Couturier

[Mad Dog]

Of all the things that's been plaguing this team over this 10-game losing streak, his play has been not simply frustrating; it's scary bad and mind boggling. We are talking the guy who only recently had 2 back to back 78-point seasons, was an unquestioned team MVP, and the Selke trophy winner, which, in this league, you don't win by accident.  Not so long ago, he was on the ice for every situation, was winning key battles, and simply put, played the most critical role for this team.  

 

He's being unrecognizable.  It's almost as if it's a different player who just happens to look like him. There's gotta be something awful going on with him, and the Flyers are not telling us. I can't explain or rationalize it any other way.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Mad Dog

[SCFlyguy]

He's been in the league for 10 years, has played a ton of games through some not-so-minor injuries.  He could definitely play better but age 29 is starting the downside of your career in today's NHL.

 

If you want to get upset about something, get upset about the idiot who signed him to an 8 year contract that hasn't even started yet.

 

I wanted Couts and Giroux traded at the deadline last year.

Edited December 9, 2021 by SCFlyguy

[Mad Dog]

1 minute ago, SCFlyguy said:

He's been in the league for 10 years, has played a ton of games through some not-so-minor injuries.  He could definitely play better but age 29 is starting the downside of your career in today's NHL.

 

If you want to get upset about something, get upset about the idiot who signed him to an 8 year contract that hasn't even started yet.

 

I wanted Couts and Giroux traded at the deadline last year.

 He could play better??? Like there is some room for improvement? 

 

Yes, players' skills begin to deteriorate at some point.  I wouldn't expect it to happen at 29 and I wouldn't expect it to happen so quickly and so dramatically... He has been a shadow of himself of only last year.  Could it be the money he was just paid that made him complacent and disinterested?  Well, if that's the case, this team is in much more trouble than we think.

[RonJeremy]

19 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

 He could play better??? Like there is some room for improvement? 

 

Yes, players' skills begin to deteriorate at some point.  I wouldn't expect it to happen at 29 and I wouldn't expect it to happen so quickly and so dramatically... He has been a shadow of himself of only last year.  Could it be the money he was just paid that made him complacent and disinterested?  Well, if that's the case, this team is in much more trouble than we think.

Coots needs to be traded,, he is a perfect second line center for a contending team.. As far as older,  high contract players go..Coots is the only guy that another team would want and he will get us the most back in a trade. We are stuck with JVR and Hayes.  So if we are doing a true rebuild ,trading Coots and G for some young NHL ready prospects can help rebuild quicker. We should also dump Risto who is an UFA. After losing in Buffalo for seven straight years do we really think he wants to stay with this loser team. We better unload him at the deadline or we will end up with nothing,  no way will he re-sign here and as bad as we need help on defense, he is not worth the 5-6 million contract he will be seeking. It's time to clean house.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

Of all the things that's been plaguing this team over this 10-game losing streak, his play has been not simply frustrating; it's scary bad and mind boggling. We are talking the guy who only recently had 2 back to back 78-point seasons, was an unquestioned team MVP, and the Selke trophy winner, which, in this league, you don't win by accident.  Not so long ago, he was on the ice for every situation, was winning key battles, and simply put, played the most critical role for this team.  

 

He's being unrecognizable.  It's almost as if it's a different player who just happens to look like him. There's gotta be something awful going on with him, and the Flyers are not telling us. I can't explain or rationalize it any other way.

 

Only 8 more years to watch this not long at all.

 

I blame Kevin Hayes....

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

Could it be the money he was just paid that made him complacent and disinterested? 

It could be he's disillusioned with his teammates, the system, injured, or a million other things.

why is it always the contract?

No, you ever listen to that guy talk?

If there is one dude on that roster that ****** cares he's it.

 

It's something else, you're right to point to his terrible play of late.

Associating his awful run of games with his contract is a tired and lazy idea.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by mojo1917

[mojo1917]

Also, to everyone.

Be careful wishing for a complete rebuild. 

I can point to a butt load of teams that are in a state of perpetual suck-i-tude because they got rid of everyone who could play only to draft more meh players.

The generational guys are called that for a reason.

They're not always there.

Shedding good players for picks and prospects might work this year, maybe the next. But shedding all of them for a bag of magic beans will mean many more years of awful hockey entertainment with no end in sight.

See: Philadelphia 76ers, Baltimore Orioles, Buffalo Sabres, Arizona Coyotes, Sacremento Kings, Texas Rangers...

I came up with that list in 10 seconds. 

 

I'd be for moving Giroux and maybe Provorov or Konecny if it replenishes the draft picks for the next 2 years and brings back "A" level prospects. 

I do think our young guys aren't as good as a lot of other team's young guys and that is problematic.

 

I also think, Ellis' return and a few other guys getting healthy will ruin all of our rebuilding plans. 

It gets Braun into a better role, it keeps our 3rd pairing from getting caved nightly, it would allow for experimentation maybe with 70 on the third pair.

 

The team finally has a good goaltender.  It "should" should be able to win with a bunch of +good players, no super-duper star required.

 

 

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Obviously not a diehard Flyer fan, but I HAVE been a fan of Sean Couturier for many years.
In fact, I've teased Flyer fans here and there over the years, and mentioned on other boards that I would have LOVED to see a deal between TB and PHI that would bring Coots over to the Lightning as their 2C, and dealing from their strength, send a pair of good forwards and maybe a pick for him.

I really always thought he was that good.

It is sad to see how far his play has fallen and for those wondering about his health, I think that may be a key, because I can't think of too many other Flyers whose GAF per minute ratio is higher than his.

Maybe he is also feeling the monumental pressure of losing in a hockey hotbed market like Philadelphia and tries to do TOO MUCH, perhaps trying to compensate (whether conciously or not) for the overall lack of production of the rest of the team.

Whatever the case is, at age 29, he should not be falling off any cliffs and should be one of the anchors that steadies this team.

Flyers have lots of problems, as the fanbase here has already well documented, so putting the blame on any single one player isn't fair, but there ARE certain ones who are supposed to bear the brunt of the credit when things go well, and blame when they don't, and Coots is one of them.

The goalie situation looks like it is finally solved, although I have to wonder if Carter Hart may not need a strait jacket by the time this season is over with.
The defensive coverage is STILL below par, and well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist like @phlfly to figure out that an absent Ryan Ellis has that all de-stabled.
Risto, for all the fanfare some people made, is honestly nothing more than a 4D-6D and anything above that status grade is just asking too much of him.

Young guys in the lineup have either regressed or stagnated, while vets, such as Giroux, Hayes, and JVR simply disappear more often than not.

I can't help but think though, that a Sean Couturier, with his head on right, and maybe fully healthy, if something is indeed nagging at him, would help solidify the team's defensive mindset.
But bottom line is, he can't do it alone. The leadership core of this group simply has to do what they there for, and that just isn't happening.

I don't know if trading Coots is the answer, unless of course, the Flyers are going to committ to a full rebuild, but if he is indeed traded, Chuck Fletcher better do his homework and maximize his return, because if there is something wrong with him that is fixable, and he is traded for pennies on the dollar, then Flyer management will not only look inept (some might say MORE inept), but you can bet he will come back to bite Philly in the arse every time he plays them.

[elmatus]

31 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Also, to everyone.

Be careful wishing for a complete rebuild. 

I can point to a butt load of teams that are in a state of perpetual suck-i-tude because they got rid of everyone who could play only to draft more meh players.

 

I get what your saying. Mind you, ours is one of the teams who are stuck in a state of perpetual suck-i-tude, and it's been that way for quite some time. 

 

I can't speak for others here, but when I talk of rebuilding, I mean trading guys like Couts and G (though he isn't as valuable as he once was). I say that for two reasons:

 

1) this team is not anywhere near contending. If anything, they're trending downward to the bottom tier of this league after a decade of being a bubble at best. Even if things start right now to somehow get much better, it will likely take years before this team sees measurable improvements. By then, G for sure and quite possible Couts also will be even less impactful as they are now. At some level, this becomes a question of asset management. Couts and G are assets with value, but their value is right now and diminishing every year. If they aren't enough to anchor a team into contender status, it makes sense to try and use those assets to build a team that is. Is trading them a surefire way to get proper young elite players to build around? Of course not, but it's *something* at least, which is a lot better than the nothing we've got going right now.

 

2) They are good players. They may have bad stretches, but they're better than many and will help a team win games. They are in some ways very responsible for the state of this team as a bubble team. Sure, generational talents may only come around rarely, but we may not even need the next McDavid to build a team. We do need players who are some of the best in the world, because no team in today's game wins anything without some of those guys. It just doesn't happen. And the vast majority of that caliber of player is drafted very early. Having guys like Giroux and Couts effectively means getting mid 1st round picks most of the time. Doing that largely takes us out of the game in terms of getting that caliber of player to build around. We're just not even in the running for them, aside from hoping to luck out with a lottery grab of someone like Kucherov or Pastrnak. Sure, that can happen, but it's essentially catching lightning in a bottle. I'm not a big fan of hopes and prayers as a means to build a contending hockey team.

 

So, yeah, i think Couts and G should be traded. Atkinson would be a good idea too, if he can be moved for something reasonable. I mean, don't just ship them for scraps, but shop them around and see what the highest bidder can offer.

 

I would also add that I like Giroux and Couts a lot. They've been bright points in an otherwise sombre period of this franchise's history. They both deserve a legit shot at a cup, and they're just not going to get it here. So a side part of me wants them traded out of respect to them. They caught a bad deal playing for this team during this time period through no fault of their own.

Edited December 9, 2021 by elmatus

[Mad Dog]

@TropicalFruitGirl26

 

All valid points - as always.  There is a lot that's wrong with the Flyers as the whole right now.  And the overarching issue is that it's not built properly; not from monetary standpoint, not in terms of depth, not in terms of team chemistry, not in terms of personnel, not in terms of damn anything... Arguing about this would be meaningless.  But I am just wondering about Couturier's individual play.  There are time when players go through spurs, and often times, the player's performance is a result - or a mirror image - of the overall team's performance, and vice versa.  But his performance was plain unrecognizable.  Giroux - his game didn't change much.  And statistically, he is en route to match - or actually exceed - his last year's numbers.  We can complain about Giroux - and a lot of this criticism would be deserved - but I don't really see much of a drop in his play. Konecny is not scoring, but he is active and, frankly, he is what he is. I think what we have seen from him two years ago may've been an aberration and he is at his ceiling. I am looking at the players from other struggling teams (like JT Miller on Vancouver, as an example), and their performance hasn't been affected by extraneous factors.

 

Couturier is playing like a totally different player, and in the worst possible way.  If it was just the lack of scoring, I could care less. People get back on track at no time; everybody goes through cold spells.  That's the easiest to fix.  But he is not being himself.  I was at the Carolina game 2 weeks ago, and was sitting in the front row.  I zoomed on his play specifically.  I'll tell you; THAT WAS SHOCKING.  He was losing just about every single one-on-one battle.  He was not paying the price in tight spots.  He was not checking players.  He was not covering open men in front.  He was inactive in his own zone.  In other words, all those things that made him successful and made him fans' favorite is being 100% lacking. Consistently  From game to game. Christ, in that game, he was losing one-on-one battles to Svechnikov, who on one particular play, just flat out overpowered Coots.  That was painful to watch...

 

There is just no way there is nothing going on with him individually...  

Edited December 9, 2021 by Mad Dog

[Mad Dog]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

It's something else, you're right to point to his terrible play of late.

Associating his awful run of games with his contract is a tired and lazy idea.

 

The only reason I mentioned contract was more in response to the comment made by SCFlyguy above.  I would like to think (read HOPE) that if anything, getting that contract actually instilled an increased sense of urgency and responsibility.  

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Also, to everyone.

Be careful wishing for a complete rebuild. 

I can point to a butt load of teams that are in a state of perpetual suck-i-tude because they got rid of everyone who could play only to draft more meh players.

The generational guys are called that for a reason.

They're not always there.

Shedding good players for picks and prospects might work this year, maybe the next. But shedding all of them for a bag of magic beans will mean many more years of awful hockey entertainment with no end in sight.

See: Philadelphia 76ers, Baltimore Orioles, Buffalo Sabres, Arizona Coyotes, Sacremento Kings, Texas Rangers...

I came up with that list in 10 seconds. 

 

I'd be for moving Giroux and maybe Provorov or Konecny if it replenishes the draft picks for the next 2 years and brings back "A" level prospects. 

I do think our young guys aren't as good as a lot of other team's young guys and that is problematic.

 

I also think, Ellis' return and a few other guys getting healthy will ruin all of our rebuilding plans. 

It gets Braun into a better role, it keeps our 3rd pairing from getting caved nightly, it would allow for experimentation maybe with 70 on the third pair.

 

The team finally has a good goaltender.  It "should" should be able to win with a bunch of +good players, no super-duper star required.

 

 

 

 

yeah i think relying on just draft picks on the whole roster alone isnt going to fix anything, i think the way to do it is sell and buy at the deadline sort of like the 2007 trade deadline. trade either vets for young prospects/picks or trade them for proven players that are on contracts and then in the offseason, keep your 2021 first round pick but trade the rest of the picks from the trade deadline for proven players on contracts and use free agency to fill the rest of the roster.

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

The goalie situation looks like it is finally solved, although I have to wonder if Carter Hart may not need a strait jacket by the time this season is over with.

 

Everything is going wrong for the Flyers and THIS worries me the most. Last night vs the Devils, middle of the 3rd, Hart made another save on yet another wide-open, point-blank shot. He got the whistle then dropped the puck to the ice, wound up and WHACKED it to the corner. He was showing his team how disgusted he was with their "effort" in front of him.

 

It's clearly getting to him. Hart knows his Save% should be at the top of the NHL with the way he's playing this year. He shook off last year and he's on top of his game now. But he's been hung out to dry so much this year it's getting to him.

 

He and Martin Jones have both played well. Goaltending is not the Flyers' problem. Unfortunately everything else is.

[radoran]

5 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

get upset about the idiot who signed him to an 8 year contract that hasn't even started yet.

 

Much like Voracek there was no need to sign that deal when they signed it. None.

 

They got a "hometown discount" - terrific. If he was going to do it then, he would likely do it now or at the end of this season.

[radoran]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

See: Philadelphia 76ers

 

The Sixers - and I don't watch the NBA much - have at least been entertaining and made the playoffs...

[Podein25]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The Sixers - and I don't watch the NBA much - have at least been entertaining and made the playoffs...

 

Is it because they "trusted the process"? Please tell me it is.

[mojo1917]

3 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

Is it because they "trusted the process"? Please tell me it is

All that sucking yielded only Jojo Embid.

Simmons won't play for the team.

3 other first rounders washed out or were traded.

In the NBA one guy is almost enough, but not really, the Batman needs a Robin or at least a Jim Gordon. 

 

 

The Flyers have missed on how many 1st picks?

It's a lot, it speaks to why they're so moribund right now.

German Rubstov, Nolan Patrick, Jay O'Brien, Samuel Morin, all guys taken with the first pick that aren't contributing to the team.

 

The process, is also a crapshoot. 

 

[Podein25]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

All that sucking yielded only Jojo Embid.

Simmons won't play for the team.

3 other first rounders washed out or were traded.

In the NBA one guy is almost enough, but not really, the Batman needs a Robin or at least a Jim Gordon. 

 

 

The Flyers have missed on how many 1st picks?

It's a lot, it speaks to why they're so moribund right now.

German Rubstov, Nolan Patrick, Jay O'Brien, Samuel Morin, all guys taken with the first pick that aren't contributing to the team.

 

The process, is also a crapshoot. 

 

 

I know nothing about basketball and don't care to know more than that. 

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

yeah i think relying on just draft picks on the whole roster alone isnt going to fix anything, i think the way to do it is sell and buy at the deadline sort of like the 2007 trade deadline. trade either vets for young prospects/picks or trade them for proven players that are on contracts and then in the offseason, keep your 2021 first round pick but trade the rest of the picks from the trade deadline for proven players on contracts and use free agency to fill the rest of the roster.

 

I agree for sure. That said, I do think the type of core elite player that is virtually essential nowadays is basically never obtained in trades. I mean, never is maybe too strong a word, but very very rarely at least. No team is trading these guys, because every team is trying to win, and those players are essential to being contenders. That caliber of player is almost always drafted and developed. Again, we can try to win a lottery ticket and get super lucky with another team mis-evaluating a certain player who turns out to be of that ilk, but that requires a ton of luck and really isn't something any GM should have as part of a gameplan.

 

As it stands for the Flyers right now, we don't have that skill level in the system. No player currently on the team fits that billing. We have a number of pretty solid supporting players, including some younger ones (TK, Farabee, Provo), and guys like Couts and Atkinson and Giroux who are still above average good, but a proper championship core needs players who are a cut above those guys, and we don't have them. That level of player is extremely hard to get via a trade or free agency or anything like that.

[Digityman]

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

It could be he's disillusioned with his teammates, the system, injured, or a million other things.

why is it always the contract?

No, you ever listen to that guy talk?

If there is one dude on that roster that ****** cares he's it.

 

^ This.  I can't see a someone in there 20's really giving there all on a team (situation) like this.  Giroux?  Yup, he's running out of years pretty quickly.  But the younger guys are probably thinking - no way are we making the playoffs, so why even bother?  Do the bare minimum not to lose the spot on the roster and that's about it.  

[radoran]

31 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

German Rubstov, Nolan Patrick, Jay O'Brien, Samuel Morin, all guys taken with the first pick that aren't contributing to the team.

 

The main problem there is where they are drafting. It's not like anybody else got a great player where Rubustov was taken. Having Max Jones or Tage Thompson isn't moving the needle on this roster.

 

Patrick did net them Ellis, who should be an effective player for them. It was a "miss" no doubt, especially with the three guys taken after him.

 

O'Brien is still in college and, again, they aren't really a K'Andre Miller or Issac Lundestrom away from competitiveness.

 

Morin was a reach when it happened and the injuries have been devastating.

 

Draft picks on the roster include Couturier, Laughton, Sanheim, LIndblom, Provorov, Konecny, Hart, Farabee. That's not a terrible haul from drafting for a ten year period where you're typically drafting in the middle to bottom of the first.

 

Frost is on the bubble. Allison is injured. There's a handful of other guys who are in the league - NAK, Cousins, Ghost.

 

Also, too, Giroux and... JVR.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, Digityman said:

no way are we making the playoffs, so why even bother?  Do the bare minimum not to lose the spot on the roster and that's about it.  

 

That's where leadership steps in and you play for the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

That leadership simply isn't there. And if you let players get away with a "why bother" approach, it can be hard to get them back.

 

I keep harping on it, but it's the way Buffalo ended last year, started this year, and are playing even now. They're not quitting. They're playing.

[mojo1917]

@radoran

 

The fact remains those are picks that haven't pushed old man Giroux down the line-up or bolstered the talent level on the team.

It is a sizeable gap regardless of where the picks were taken.  The team could really use some more Konecny aged guys with skill and speed. 

I'm not really trying to point a finger or find fault, I'm stating that there is a "generation" of missed first picks that has hampered the organization.

[radoran]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm not really trying to point a finger or find fault, I'm stating that there is a "generation" of missed first picks that has hampered the organization.

 

Yeah, but I'm saying there really isn't a "generation" of them. From 2011 to 2018 they have seven first round picks on the roster. Eight years, seven players. Eight if you include Frost. That's not terrible. That they're not "good enough" is, again, a product of where they were picking, not generally who they picked.

 

The biggest problem - aside from being a middling, bubble playoff team for a decade - is whiffing on the #2 overall with Patrick. And, like it or not, 30 other GMs would have made the same pick. Looking at Heiskanen, Makar, or Petersson is 100% 20/20 hindsight.

 

They didn't "miss" much in 2018 with O'Brien (who could still contribute) or 2016 with Rubustov. I'll give you 2013 and Morin who was an unnecessary project pick in what has been a deep draft. But they still have players on the roster who represent the equivalent of a first round pick in each year from 2011 to 2018.

Edited December 9, 2021 by radoran

[Mad Dog]

@radoran

 

What kills me is that in 2017, Mittelstadt, Necas, Suzuki, Josh Norris, Robert Thomas, and Tolvanen were all taken after the Flyers selected Patrick.  I deliberately left Makar, Heiskanen and  Ellias Pettersson out, because, as you noted, these 3 were all taken higher than projected.  But these are all the players the Flyers *could* have drafted and who are all producing for their respective teams right now and for years to come.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Mad Dog