Couturier

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

And, like it or not, 30 other GMs would have made the same pick. Looking at Heiskanen, Makar, or Petersson is 100% 20/20 hindsight.

 

I totally agree. His injury history should have been enough to take GMs out of the comfort zone of taking the safe pick, but alas it was not. 

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

I totally agree. His injury history should have been enough to take GMs out of the comfort zone of taking the safe pick, but alas it was not. 

 

His injury history should have sent him back to Juniors for a year.

 

The organization* royally screwed that pick up six ways from Sunday.

[RonJeremy]

27 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

His injury history should have sent him back to Juniors for a year.

 

The organization* royally screwed that pick up six ways from Sunday.

After dealing with Lindros and his head injuries , I would have never picked a guy with a chronic  migraine problem. 

[OccamsRazor]

24 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

After dealing with Lindros and his head injuries , I would have never picked a guy with a chronic  migraine problem. 

 

IIRC he wasn't diagnosed with that at the time however he did have his injury concerns...but it was the Flyer's endless love for Centers that doomed them.

 

Either way the fcuked it all up.

 

And I'm sure it won't be the last one rhey screw up.

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

After dealing with Lindros and his head injuries , I would have never picked a guy with a chronic  migraine problem. 

 

He had a shoulder injury, then a sports hernia in Junior.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

it was the Flyer's endless love for Centers that doomed them.

 

They had spent a number of high draft picks on D and were looking to get a young forward.

 

The pick makes sense in all but hindsight.

 

Slotting him immediately into the lineup is the obvious mistake. "Many" said so at the time...

[OccamsRazor]

34 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

He had a shoulder injury, then a sports hernia in Junior.

 

This is why he should have been sent back to juniors (I know you know this) so he could make up for lost time on top of getting his game back against competition that if he was ready would have been on display then....but Ron went against his better judgement...but maybe Ron was pressured by his hall of fame bosses we'll never know...

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by OccamsRazor
Another lost season...

[flyercanuck]

11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

This is why he should have been sent back to juniors (I know you know this) so he could make up for lost time on top of getting his game back against competition that if he was ready would have been on display then....but Ron went against his better judgement...but maybe Ron was pressured by his hall of fame bosses we'll never know...

 

 

 

I'm sure it was the idiots above him. Hextall was patient almost to a fault (I personally don't think you ever hurt a prospect by leaving him down too long, and the best teams usually do just that)

 

I've said it before too, they likely forced him to sign JVR as a FA. He's about as UN-Hextall  a player as you can get.

 

I'd take him back as GM in a heartbeat over this clown we have now. Hextall had his faults. But at least the team was moving, slowly, in the right direction. The farm was completely restocked. He got us a goalie (maybe 2) a legit defenceman or 3 and some good forwards. It's all turned to crap since Fletcher came in. Hakstol was a terrible coach...Fletchers "team" of coaches were somehow worse. We can't even look forward to the draft anymore cause now we're back to throwing away draft picks instead of stockpiling them. He's turned the farm from one of the best in the league to the absolute worst. Remarkably fast. 

And it was sooo f***ing obvious to some of us that this is exactly what would happen. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by flyercanuck

[Digityman]

17 hours ago, radoran said:

 

That's where leadership steps in and you play for the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

That leadership simply isn't there. And if you let players get away with a "why bother" approach, it can be hard to get them back.

 

I keep harping on it, but it's the way Buffalo ended last year, started this year, and are playing even now. They're not quitting. They're playing.

 

You are absolutely correct, that's where leadership steps in to rally the troops as if they were climbing over a ridge running into certain death all for the colors on their flag.  Great leaders can supplant the individualism with institutionalism or in this case, the organization (crest on the front), just by their passion, demeanor, belief and rallying cry.   They don't have to necessarily lead by example.  Think Napoleon.  Tactical genius, could rally the Dalai Lama to war but wasn't good at actual combat.  

 

However, good leaders while they might have some of those characteristics, have to also lead by example or they won't be followed.   Think Richards:  The Shift.  (I still get shivers watching that)   Or Giroux:  The Hit.    While both Richards and Giroux can lead, the weren't great leaders.   Not since Keith Primeau (2006) have to Flyers had a great captain hold for that one year Pronger (2011-12) stepped in for a hot minute.  

 

Couturier came up under Giroux.  JVR isn't a leader.  Hayes, not sure I'd follow that guy into a grocery store.    That's the leadership core of this team right now and big reason I'd like to see all four of them traded/bought out before draft.  It's not that I don't think they aren't great players (Giroux & Couturier at least) but they are the leadership core and it is 'rotten'.    It's beyond time to flip the page and start over.  

 

While I also think the executive leaders of this organization are also rotten and I'd like them to be replaced, unfortunately I don't see that happening even more so then doubt all 4 players will be gone by the start of the 22/23 season. 

 

 

[elmatus]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

The farm was completely restocked. He got us a goalie (maybe 2) a legit defenceman or 3 and some good forwards.

 

I was a big Hexy fan. Not that anyone has the time, but any look into my posting history early to mid in Hexy's tenure pretty much shows this as an obvious statement. I spent a solid amount of time posting up thoughts on how Hexy's doing it right, and we just need to be patient. I remember posting how Giroux is looking like he may just be that guy, and Couts is going to be a solid 2nd punch. I remember talking about Provo and TK, and how they were going to be the support pieces needed to finally start seeing results.

 

Unfortunately, I was wrong. I think it was easy enough to believe all that. I certainly wanted to, and the approach Hexy took was refreshing after the Homercoaster we had endured prior. But it just didn't work. We should have seen the results of his plan some years ago, and those results never came. Not only did they not come, but they never even came close. This team has barely even made the playoffs over the last decade, let alone win anything once there, and even less make any real attempt at contention. They've never once seemed like they actually might have what it takes to contend, despite all those efforts.

 

I still remember those Hexy years fondly as a time where I still had hope, but I'm mature enough to admit that hope was obviously misplaced. In terms of tangible results, there really haven't been any. 

 

So now we have Fletch. I never took to Fletch in the same way as Hexy. I think that's because by the time Fletch came around, I was already realizing that the biggest problem with the team wasn't Hexy's vision, it's the lack of top end talent. Fletch came in saying something along the lines of "this team has all the pieces needed to contend right now", but it clearly did not and does not have those pieces.

 

That said, I thought the coaching change was a reasonable trial. If he was right in his assessment--again, I could have been wrong--then a coaching change could have made all the difference. Hakstol was a garbage coach. AV had a solid record. It made sense to try, and I was open to it.

 

I also frankly am not opposed to some of the player moves he made either. Atkinson seems decent. Ellis was a valiant effort and I do think worth a shot in the dark. 

 

What I object to more is definitely his handling of certain contracts though. Hayes was an obvious mistake, and Risto stands to be a second one before the year is done. I would also add that he now should absolutely feel an imperative to move the old core out and start planning for the future rather than the present. If he doesn't do so in 2022, that should absolutely be the final nail in his coffin as a GM for this team. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by elmatus

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, Digityman said:

It's beyond time to flip the page and start over. 

 

I'd pick up the phone talk to the new Canuck GM and see what you can do to swap for Boeser and Horvat...start there.

 

Go blockbuster if you can I'm down for it.

 

WTF not...

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, Digityman said:

While both Richards and Giroux can lead, the weren't great leaders.

 

I'll quibble a bit as Richards had been a captain - and a highly praised one - throughout his Junior career. Including the Memorial Cup and an IIHF Championship.

 

Much like other examples, he was thrust by incompetent management into a role too early because he was anointed "the next Bobby Clarke" from the day he was drafted. This was the same year that he played basically the entire season on anti-inflammatories having reported shoulder discomfort since training camp and then required surgery after the season. "Later" he developed a dependence on pills...

 

Giroux had never been a captain at any level of his professional development until they made him captain in the NHL.

 

I think the two are apples and oranges.

 

17 minutes ago, Digityman said:

It's not that I don't think they aren't great players (Giroux & Couturier at least) but they are the leadership core and it is 'rotten'.    It's beyond time to flip the page and start over.

 

Had Giroux (and/or Couturier) had the benefit of playing as an A under Pronger (longer) or even Richards, I think they would have seen their leadership skills develop much differently.  As it is, the "leadership core" that includes bringing in players who were in "leadership groups" at other underachieving franchises hasn't built a winning culture.

 

For me, a lot of it goes back to "winning the trades" which has resulted in anything but "winning" on the ice.

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'd pick up the phone talk to the new Canuck GM and see what you can do to swap for Boeser and Horvat...start there.

 

Go blockbuster if you can I'm down for it.

 

WTF not...

 

Curious what you think the Flyers have that the Canucks would want for those two?

 

"Hey, would you like to trade us your two young stars for some aging underachievers?"

 

I'm not against it, but if the roles were reversed and the Flyers had Horvat and Boeser and the Flyers roster was on the Canucks, what are you taking to give them up?

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

Curious what you think the Flyers have that the Canucks would want for those two?

 

Hhhhhmmmm.

 

Ok I'll start with...

 

Coots and TK

 

for 

 

Boeser and Horvat.

 

 

We can start there and tweak it...

 

Edit: Only reason I started with those two is Friedman said they were looking to trade those two so well I'm I starting the offer.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by OccamsRazor
bourbon isn't working

[tucson83]

20 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I was a big Hexy fan. Not that anyone has the time, but any look into my posting history early to mid in Hexy's tenure pretty much shows this as an obvious statement. I spent a solid amount of time posting up thoughts on how Hexy's doing it right, and we just need to be patient. I remember posting how Giroux is looking like he may just be that guy, and Couts is going to be a solid 2nd punch. I remember talking about Provo and TK, and how they were going to be the support pieces needed to finally start seeing results.

 

Unfortunately, I was wrong. I think it was easy enough to believe all that. I certainly wanted to, and the approach Hexy took was refreshing after the Homercoaster we had endured prior. But it just didn't work. We should have seen the results of his plan some years ago, and those results never came. 

 

I still remember those years fondly as a time where I still had hope, but I'm mature enough to admit that hope was obviously misplaced. In terms of tangible results, there really haven't been any. 

 

So now we have Fletch. I never took to Fletch in the same way as Hexy. I think that's because by the time Fletch came around, I was already realizing that the biggest problem with the team wasn't Hexy's vision, it's the lack of top end talent. Fletch came in saying something along the lines of "this team has all the pieces needed to contend right now", but it clearly did not and does not have those pieces.

 

That said, I thought the coaching change was a reasonable trial. If he was right in his assessment--again, I could have been wrong--then a coaching change could have made all the difference. Hakstol was a garbage coach. AV had a solid record. It made sense to try, and I was open to it.

 

I also frankly am not opposed to some of the player moves he made either. Atkinson seems decent. Ellis was a valiant effort and I do think worth a shot in the dark. 

 

What I object to more is definitely his handling of certain contracts though. Hayes was an obvious mistake, and Risto stands to be a second one before the year is done. I would also add that he now should absolutely feel an imperative to move the old core out and start planning for the future rather than the present. If he doesn't do so in 2022, that should absolutely be the final nail in his coffin as a GM for this team. 

 

fletch has to get talent in the offseason i dont care how he does it, cant ice this same team next year, it will be a major disaster.

 

about hextall's plan, it's the same problem that ottawa and buffalo are having, they keep thinking about we can just be competitive with our own picks without talented players on the roster, it's never going to work even if you had a crosby and malkin type, it's not enough. every team that has rebuild and been successful is building a team with more stars from other teams and not relying on your own picks to become stars, it's a recipe for disaster and it's happening to us.

 

it's fine to have young players save cap space that's the point of it so you can get stars and even if a young player is star that's great but you still need proven stars from other teams to speed the rebuild and be competitive.

Edited December 10, 2021 by tucson83

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Coots and TK

 

for 

 

Boeser and Horvat.

 

I must say I admire your optimism. Throw in a case of Pappy van Winkle and we might be onto something...

 

[tucson83]

10 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I'll quibble a bit as Richards had been a captain - and a highly praised one - throughout his Junior career. Including the Memorial Cup and an IIHF Championship.

 

Much like other examples, he was thrust by incompetent management into a role too early because he was anointed "the next Bobby Clarke" from the day he was drafted. This was the same year that he played basically the entire season on anti-inflammatories having reported shoulder discomfort since training camp and then required surgery after the season. "Later" he developed a dependence on pills...

 

Giroux had never been a captain at any level of his professional development until they made him captain in the NHL.

 

I think the two are apples and oranges.

 

 

Had Giroux (and/or Couturier) had the benefit of playing as an A under Pronger (longer) or even Richards, I think they would have seen their leadership skills develop much differently.  As it is, the "leadership core" that includes bringing in players who were in "leadership groups" at other underachieving franchises hasn't built a winning culture.

 

For me, a lot of it goes back to "winning the trades" which has resulted in anything but "winning" on the ice.

about the richards and carter days, this is what made homer a complete rebuild genus, he didnt think about just richards and carter carrying them and become stars, he thought about bringing in more talent because richards and carter werent enough to get us over the hump. if he pulled a hextall and hope that richards and carter would carry the team, we would the Edmonton oilers of tanking because it's not enough, you need more stars/talent to speed the rebuild.

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I must say I admire your optimism. Throw in a case of Pappy van Winkle and we might be onto something...

 

 

Which?

 

10 15 or 20 year?

 

Hey rumor was they were looking to move them. And we'll their salaries fit so whatelse is left do we have a deal?

 

Lindblom - Horvat - Boeser

Giroux - Frost - Atkinson

Laughton - Hayes - McEwen

Brassard - Thompson - Cates

 

Might be good top line.

 

Throw Farabee on it when he gets healthy.

 

Gives the Flyers a former Captain in Horvat when they trade Giroux at the deadline...

[mojo1917]

37 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Boeser and Horvat.

I've read that these guys are small and soft.

I think it is on this website.

@yave1964

Wrote:

Horvat, gifted center, great faceoff man can score but SOFT

Hughes can move the puck from the back end with the best of them but SOFT AND SMALL

Pettersson Human highlight real but SOFT AND PLAYS SMALL

Boeser Can snipe but SOFT

Hoglander Can score a bit with size but gets tossed off the puck easily

Podkolzin The next one, does something every night to excite but again, SUPER SOFT 

 

Didn't the Pens fans call Boeser "brittle Brock?"

Those two will be a total hit in Philly. 

 

I did like Horvat, I don't know what's happened with him that a guy like yave would say he's soft. 

But I trust his judgement to be objective and accurate.

 

Look, I'd piss on a sparkplug If I thought it would help the team, I reckon changes need to come from somewhere and getting more speed and skill would be a start. It's not like the Flyers are tough to play against now anyway. 

It just seems like those guys would be whipping boys the minute they take a maintenance day or go on a cold streak.

Edited December 10, 2021 by mojo1917

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Hey rumor was they were looking to move them.

 

Ah, I see - you meant that Vancouver wants to move Boeser and Horvat.

[OccamsRazor]

11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I've read that these guys are small and soft.

I think it is on this website.

@yave1964

Wrote:

Horvat, gifted center, great faceoff man can score but SOFT

Hughes can move the puck from the back end with the best of them but SOFT AND SMALL

Pettersson Human highlight real but SOFT AND PLAYS SMALL

Boeser Can snipe but SOFT

Hoglander Can score a bit with size but gets tossed off the puck easily

Podkolzin The next one, does something every night to excite but again, SUPER SOFT 

 

Didn't the Pens fans call Boeser "brittle Brock?"

Those two will be a total hit in Philly. 

 

I did like Horvat, I don't know what's happened with him that a guy like yave would say he's soft. 

But I trust his judgement to be objective and accurate.

 

Look, I'd piss on a sparkplug If I thought it would help the team, I reckon changes need to come from somewhere and getting more speed and skill would be a start. It's not like the Flyers are tough to play against now anyway. 

It just seems like those guys would be whipping boys the minute they take a maintenance day or go on a cold streak.

 

I get it but from what I have been seeing the last couple years is we are trading soft under performing players too.

 

And I'm willing to take a chance at this point.

 

Haven't seen them referred to as soft besides what you just added.

 

Besides they are supposed to be skilled.

 

I'm just tired of this same old shat we have seen for the past 5 years.

 

So I am willing to roll the dice here.

 

I am also willing to listen to any other offer someone may suggest as well.

 

Something has to give...

[elmatus]

41 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

fletch has to get talent in the offseason i dont care how he does it, cant ice this same team next year, it will be a major disaster.

 

about hextall's plan, it's the same problem that ottawa and buffalo are having, they keep thinking about we can just be competitive with our own picks without talented players on the roster, it's never going to work even if you had a crosby and malkin type, it's not enough. every team that has rebuild and been successful is building a team with more stars from other teams and not relying on your own picks to become stars, it's a recipe for disaster and it's happening to us.

 

it's fine to have young players save cap space that's the point of it so you can get stars and even if a young player is star that's great but you still need proven stars from other teams to speed the rebuild and be competitive.

 

Again, the type of talent we need is not something teams get in trades or in free agency. The type of players that anchor a contending team are very rarely ever traded. Teams hold on to them for as long as possible. If they're ever traded, it's when they're past their prime and no longer that type of player anymore. There's no realistic way I can think of that lands us the caliber of player we need right now in some sort of trade. Those players -- the ones that every contending team seems to need at least one or two of nowadays -- are virtually always drafted and developed by that franchise.

 

Your Crosby and Malkin example is a good one in fact. The Pens have those guys and an above average dman who only plays about half of any given season. They've taken pretty much just that with very little in the way of supplementary talent, and they've been contenders for the better part of the last... what... 12 years?

 

Chris Kunitz scored 35 goals in 13-14. How did he do it? He didn't. Crosby and Malkin did. Those two guys are a good 80% responsible for all of the success that franchise has had in recent history (and they've had a ton). That's what having that caliber of player can do.

 

Now granted, those two are a cut above even the elite cast (at least one of them is for sure), and we probably shouldn't come to the conclusion we need to have the best player in the world to win a cup. But we definitely need better than Giroux and Couts.

 

Bottom line, while I do agree a proper contending team needs to make moves to really cement their place and become a contender, they first need to have elite-level players to build on. The players that can be obtained via trades and FA are not that caliber. You can get a 30 year old Ellis or a 32 year old Atkinson, but you're not getting a Crosby and Malkin; you're not getting a Toews and Kane; you're not getting a Kucherov and Stamkos; you're not getting an Ovechkin and Backstrom. Those are not guys who are traded, at least not until they're well past their prime.

 

Consider what it would take to somehow get Barkov and Huberdeau or MacKinnon and Makar. What would we have that could ever snag McJesus and Draisaitl in a trade? Nothing. There's zero we could offer to get those guys, which is why they're not going to be traded anytime soon.

 

Sure, we can hope and pray that we pull off a St. Louis Blues for a year or whatever, but that seems an awful thing to try and bank on.

[radoran]

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I am also willing to listen to any other offer someone may suggest as well.

 

I would go picks and prospects for anyone over 25, take this down to the bones and look to build by adding some top flight FA in a year or two.

 

But we know they're not going to do that...

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I would go picks and prospects for anyone over 25, take this down to the bones and look to build by adding some top flight FA in a year or two.

 

But we know they're not going to do that...

 

Off topic sort of so I have to ask I think both of us were willing to give Risto a fair shake before we decided to make a call on him after they traded for him seeing how we sorely lack some Finn blood in the lineup before him.

 

So do you have an opinion of him yet?

 

I know I haven't really watched in a couple weeks but my gut tells me we should try and move him for whatever they can get for him and move on.

 

I don't hate him but it seems from what I have seen he lacks the ability to think the game real well in his own end and can't get out of position like Luke Schenn use to try to hit someone.

 

And his offense I guess is about as good as Sanheim's maybe a little less skilled.

 

So I have to say with all that is wrong with this team they can not afford to lock up 6-7 mill on a defenseman with this much short comings in his game.

 

So I try my best to move him to someone who may think they can unlock his skills so if I can get a 2nd and a B prospect for him I'm pulling the trigger...what say you?

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

So do you have an opinion of him yet?

 

Being the Finnophile I am, I have always liked the player. He had a lot more offensive side to the game before the Sabres brought in Ohmy Dahlin.

 

But he was never worth what they gave up for him. Never.

 

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

So I have to say with all that is wrong with this team they can not afford to lock up 6-7 mill on a defenseman with this much short comings in his game.

 

If they extend him at $6-7M then they are even worse than we thought. Ristolainen is not a cornerstone, $6-7M player.

 

Spoiler alert: they will extend him and he will be the next AndyMac...