(Current rostered players on) Tort's must go list?

[OccamsRazor]

11 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

He was just poison to the results for anybody he played many minutes with

 

Exactly he didn't have anyone on the Flyers who could cover for him like Brett Pesce did for the Canes.

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Still...unless it was something personal I agree with DeAngleo it was ridiculous for Tortorella to sit him 5 straight games. Everybody knows DeAngelo's history of being an a-hole and if that was the reason - fine.

 

But from a hockey standpoint? Come on. The guy blew coverage and got scored on all year - this year and every other year. Did it suddenly dawn on Tortorella in Game 76 that this guy can't play defense?

 

The Flyers weren't going anywhere; winning games only hurt their draft position. So why embarrass the guy at the end of the season? DeAngelo's history and Tortorella's are one and the same: both can be real assholes.

 

 

Never been a fan of either Tortorella or DeAngelo. But Tortorella wasn't Fletchers choice, and he was a bigger influence on getting him fired, so I'm on his side here. 

 

And before anyone brings it up...of course DeAngelos play had plenty to do with Fletchers firing. 

[CoachX]

I find it amusing that there is any sympathy or understanding for the guy. He was lambasted as a douche from the day he was signed. None of us wanted that move. So what he got benched? Seriously who cares. He isn't a part of this team moving forward and nothing he would have done in those games would've changed anything, unless he took of his skate and stabbed someone 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

He isn't a part of this team moving forward and nothing he would have done in those games would've changed anything

 

Flyers do have some good pieces to work with. They just need a star or two.

 

 

Center helped needed badly.

 

[radoran]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Flyers do have some good pieces to work with. They just need a star or two.

 

This is it. The Flyers have always had "good" players. They have not had a generational player since Lindros and haven't had a truly "great" player since... Pronger?

 

They have to scuttle the idea of putting together a rag tag group of grizzled vets who finally put it all together in a magical postseason run.

 

I think Briere is doing that.

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, radoran said:

They have to scuttle the idea of putting together a rag tag group of grizzled vets who finally put it all together in a magical postseason run.

 

 

That single handedly is the best description of Homer's plan I've ever seen.

 

And it happened once surely it could happen again is what they are hoping for.

[GratefulFlyers]

23 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Never been a fan of either Tortorella or DeAngelo. But Tortorella wasn't Fletchers choice, and he was a bigger influence on getting him fired, so I'm on his side here. 

 

Fair enough. I like how Tortorella handled the Flyers this year and like you I am eternally grateful for the part he played in getting Fletcher fired. But this was a dick move plain and simple*.

 

*unless there was a personality/attitude/etc. problem...that (so far) they've kept to themselves.

 

Five straight games - especially the final 5 of the season - that is a gigantic FU to the player. Any other coach I'd give him the benefit of the doubt but Tortorella? The "personality/attitude problem" may have been his.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

14 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

that is a gigantic FU to the player. Any other coach I'd give him the benefit of the doubt but Tortorella? The "personality/attitude problem" may have been his.

 

That's karma...it's usually him giving a gigantic FU to his team.

[flyer4ever]

Chuckles gave up 3 picks for TDA. Torts in his infinite wisdom completely devalued the player and made him worthless as an asset. I hope Briere fires him sooner than later. He's a human turd. Perhaps Bettman will hire him.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

Chuckles gave up 3 picks for TDA. Torts in his infinite wisdom completely devalued the player and made him worthless as an asset

So you're saying TDA is a good player and it was a smart move for the Flyers to trade for him?

[flyer4ever]

11 hours ago, CoachX said:

So you're saying TDA is a good player and it was a smart move for the Flyers to trade for him?

Didn't say that at all. You can read what I said. 

[GratefulFlyers]

13 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Chuckles gave up 3 picks for TDA. Torts in his infinite wisdom completely devalued the player and made him worthless as an asset. I hope Briere fires him sooner than later. He's a human turd. Perhaps Bettman will hire him.

Even though to me Tortorella’s benching him 5 games seemed out of line, I don’t think Tortorella or any coach can devalue DeAngelo. He’s pretty much taken care of that himself. 

[CoachX]

38 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Didn't say that at all. You can read what I said. 

I did. You said Tortorella "devalued" and made him "worthless". That must mean you feel that TDA had value and worth before. Right?

[flyer4ever]

No arguments about TDA with anyone in this group. No arguments that chuckles was the worst sign in the history of hockey. Perhaps I am not being clear enough, but the coach seems more interested in winning his personality battles with signed players than doing whats best for the franchise going forward. It is quite ironic, to me anyway, that the coach should have been the GM hire 5 years ago, rather than a headstrong coach who thinks he can fix whats broken in Flyerland by benching horrible acquisitions, when he should have been putting them in position to succeed in order to give them some, however small, value at the trade deadline. 

Winning games against non playoff teams in February was counter productive to the future of the Flyers. The current nucleus that showed some promise is still a mediocre group at best, including the coach. It needs to be torn down to the bones. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, IMHO dreaming in Holmgren technicolor.

We all want the same thing here, we do have different opinions on how best to get there, but they are just that, opinions, not hard facts. If we were all the geniuses some of us purport to be we would all have multiple cup rings and banners hanging from our rafters.

[CoachX]

34 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Even though to me Tortorella’s benching him 5 games seemed out of line, I don’t think Tortorella or any coach can devalue DeAngelo. He’s pretty much taken care of that himself. 

This was my thought. I think this is a prime example of hating the coach more than you hate player.

 

Or it's a misguided opinion

[CoachX]

2 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

No arguments about TDA with anyone in this group. No arguments that chuckles was the worst sign in the history of hockey. Perhaps I am not being clear enough, but the coach seems more interested in winning his personality battles with signed players than doing whats best for the franchise going forward. It is quite ironic, to me anyway, that the coach should have been the GM hire 5 years ago, rather than a headstrong coach who thinks he can fix whats broken in Flyerland by benching horrible acquisitions, when he should have been putting them in position to succeed in order to give them some, however small, value at the trade deadline. 

Winning games against non playoff teams in February was counter productive to the future of the Flyers. The current nucleus that showed some promise is still a mediocre group at best, including the coach. It needs to be torn down to the bones. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, IMHO dreaming in Holmgren technicolor.

We all want the same thing here, we do have different opinions on how best to get there, but they are just that, opinions, not hard facts. If we were all the geniuses some of us purport to be we would all have multiple cup rings and banners hanging from our rafters.

Defensive much?

 

Blaming Torts for this train wreck is a totally unfair. Staying specific to the point, how does sitting an a-hole player, who doesn't have any part in the the teams future, translate to not, "doing whats best for the franchise going forward"?

[JR Ewing]

I just can't see how sitting DeAngelo greatly changed the perception of him or devalued him outside of Philadelphia. Everybody already knows what he is: a guy who gives up a lot more than he gets and has had attitude issues. I'd be surprised if those 5 games did much to change opinions one way or another.

 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Defensive much?

 

Blaming Torts for this train wreck is a totally unfair. Staying specific to the point, how does sitting an a-hole player, who doesn't have any part in the the teams future, translate to not, "doing whats best for the franchise going forward"?

 

His main goal was implementing a system and establishing order amongst the players.

 

He showed them hat he wasn't ******** around about buying in. If you don't he will sit your ass because he has a ship to run and he wants to coach the ones who are buying and are part of the future here.

 

The ones that were singled out and benched can look in the mirror he told you - you didn't believe he would do and well he showed your ass now sit the fcuk down and shut the fcuk up and wait for your exit review buh bye good luck in the future.

 

I don't feel sorry for them he did what i wanted done- didn't GAF how he did it as long as he did it.

 

And well those guys JVR, TDA and Hayes are on their way out good. And they won't be alone soon.

 

They were all given a chance and they failed stop the whining and pack your damn bags.

[SCFlyguy]

Isn’t JVR an UFA?  Even I don’t think the Flyers are dumb enough to resign him.

 

I don’t think Hayes and TDA are going anywhere unless DB is dumb enough to send picks to do it.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

I don’t think Hayes and TDA are going anywhere unless DB is dumb enough to send picks to do it

Holmgren is his mentor...

 

Just saying 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

His main goal was implementing a system and establishing order amongst the players.

 

He showed them hat he wasn't ******** around about buying in. If you don't he will sit your ass because he has a ship to run and he wants to coach the ones who are buying and are part of the future here.

 

The ones that were singled out and benched can look in the mirror he told you - you didn't believe he would do and well he showed your ass now sit the fcuk down and shut the fcuk up and wait for your exit review buh bye good luck in the future.

 

I don't feel sorry for them he did what i wanted done- didn't GAF how he did it as long as he did it.

 

And well those guys JVR, TDA and Hayes are on their way out good. And they won't be alone soon.

 

They were all given a chance and they failed stop the whining and pack your damn bags.

 

I love Torts!

[RonJeremy]

36 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Holmgren is his mentor...

 

Just saying 

Hayes is a solid third line center at three million a year.  Columbus was looking for a center,  so the Flyers will have to eat 3-4 million of Hayes' contract over the remaining three years in order to unload him. It's still way better than paying him seven million, taking up a roster spot and having his lazy habits rub off on the young guys. If we get a third round pick back that's a bonus.  TDA will probably have to remain with the team until next year's deadline and then the Flyers can retain half his salary and dump him to a team that needs a PP specialist for the playoffs. Otherwise , the most I'd give to get rid of him is a 5th rounder or maybe a player that we were gonna dump anyway. There's always a team that has to hit the cap floor.

[GrittyForever]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:15 AM, RonJeremy said:

Hayes is a solid third line center at three million a year.  Columbus was looking for a center,  so the Flyers will have to eat 3-4 million of Hayes' contract over the remaining three years in order to unload him. It's still way better than paying him seven million, taking up a roster spot and having his lazy habits rub off on the young guys. If we get a third round pick back that's a bonus.  TDA will probably have to remain with the team until next year's deadline and then the Flyers can retain half his salary and dump him to a team that needs a PP specialist for the playoffs. Otherwise , the most I'd give to get rid of him is a 5th rounder or maybe a player that we were gonna dump anyway. There's always a team that has to hit the cap floor.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the CBA let's you do that. You can eat half the salary in the first year (and a second team is allowed to eat another half of the half if you want) but the next year is back on the team you traded him to. I could be wrong though, cap stuff gets too confusing and generally I can't be bothered.

 

After reading over all the quotes and the 32 Thoughts thing it seems to me they are hedging on Hayes because they know he will hard to deal. De'Angelo who tf knows as Torts says they have to work it out man to man so to speak behind closed doors. Given his past, I suspect he simply doesn't do what he's told but again, dealing him will be hard. I wouldn't be surprised if he is here until the next deadline, when some team will take a chance on a D man for a playoff run. 

Konecny is probably easiest to trade so he might be. I also suspect Provorov gets moved just because they want picks and want to "do something". Honestly, it's going to be slow and painful. 

[flyercanuck]

On 4/17/2023 at 11:18 AM, SCFlyguy said:

Isn’t JVR an UFA?  Even I don’t think the Flyers are dumb enough to resign him.

 

 Well it wouldn't be the first time. 

 

 

On 4/17/2023 at 11:18 AM, SCFlyguy said:

 

I don’t think Hayes and TDA are going anywhere unless DB is dumb enough to send picks to do it.

 

 

If they retain part of their contracts they're moveable. Nothing of great value mind you, but the value is in getting rid of them.

[aziz]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:15 AM, flyer4ever said:

Perhaps I am not being clear enough, but the coach seems more interested in winning his personality battles with signed players than doing whats best for the franchise going forward.

 

fwiw, i think that's exactly part of tort's approach:  his personality will override the players, in situations where the player's personality conflicts with the coach's plan.  a coach's philosophy is in a large sense a manifestation of his personality, and a team's structure and deployment is built from that.  if that coach has a player that insists on manifesting his own "-ness", that is a problem.  a fly in the ointment.  sand in the oil.

 

if torts put the dude out game after game, and he refused to play ball, resulting in the 26th worst +/- in the league, yeah, bench the a**hole (full disclosure, i have a real problem with defensemen that "lead" their team in negative +/-).  that guy isn't playing a team game.  that's the thing with torts, he doesn't tend to see the game as being won by big numbers, he sees the game being won by collective effort, 18 skaters on the same page.  naive?  maybe.  i can't help but support it, though.  18 mediocre players can do impressive things, if they are on the same page.  they HAVE to be on the same page, though.  anyone not buying in.......

 

go-my-own-way players like TDA and hayes, they deserve no time on a team desperate for an identity.  they are the opposite of a team concept.  yes, they may be able to help a team with a rock solid core, as plug-ins around the edges.  they do not, however, offer anything worth building around, and represent an actual obstacle to that end.

 

torts benching TDA changes nothing about him in terms of trade-worthiness.  no one is or was stupid enough to think he was a trade-off-free add to their team.  then and now, it is and was understood he will hurt you badly taking regular shifts, but can help in very specific situations.  a team with the luxury of building around those situations will see him as valuable now as they did before his benching.  there was never any way to showcase him as anything else.  his team leading -27 was achieved while dressing, after all.

 

the point is: yes.  torts instigated a personality pissing match with his overpaid players.  and frankly, good.  the point of a coach is to establish a team identity, and get players to buy into and execute it.  players like hayes and TDA don't do that.  they play their own game, regardless of demands, feedback or results, and so see pine.  to my mind, that's exactly correct.

 

torts didn't destroy TDA's trade value.  TDA did that all by himself.  torts just stopped letting him hurt the team further.  right on.  and that is best for the franchise.

 

edit:  i should add, the team-before-name approach doesn't work very well with legitimate star players.  in those cases, that/those players actually should advise the team's character, and torts doesn't do well with that.  if you have a lineup of jobbers, he's really the guy to have at the helm.  if you have standouts on the team, though, players that really move the needle at a league-wide level, probably need to find someone else.  if the flyers pull through with their 6.5% chance at bedard, for example.  would make for a really interesting offseason for briere, because i don't know the coach and the marque would be well matched.

Edited April 22, 2023 by aziz