On Drafting 7th and the Seattle Kraken Model of Development

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I watched Chris Maher's NHL Draft Lottery "Live" on YouTube and thought there was a Presidential assassination.  We didn't move up...no miracle.  OK, we didn't move down.  No big deal.

 

Earlier in the day I read this piece on the Kraken:

 

Kraken depth at forefront during run in Stanley Cup Playoffs (nhl.com)

 

They do not have superstars.  But they have a four really good lines that can run opponents in circles while wearing down the defense.  There is no traditional "fourth line."

 

Apply that to the Flyers' cap-challenged world.  Maybe we should trade down to the 10th spot, pick up another second this year or next (or a prospect) and get our **** together with a balanced attack?  Our fourth line can check and help out on PK....what else?  Fight?  

 

This is food-for-thought, but as the article notes, the Kraken's success may lead to some rethinking about team architecture.  It may be particularly relevant for the Flyers if "subtraction" does not go as well as planned.

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

 

[tucson83]

it's a moneyball rebuild, i think that's the way the flyers should build the team, i think the 2023 is going to be another evaluation year if the prospects are good or not and the 2024 offeason is going to be the year for the aggressive retool of picking up reasonable nhl players all over the roster and a great goalie whether it's in our system or in fa, that's the way we should build this roster.

[Howie58]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

it's a moneyball rebuild, i think that's the way the flyers should build the team, i think the 2023 is going to be another evaluation year if the prospects are good or not and the 2024 offeason is going to be the year for the aggressive retool of picking up reasonable nhl players all over the roster and a great goalie whether it's in our system or in fa, that's the way we should build this roster.

Let's hope the new management is better at cost-effective trading than its predecessor.  I agree that '24 might be marginally better than this year, at best.  But the fanbase gets it.  

[CoachX]

So we should follow and deploy the model used by the coach we fired? That makes perfect sense in Flyerland

[RonJeremy]

8 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I watched Chris Maher's NHL Draft Lottery "Live" on YouTube and thought there was a Presidential assassination. 

 

 

No such luck…..deep state, NSA, FBI, CIA and censors…that was a joke.

Edited May 9, 2023 by RonJeremy

[RonJeremy]

30 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So we should follow and deploy the model used by the coach we fired? That makes perfect sense in Flyerland

Yes that was the Seattle crack head model.

[pilldoc]

10 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I watched Chris Maher's NHL Draft Lottery "Live" on YouTube and thought there was a Presidential assassination.  We didn't move up...no miracle.  OK, we didn't move down.  No big deal.

 

Earlier in the day I read this piece on the Kraken:

 

Kraken depth at forefront during run in Stanley Cup Playoffs (nhl.com)

 

They do not have superstars.  But they have a four really good lines that can run opponents in circles while wearing down the defense.  There is no traditional "fourth line."

 

Apply that to the Flyers' cap-challenged world.  Maybe we should trade down to the 10th spot, pick up another second this year or next (or a prospect) and get our **** together with a balanced attack?  Our fourth line can check and help out on PK....what else?  Fight?  

 

This is food-for-thought, but as the article notes, the Kraken's success may lead to some rethinking about team architecture.  It may be particularly relevant for the Flyers if "subtraction" does not go as well as planned.

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

 

 

In all fairness, and I believe @radoran made mention of this.  The Kracken had a head start in building their team by selecting #1 player from each NHL franchise.  A third of the their current line-up (8 players) are still on the roster from their inaugural roster last year.  When you get a head start like that, it makes it easier to fill in the holes.

 

In addition Ron Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fletch. 

 

That right there is why the Kracken are where they are.

 

In addition they where able to draft Shane Wright (#4 Overall) who will be a super star in the future and drafted soon to be star Matty Berniers #2 overall in the 2021 Entry Draft.

 

Unless the the Flyers are gifted drafting 2 players in the top 5 and being able to pick a player from each team, following the Seattle blueprint will be difficult.

 

I get the point of having a team with non-super stats but only TK would crack top 5 in PTS if on the Kracken.

 

  vs. 

 

Again.... I get the point you were trying to make .... I just think it is an unfair comparison and unreasonable way to build the Flyers as the current roster was constructed 2 very different ways.

[GrittyForever]

2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

 A third of the their current line-up (8 players) are still on the roster from their inaugural roster last year.  When you get a head start like that, it makes it easier to fill in the holes.

Consider this a different way though. In ONE YEAR they turned over 2/3 of their roster. 

[tucson83]

10 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

In all fairness, and I believe @radoran made mention of this.  The Kracken had a head start in building their team by selecting #1 player from each NHL franchise.  A third of the their current line-up (8 players) are still on the roster from their inaugural roster last year.  When you get a head start like that, it makes it easier to fill in the holes.

 

In addition Ron Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fletch. 

 

That right there is why the Kracken are where they are.

 

In addition they where able to draft Shane Wright (#4 Overall) who will be a super star in the future and drafted soon to be star Matty Berniers #2 overall in the 2021 Entry Draft.

 

Unless the the Flyers are gifted drafting 2 players in the top 5 and being able to pick a player from each team, following the Seattle blueprint will be difficult.

 

I get the point of having a team with non-super stats but only TK would crack top 5 in PTS if on the Kracken.

 

  vs. 

 

Again.... I get the point you were trying to make .... I just think it is an unfair comparison and unreasonable way to build the Flyers as the current roster was constructed 2 very different ways.

vegas had no stars on their roster in their first year, you telling me that cant work either? or the hurricanes without their top 2 players and are destroying the devils in the playoffs that have top 5 players? this is what i cant understand is why is always about stars and not about depth?

 

you need depth and goaltending to win cups, why did tampa didnt fold in 2020 playoffs and won it all when they lost stamkos? or heck why did the blues win the cup without a top 5 star? are you telling me you dont see a trend here?

[pilldoc]

25 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

the hurricanes without their top 2 players

 

Martin Necas is a stud in the making we are watching him blossom in front of our very eyes.  He was drafted #12 overall in 2017.  I would take Necas in a heart beat.

 

Kotkaniemi is another player who I would take in a heart beat.  Drafted #3 overall by Montreal in 2018.  He too is blossoming in front of our very eyes.  He just needed to get out of Montreal.

 

These are young stars right now.

 

34 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

vegas had no stars on their roster in their first year,

 

So MAF is not a star?  Hmmm ....you lost your credibility right there.  MAF was a proven goaltender winning the Stanley Cup with the Pens. He goes 29-13 with a 0.297 SV% and a 2.24 GAA in their inaugural year.

 

The most important pick Vegas made in June's NHL expansion draft was the goaltender exposed by the Pittsburgh Penguins. Marc-Andre Fleury had just won his third Stanley Cup, appearing in 15 playoff games while Matt Murray recovered from injury.

Fleury, with a 1.68 goals-against average in the playoffs, is a leading candidate for the Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP.

 

So right there you are just plain wrong .......

 

Knights general manager George McPhee and head coach Gerard Gallant made other savvy selections in the draft, such as forwards William Karlsson and Jonathan Marchessault.

 

Jonathan Marchessault has his breakout year with 27G 48A for 75 PTS played on the Panthers 1st and 2nd line before going to Vegas.

William Karlsson was buried in that mess in Columbus goes 43G 35A for 78 PTS.

 

I agree depth is important but the key to the success for both Vegas and Seattle was that they were able to build a team correctly from the get go by choosing a player from every team ....

 

 

[CoachX]

So we fans clamor for years for a rebuild. Now that it's here, we don't want to wait and let it happen. Now we want some experimental science project to get us in the playoffs right away?

 

Yep. That makes sense

[CoachX]

5 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

So MAF is not a star?  Hmmm ....you lost your credibility right there

Really, this was the statement that did it?

[radoran]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

vegas had no stars on their roster in their first year, you telling me that cant work either?

 

I remember the Cup parade in Vegas. It was crazy.

 

Oh, wait...

 

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

the hurricanes without their top 2 players and are destroying the devils in the playoffs that have top 5 players?

 

The Devils are falling into the "playoff experience" trap that afflicts many teams emerging after a long absence.

 

Carolina is a deep, experienced team. They have an experienced coach. Solid home ice atmosphere.

 

That said, if your only goal is to win a playoff round or two every year, then you can do that.

 

If your goal is to win a Stanley Cup you need to do something different 90+% of the time.

 

Citing the exception to the rule (Blues) doesn't invalidate the rule. Nor does it make the exception an example to build upon.

[CoachX]

Quite simply, the Flyers need to do a complete rebuild. Anything else is a waste of time. Its long overdue. Nothing else has worked. They need to develop a sound plan and strategy, and give it a chance to work. You can't fire the GM or coach every couple of years becasue you aren't seeing the quick results you want. If DB is the GM choice, then let him do the job. He needs to decide the direction, put it in place, and stay the course. I think most will agree the draft will be the answer to get this going in the right direction. They need to make a good choice at 7. The days of wasting the number 2 overall needs to change. I will happily support our team while they go through this. If they jump ship, chase wild hybrid plans that happen to work out for one team, or start chasing over the hill FA's, I will happily find something to stream. Im catching up on the shows I never watched back when the Flyers were worth my time

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

He needs to decide the direction, put it in place, and stay the course. 

To jump on your point here, I don't think there has been a direction for quite some time.

There is no overarching plan nor style of play / type of player the organization is known for. 

Not since the 90s anyway IMO.

 

I'd love to see a clear direction develop.

[CoachX]

Let's talk about "the plan". It is widely agreed that DB will be the next GM. Ok. I don't like it, but who cares what I think. But, if the interim tag is going to be removed, what is the hold up? If the argument is that they are waiting to sign the new Pres, that makes no sense. Does anyone really think they will hire a Pres who would object to DB as GM? If that person did, why would they hire him/her? They wouldn't. So that tells me that Torts and DB are already working on whatever the plan is. They have to be, right? The draft is over. You know where you are picking, and probably know who. You should also be working whatever avenues are allowed to be laying the foundation for how you will jettison the junk from the lineup. Other have eluded to a shakeup in the hierarchy. Against my better judgment, I think that is coming. So a plan, if not already laid out, will be prior to the draft

 

 

[radoran]

34 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Let's talk about "the plan". It is widely agreed that DB will be the next GM. Ok. I don't like it, but who cares what I think. But, if the interim tag is going to be removed, what is the hold up? If the argument is that they are waiting to sign the new Pres, that makes no sense. Does anyone really think they will hire a Pres who would object to DB as GM? If that person did, why would they hire him/her? They wouldn't. So that tells me that Torts and DB are already working on whatever the plan is. They have to be, right? The draft is over. You know where you are picking, and probably know who. You should also be working whatever avenues are allowed to be laying the foundation for how you will jettison the junk from the lineup. Other have eluded to a shakeup in the hierarchy. Against my better judgment, I think that is coming. So a plan, if not already laid out, will be prior to the draft

 

I don't know that we will see "the plan" outlined for us as much as we will see it executed or not. Where do they go from here and, to your point, how do they get there.

 

This team will now have had back to back Top 10 picks. Which is great and adds talent, but it's not a matter of "assembling a good team" as much as it is "assembling a team that can beat the other teams in your division and Conference," much less league.

 

For the VeeGee years, there was a roster that had "good players" but the players were simply never better than the players on other teams in their division.

 

The Flyers don't need to build a "good" roster that "can compete" - they need to build a championship roster. That's the challenge before them.

 

And championship rosters put simply have superstar players.

 

I was there for Tippett's first hat trick. I bought a new hat. Is Tippett going to be a superstar? Will Gauthier?

 

Or are we going to be there with Nashville, Minnestoa, Winnepeg, and quite probably Carolina always wondering why they don't get over the hump.

 

Superstar players don't guarantee championships. They make it a whole heckuva lot easier, though.

 

I think we're back to where we were when Hextall replaced Holmgren and had to spend 2-3 years just digging out of the mess. Like, maybe Hayes isn't "gone" this offseason, much like VLC wasn't "gone" in Hextall's first.

 

A rebuild done right will take the time and make the moves that are available when they are available. If that means we get another year of Kevin Hayes making JVR look motivated...

 

^official GIF of the rebuild^

[CoachX]

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

To jump on your point here, I don't think there has been a direction for quite some time.

 

 

Obvious by the action or lack thereof at the deadline by the guy who i don't even want to name anymore...

 

...but it's suppose to be different this time.

 

I know...........let me have this one.

[OccamsRazor]

52 minutes ago, radoran said:

Where do they go from here and, to your point, how do they get there.

 

Sorry for the terrible analogy but it is good to be like weight loss don't expect a lot of it to come off quickly it will take some time...little by little i think if they remain disciplined in no trying to acquire any big name talent right now and just focus on remove what we know already doesn't belong. 

 

But we'll they?

[flyer4ever]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:37 AM, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I watched Chris Maher's NHL Draft Lottery "Live" on YouTube and thought there was a Presidential assassination.  We didn't move up...no miracle.  OK, we didn't move down.  No big deal.

 

Earlier in the day I read this piece on the Kraken:

 

Kraken depth at forefront during run in Stanley Cup Playoffs (nhl.com)

 

They do not have superstars.  But they have a four really good lines that can run opponents in circles while wearing down the defense.  There is no traditional "fourth line."

 

Apply that to the Flyers' cap-challenged world.  Maybe we should trade down to the 10th spot, pick up another second this year or next (or a prospect) and get our **** together with a balanced attack?  Our fourth line can check and help out on PK....what else?  Fight?  

 

This is food-for-thought, but as the article notes, the Kraken's success may lead to some rethinking about team architecture.  It may be particularly relevant for the Flyers if "subtraction" does not go as well as planned.

 

Best,

 

Howie

 

 

Only difference is the Kraken picked players in their late 20's with years of NHL experience. Tough to build from the draft picking unproven 18 year olds. However, I do believe you have to set a standard for what you look for in a player. Vegas built their original roster with criteria. Fast, with high hockey IQ. The Kraken copied that, along with BIG dmen. 

Lets hope Danny B has a plan and the leeway to stick with it.

[GrittyForever]

Kraken going to another game 7. They are a fun team to watch. We could do a lot worse than to follow their example. 

[tucson83]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:31 PM, flyer4ever said:

Only difference is the Kraken picked players in their late 20's with years of NHL experience. Tough to build from the draft picking unproven 18 year olds. However, I do believe you have to set a standard for what you look for in a player. Vegas built their original roster with criteria. Fast, with high hockey IQ. The Kraken copied that, along with BIG dmen. 

Lets hope Danny B has a plan and the leeway to stick with it.

i think this is the reason why danny said this is going to take time because we are against the cap, our goaltending is a question mark and depending on what's out there in fa in terms what players are out there that are reasonable, i think it's an accurate statement and i do believe this is way he wants to build this roster.

Edited May 14, 2023 by tucson83

[radoran]

39 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

our goaltending is a question mark

 

[flyercanuck]

16 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if he's just trolling us and laughing that we're actually taking him seriously.