the fastest guy on the Isles every shift...I mean I'm not a pro hockey coach but a complete idiot could see that wasn't working. Clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 9 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: I think they have to, or at the very least, work in conjunction with the coaching staff on what kind of team identity they want. Their current identity is Suk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said: Their current identity is Suk Vanilla Suk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 9 hours ago, flyer4ever said: The draft picks are based solely on the scouts scorecards, and they pick best player according to the scouts. There is no thought to character and hockey smarts, no positional needs, no master plan to build an identity, just draft and hope. The past ten years have proven this over and over. I have said this many times , the Flyers usually draft the so called best player available when their pick comes up. They have no regard for how that guy fits into the current team . They always think well, he’s a center we can move him to wing, that doesn’t always work, we had this problem with Primeau, Brind’Amor and Gratton, none of them were able to play left wing . We have G and Jake ,two guys that never shoot the puck, on the same line for 10 years Did it ever occur to anyone…you know, we should really find a finisher to complement these guys ? Or put them on separate lines and find a couple of shooters . We have lacked goaltending for thirty years and finally addressed it, we lacked homegrown defenseman also for thirty years and finally drafted some solid dmen. We have lacked finishers for years and only in the last couple of drafts we have finally addressed that, we have lacked grit as well . Why did it take so long to figure this out? People will argue that you draft the best player available and can trade him if he’s not a fit. I do not agree with that . Just look at the Sixers and how many high first round picks were wasted drafting the “best player” available…Okafor, Noels, Fulz and Simmons to name a few. They eventually traded these guys who did not fit and they got next to nothing back for them..Just because someone is rated higher than another guy ,sometime you have to draft a player that fills a need ,that is a missing piece for a particular line you have and who will work within your teams system . If you draft guys who do not fit or who can’t adjust to a different position, then he is not going to be successful and his value will drop and you will get nothing in a trade for him. Just look at Simmons ,sure he has talent, but he does not fit and now everyone knows you want to dump him and they are gonna lowball you. The Flyers need to build a team ,not just collect assets . The Islanders are not the most talented team, yet they are right there playing well against Tampa, the most skilled team.They have maybe one high skill guy Barzal, the rest of the team are good ,not great players. The thing is, they have a great blend of speed and size and defensive responsibility and everyone puts in 100%. Lamorello built a cohesive team, he inherited a core from Garth Snow and added the missing pieces that actually fit. We should follow this blueprint,it’s easier to build a well balanced team, then to find superstars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 57 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: . They always think well, he’s a center we can move him to wing, that doesn’t always work, we had this problem with Primeau, Brind’Amor and Gratton, none of them were able to play left wing None of them were drafted by the Flyers 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 8 hours ago, CoachX said: None of them were drafted by the Flyers Shhhh. You're interrupting a perfectly good brain hemorrhage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 8 hours ago, CoachX said: None of them were drafted by the Flyers I know that , it I’m just using it as an example of the mentality of compiling pieces that don’t fit. We traded Renberg who fit perfectly for Gratton who didn’t fit at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: I know that , it I’m just using it as an example of the mentality of compiling pieces that don’t fit. We traded Renberg who fit perfectly for Gratton who didn’t fit at all. Perfect example of the shoe that doesn't fit concept. I know what they were attempting there, but clearly it was a bad move. I don't agree with the draft part, though. You have to go BPA regardless of position. You get the best assets possible. The problem for the Flyers isn't the concept, it's the execution. Was Sam Morin the BPA at that pick? Or did they draft defenseman because they felt they needed defenseman. And was he even the best defenseman in that spot or did they draft for a specific type they needed? How about Jay O'Brien? I get it was the second first rounder they had so were rolling dice, but is this organization in a place they can afford a conceited, "we weelly smurt" roll of the dice there? There were like 10 to 15 teams drafting between that pick and where he should have been taken. If you really want him, trade back and get another plate appearance in the process. More examples of this, but this will suffice. The problem with the "fill need" approach is you're drafting for a few years out and needs change. And players don't always work out. So you draft the BPA for two reasons: it gives you the best chance the player succeeds in making the NHL and it also gives you the best trade chip in the event needs change. You end up with players others might want rather than a stable full of players that really only maybe make sense for a weird idea of a need you maybe had 3 years ago. The problem is that Hextall, in particular, (and now even Fletcher) seemed to fall in love with his own handiwork and was unwilling to think of his prospects as assets. Everyone was a project and every one was in envisioned and fantasized that they'd make the Flyers and be oh so fantastic. And don't trade one because they may eventually score a goal or have a 5 second clip on a highlight reel and all we got from the trade was Gratton (you mentioned him and I hate him, so it's the name coming to mind). The last part of this: if you're going to go with the philosophy that you're drafting the BPA, two things are required and this it's apparent this hasn't been the case: 1) you need scouts that can recognize who the BPA actually is and can convincingly argue for him and 2) a GM not so full of himself and not to busy self-stroking his own glorious genius that he listens to his scouting. If the BPA if basically a wash between two players by all means, go for type of position, but otherwise... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindbergh31 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 22 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: So we're all in agreement then - a number of veterans must be moved and the coaching staff needs a short leash while management needs to put a stamp on this club in terms of identity and style. Yes, Giroux and Voracek's time in Philly should be up. The NHL isn't the Broad Street Bullies era, Fletcher has to pick players with skill and speed but you still need bottom end grinders on your 3rd and 4th lines who can chip in with goals, play physical and goalie doesn't hurt either. I believe Hart will come around to be the goalie we as Flyers fans hope he can be. The new NHL is a team like the Bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 1 hour ago, ruxpin said: Perfect example of the shoe that doesn't fit concept. I know what they were attempting there, but clearly it was a bad move. I don't agree with the draft part, though. You have to go BPA regardless of position. You get the best assets possible. The problem for the Flyers isn't the concept, it's the execution. Was Sam Morin the BPA at that pick? Or did they draft defenseman because they felt they needed defenseman. And was he even the best defenseman in that spot or did they draft for a specific type they needed? How about Jay O'Brien? I get it was the second first rounder they had so were rolling dice, but is this organization in a place they can afford a conceited, "we weelly smurt" roll of the dice there? There were like 10 to 15 teams drafting between that pick and where he should have been taken. If you really want him, trade back and get another plate appearance in the process. More examples of this, but this will suffice. The problem with the "fill need" approach is you're drafting for a few years out and needs change. And players don't always work out. So you draft the BPA for two reasons: it gives you the best chance the player succeeds in making the NHL and it also gives you the best trade chip in the event needs change. You end up with players others might want rather than a stable full of players that really only maybe make sense for a weird idea of a need you maybe had 3 years ago. The problem is that Hextall, in particular, (and now even Fletcher) seemed to fall in love with his own handiwork and was unwilling to think of his prospects as assets. Everyone was a project and every one was in envisioned and fantasized that they'd make the Flyers and be oh so fantastic. And don't trade one because they may eventually score a goal or have a 5 second clip on a highlight reel and all we got from the trade was Gratton (you mentioned him and I hate him, so it's the name coming to mind). The last part of this: if you're going to go with the philosophy that you're drafting the BPA, two things are required and this it's apparent this hasn't been the case: 1) you need scouts that can recognize who the BPA actually is and can convincingly argue for him and 2) a GM not so full of himself and not to busy self-stroking his own glorious genius that he listens to his scouting. If the BPA if basically a wash between two players by all means, go for type of position, but otherwise... Just to add, usually the first two rounds of the draft, is always best to go with the best player available approach. Most drafts, the top 60 to 65 players taken are usually best player available. In some cases, the best player available is also a need. Outside the first two rounds, then yes, switch to a need because then you're looking at more of a significant crapshoot when it comes to players. Of course, most teams have their boards all lined up prior to the draft, so things change on draft day. But yeah, best player available is always the best approach to take in the first two rounds. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Just to add, usually the first two rounds of the draft, is always best to go with the best player available approach. Most drafts, the top 60 to 65 players taken are usually best player available. In some cases, the best player available is also a need. Outside the first two rounds, then yes, switch to a need because then you're looking at more of a significant crapshoot when it comes to players. Of course, most teams have their boards all lined up prior to the draft, so things change on draft day. But yeah, best player available is always the best approach to take in the first two rounds. Terrific add. And yes, completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 On 6/21/2021 at 11:18 AM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: So yeah, coaching and management need to be in the same page in terms of identity and style. I don't disagree, I just don't have any faith in this organization*'s upper management. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 4 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said: The NHL isn't the Broad Street Bullies era, Fletcher has to pick players with skill and speed but you still need bottom end grinders on your 3rd and 4th lines who can chip in with goals, play physical I dunno, seems like they are chock full of this type of player Somewhere in there, you need to find some badass offensive talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 5 hours ago, ruxpin said: Perfect example of the shoe that doesn't fit concept. I know what they were attempting there, but clearly it was a bad move. I don't agree with the draft part, though. You have to go BPA regardless of position. You get the best assets possible. The problem for the Flyers isn't the concept, it's the execution. Was Sam Morin the BPA at that pick? Or did they draft defenseman because they felt they needed defenseman. And was he even the best defenseman in that spot or did they draft for a specific type they needed? How about Jay O'Brien? I get it was the second first rounder they had so were rolling dice, but is this organization in a place they can afford a conceited, "we weelly smurt" roll of the dice there? There were like 10 to 15 teams drafting between that pick and where he should have been taken. If you really want him, trade back and get another plate appearance in the process. More examples of this, but this will suffice. The problem with the "fill need" approach is you're drafting for a few years out and needs change. And players don't always work out. So you draft the BPA for two reasons: it gives you the best chance the player succeeds in making the NHL and it also gives you the best trade chip in the event needs change. You end up with players others might want rather than a stable full of players that really only maybe make sense for a weird idea of a need you maybe had 3 years ago. The problem is that Hextall, in particular, (and now even Fletcher) seemed to fall in love with his own handiwork and was unwilling to think of his prospects as assets. Everyone was a project and every one was in envisioned and fantasized that they'd make the Flyers and be oh so fantastic. And don't trade one because they may eventually score a goal or have a 5 second clip on a highlight reel and all we got from the trade was Gratton (you mentioned him and I hate him, so it's the name coming to mind). The last part of this: if you're going to go with the philosophy that you're drafting the BPA, two things are required and this it's apparent this hasn't been the case: 1) you need scouts that can recognize who the BPA actually is and can convincingly argue for him and 2) a GM not so full of himself and not to busy self-stroking his own glorious genius that he listens to his scouting. If the BPA if basically a wash between two players by all means, go for type of position, but otherwise... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, CoachX said: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.