What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[radoran]

2 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The big first round pick that really missed under Hextall was Rubtsov.

 

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

If you look at Ruby's draft year just for example and I am not saying these guys are all the same but the Bolts heralded forwards Katchouk and Raddysh haven't arrived yet for them either.

 

The 2016 draft wasn't exactly a bed of roses - I'm interested in who the Flyers should have taken instead of Rubustov? Would we all be "happier" with Max Jones, Tage Thompson, Brett Howden, or Sam Steel? Those are the four first rounders after Rubustov with more than 100 games. None have yet hit 20 total goals. Two guys taken after him in the first haven't even played in the league. Two have been traded and at least one of Jones or Steel is likely to be exposed to Seattle.

 

The only two players taken after Rubustov with more than 20 goals are Debrincat (2nd - 119 in 286) and Jesper Bratt (6th round - 44 in 231).

 

I just have the feeling that no matter who was taken in 2016, nobody would be overjoyed with them on the roster.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

The 2016 draft wasn't exactly a bed of roses - I'm interested in who the Flyers should have taken instead of Rubustov? Would we all be "happier" with Max Jones, Tage Thompson, Brett Howden, or Sam Steel? Those are the four first rounders after Rubustov with more than 100 games. None have yet hit 20 total goals. Two guys taken after him in the first haven't even played in the league. Two have been traded and at least one of Jones or Steel is likely to be exposed to Seattle.

 

The only two players taken after Rubustov with more than 20 goals are Debrincat (2nd - 119 in 286) and Jesper Bratt (6th round - 44 in 231).

 

I just have the feeling that no matter who was taken in 2016, nobody would be overjoyed with them on the roster.

Honestly, Logan Stanley might have been the player I'd have chosen. After that Max Jones would have been the other. I think Jones just landed in a ****** situation in Anaheim and that I still think he has 20 goal/50 point upside. He's got a meanstreak a mile wide as well, but it seems to have been coached out of him. That's too bad because in his days in London, he was great at bullying defensemen into mistakes and was an intimidating presence. I swear, I don't understand why NHL coaches neuter that part of the game from players. Being a physical and intimidating presence is still a requirement in the game. 

[flyercanuck]

On 7/11/2021 at 9:30 AM, mojo1917 said:

 

 

We want to talk misses? Rubstov, O'Brien, Morin...those are the previous guy's legacy. 

 

 Rubstov unfortunately had his career completely derailed by injury. He's certainly looking like a bust. 

 

 O'Brien was supposed to be a work in progress. If he's a bust at 21 I guess Kaprizov was also a bust at 21 because he's 24 and just made his debut. So at 21 he was a "miss"? 

 

 Morin was Homers pick.

 

[radoran]

12 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Honestly, Logan Stanley might have been the player I'd have chosen.

 

Stanley went four picks before Rubustov.

 

13 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

After that Max Jones would have been the other. I think Jones just landed in a ****** situation in Anaheim and that I still think he has 20 goal/50 point upside.

 

I get that, it's just that you're still looking at a crapshoot. I just can't say "Hextall screwed up" when there isn't really another guy that's obviously the better choice at that point.

 

Debrincat is really the only "miss" from that draft. The rest are bottom nine players who can fill roles, but really aren't game changers.

 

Would I prefer to have an actual NHL player than a guy with four NHL games? Sure. But the 2016 draft looks more like the 2017 draft than the 2015 one.

 

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

O'Brien was supposed to be a work in progress... So at 21 he was a "miss"? 

 

And this is the issue - when you're picking at ~20 there are going to be hits and misses. It's the nature of the draft.

 

But declaring a 21-year-old who hasn't even left college yet a "bust" two years after his draft when you'd be hard pressed to say who should have been taken instead is maybe jumping the gun a bit?

 

And when the previous guy's legacy also includes Provorov, Hart, Konecny, Farabee, Sanheim, Lindblom, NAK - who have all played significant NHL minutes for "definitely a playoff hockey team" that almost made the Conference Final - not to mention Allison, Patrick, and Frost, if they get nothing from O'Brien or Ratcliffe that's still 10 NHL players drafted over four years and most teams would be pretty happy with that.

 

I think it's really hard to say Hextall was a bust at drafting.

 

Over the previous four years the Other Other Guy managed Hagg, Laughton, Ghost, Couturier, Cousins, and maybe Morin.

[OccamsRazor]

45 minutes ago, radoran said:

The 2016 draft wasn't exactly a bed of roses - I'm interested in who the Flyers should have taken instead of Rubustov? Would we all be "happier" with Max Jones, Tage Thompson, Brett Howden, or Sam Steel?

 

Not sure I liked the pick at the time. 

 

I guess maybe you could have traded it for some immediate help either by itself or in a package.

 

I also like Borgström but he too still hasn't done much. He was moved to the Blackhawks. He reminds me of a Swedish Travis Sanheim with his game not quite as dynamic with the puck but needs work in his own end.

 

I am still holding out that he can be serviceable the one good plus with him is he has always been sound defensively so there is a chance he can help in the bottom 6 soon. And who knows maybe the offense will come around.

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

So at 21 he was a "miss"? 

 

I'm not ready to say that.

 

He still has solid size and speed.

 

So I think another year of college and he may be ready to sign.

 

Something about him and his skating remind me of Scott Laughton and he certainly isn't a bust.

 

Alot of need to temper our expectations including me and I know a lot of it comes from the frustration of being in the two years away from being two years away cycle but I think they are very close to turning the corner....especially once some of the old guard is changed.

 

It is trending in the right direction just not as fast as we want it.

 

Fingers crossed they have a successful offseason free agent wise and another solid draft.

[radoran]

10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Not sure I liked the pick at the time. 

 

I guess maybe you could have traded it for some immediate help either by itself or in a package.

 

That's part of the point - there wasn't really anybody we were going to "like" at that point of the first round of that draft.

 

If they get anything out of Rubustov (I'm not expecting it) it's a win.

 

The "miss" in that draft - assuming there has to be one - is Laberge over Debrincat three picks later in the second...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

That's part of the point - there wasn't really anybody we were going to "like" at that point of the first round of that draft.

 

If they get anything out of Rubustov (I'm not expecting it) it's a win.

 

The "miss" in that draft - assuming there has to be one - is Laberge over Debrincat three picks later in the second...

That devastating head injury that Laberge suffered completely changed his trajectory. He was never the same player after that. I rooted for him because of all the hardships he went through, but that head injury was too much and he was never the same player after that. He completely changed his game to compensate for the injury. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

That devastating head injury that Laberge suffered completely changed his trajectory. He was never the same player after that. I rooted for him because of all the hardships he went through, but that head injury was too much and he was never the same player after that. He completely changed his game to compensate for the injury. 

 

Yeah it seemed he was always more about looking over his shoulders when he went into the corners instead of just concentrating on the puck and forever changed his game.

 

Crazy how a big injury can get in your head but it has happened to many especially for a guy who had size but just wasn't overly physical to begin with.

 

Sadly he will forever be a AHL/ECHLer.

 

I think the Flyers have cut bait.

[CoachX]

23 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

They're human and reality is what it is.  So kindly save that response.

So what response is acceptable, one that you pre-approve?

[radoran]

38 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

That devastating head injury that Laberge suffered completely changed his trajectory. He was never the same player after that. I rooted for him because of all the hardships he went through, but that head injury was too much and he was never the same player after that. He completely changed his game to compensate for the injury. 

 

Right, and the same could be said of Rubustov's injury history, as well as Morin's not to mention Patrick's.

 

Point being that our perception of picks is certainly coloured by hindsight. All sorts of things factor into a player blossoming (or wilting) at the NHL level.

[flyer4ever]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Stanley went four picks before Rubustov.

 

 

I get that, it's just that you're still looking at a crapshoot. I just can't say "Hextall screwed up" when there isn't really another guy that's obviously the better choice at that point.

 

Debrincat is really the only "miss" from that draft. The rest are bottom nine players who can fill roles, but really aren't game changers.

 

Would I prefer to have an actual NHL player than a guy with four NHL games? Sure. But the 2016 draft looks more like the 2017 draft than the 2015 one.

 

 

And this is the issue - when you're picking at ~20 there are going to be hits and misses. It's the nature of the draft.

 

But declaring a 21-year-old who hasn't even left college yet a "bust" two years after his draft when you'd be hard pressed to say who should have been taken instead is maybe jumping the gun a bit?

 

And when the previous guy's legacy also includes Provorov, Hart, Konecny, Farabee, Sanheim, Lindblom, NAK - who have all played significant NHL minutes for "definitely a playoff hockey team" that almost made the Conference Final - not to mention Allison, Patrick, and Frost, if they get nothing from O'Brien or Ratcliffe that's still 10 NHL players drafted over four years and most teams would be pretty happy with that.

 

I think it's really hard to say Hextall was a bust at drafting.

 

Over the previous four years the Other Other Guy managed Hagg, Laughton, Ghost, Couturier, Cousins, and maybe Morin.

The last team to win the cup without multiple top 5 draft picks was Detroit 2008. 

Since we all agree that the Flyers picks mid 1st round were almost all decent, the obvious conclusion is that the veteran lack of leadership is the problem. 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Patrick's

 

Except for this guy.

 

Right or wrong I can't put my finger on it something I get about him like maybe from his father and/or uncle playing and maybe him watching them go against the Flyers his just loathes them maybe or something.

 

He just has that look in his body language or something that he doesn't want to play for the Flyers.

 

As I said I have nothing else besides that to base it on but I coincides with reports he wants a trade.

 

But otherwise yes derailed by injury...

 

 

[radoran]

1 minute ago, flyer4ever said:

The last team to win the cup without multiple top 5 draft picks was Detroit 2008.

 

Oh, good! The Flyers have two 2nd overalls - JVR and Patrick. With Couturier and Provorov being top 10 picks...

 

2 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Since we all agree that the Flyers picks mid 1st round were almost all decent, the obvious conclusion is that the veteran lack of leadership is the problem. 

 

They have a captain who had never been a captain - at any level - prior to the NHL. I've generally liked Giroux over his career, but he has been horribly miscast and I just don't believe at this point he knows how to turn this around.

 

Aside from Niskanen, they have never really given him any sort of solid leadership support. The "big" FA moves they have made over the past decade or so were re-signing JVR from the Tronno Maple Leafs (maybe not the source of long term success they might have needed...) and bringing in Hayes who wasn't even attempted to be re-signed by the Jets.

 

I would just prefer they have a plan beyond how to make last year's team a little better the next year. It has been years of "we're just [insert position(s) here] away!"

 

Spoiler alert: they've been further away than "[insert position here]" for something like half a decade if not longer.

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Right or wrong I can't put my finger on it something I get about him like maybe from his father and/or uncle playing and maybe him watching them go against the Flyers his just loathes them maybe or something.

 

He just has that look in his body language or something that he doesn't want to play for the Flyers.

 

For whatever reason, he has just been not a good "fit." I could see him as a reasonable "needs a change of scenery" guy. I think there might be more than a few of them playing for this organization* "that everybody wants to play for."

 

Seth Jones just basically put them on the same level of desirability as the Columbus Blue Jackets...

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Seth Jones just basically put them on the same level of desirability as the Columbus Blue Jackets...

 

Can't blame him...when you at playoff success the last couple of years maybe they are Columbus East...

 

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Stanley went four picks before Rubustov.

 

 

I get that, it's just that you're still looking at a crapshoot. I just can't say "Hextall screwed up" when there isn't really another guy that's obviously the better choice at that point.

 

Debrincat is really the only "miss" from that draft. The rest are bottom nine players who can fill roles, but really aren't game changers.

 

Would I prefer to have an actual NHL player than a guy with four NHL games? Sure. But the 2016 draft looks more like the 2017 draft than the 2015 one.

 

 

And this is the issue - when you're picking at ~20 there are going to be hits and misses. It's the nature of the draft.

 

But declaring a 21-year-old who hasn't even left college yet a "bust" two years after his draft when you'd be hard pressed to say who should have been taken instead is maybe jumping the gun a bit?

 

And when the previous guy's legacy also includes Provorov, Hart, Konecny, Farabee, Sanheim, Lindblom, NAK - who have all played significant NHL minutes for "definitely a playoff hockey team" that almost made the Conference Final - not to mention Allison, Patrick, and Frost, if they get nothing from O'Brien or Ratcliffe that's still 10 NHL players drafted over four years and most teams would be pretty happy with that.

 

I think it's really hard to say Hextall was a bust at drafting.

 

Over the previous four years the Other Other Guy managed Hagg, Laughton, Ghost, Couturier, Cousins, and maybe Morin.

 

You don't post enough on this board.

 

That is all. 

[mojo1917]

7 hours ago, CoachX said:

So what response is acceptable, one that you pre-approve?

Really, This is your comment from that post?

Trolling?

 

 

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

@ruxpin

My mention of draft picks wasn't meant to cast aspersions on Hextall's picks.

It was more to point out that the current top managers have done pretty well picking players in Minnesota and here.

You guys were saying you don't trust them to not **** up a pick in this year's draft -and i was saying I think their track record has been pretty good.

Fletch & Flahr have some blind spots, i think pro scouting is one, but, i don't  share the opinion that they are terrible evaluators of amateur talent.

Edited July 12, 2021 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

48 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I think their track record has been pretty good.

 

I agree.

 

Chuckles like Hextall leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to addressing team needs through free agency and through trades IMHO.

 

I hope he learned from his Braun trade and Gustafsson signing he must do better.

 

It is imperative in my mind he knocks it out the park so the Flyers can get this turned around as quick as possible.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

I agree.

 

Chuckles like Hextall leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to addressing team needs through free agency and through trades IMHO.

 

I hope he learned from his Braun trade and Gustafsson signing he must do better.

 

It is imperative in my mind he knocks it out the park so the Flyers can get this turned around as quick as possible.

 

What is knocking it out of the park though? What would be the one move that Fletcher could make that would make people confident in him? To me, and I expect people will come down hard on me for this,  there's nothing he can do. He's shown himself to be complacent to the point of incompetent. Not only that, but he seems to be OK with the idea of scapegoating players when they call crap out. When Gostisbehere dropped his pipebomb, that would have been the perfect time for Fletcher to hold a meeting with the players and let them air their grievances. Instead, he waived Gostisbehere. He's clueless to what's going on around him. A competent GM would have gone into the locker room to find out why players were upset. Instead, he didn't want to deal with that and thought it was easier to waive one player. And that week always sum up Fletcher - when things get tough, he looks for the easiest out. Give me a GM with a spine. 

[mojo1917]

He's shown himself to be complacent to the point of incompetent. Not only that, but he seems to be OK with the idea of scapegoating players when they call crap out. When Gostisbehere dropped his pipebomb, that would have been the perfect time for Fletcher to hold a meeting with the players and let them air their grievances. Instead, he waived Gostisbehere

@BobbyClarkeFan16

This is another area where i think Fletcher could improve.

He's a nice man.

He needs to embrace his inner bastard occasionally, definitely more than he has.

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

@flyercanuck

@ruxpin

My mention of draft picks wasn't meant to cast aspersions on Hextall's picks.

It was more to point out that the current top managers have done pretty well picking players in Minnesota and here.

You guys were saying you don't trust them to not **** up a pick in this year's draft -and i was saying I think their track record has been pretty good.

Fletch & Flahr have some blind spots, i think pro scouting is one, but, i don't  share the opinion that they are terrible evaluators of amateur talent.

Understood. Yeah, I kind of did go a different way than what you clearly intended.  

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

What is knocking it out of the park though?

 

Yeah not the greatest way to say that.

 

Someone who is going to come in and take the reins of being this defenses leader a Pronger or Kimmo type to Shepard the flock till they are ready to fend for themselves.

 

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

To me, and I expect people will come down hard on me for this,  there's nothing he can do.

 

You're entitled to your opinion and you could be right come this time next year.

 

I am holding out for hope.

 

Time will tell.

[SCFlyguy]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Shepard the flock till they are ready to fend for themselves

These sheep don't have it in them.