Game 23: New Jersey Devils at Philadelphia Flyers; 11/30/23 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[RonJeremy]

9 hours ago, FD19372 said:

Well, they didn't get the win, but good character shown by the team to salvage a point.

That's all we want this season is to play hard, be in every game and lose a bunch of close ones.  We are competitive and no more 10 game losing streaks. With the proper trades and drafting ,once we get a real PP QB and shore up the offense and defense we will be a different team.

[Howie58]

This will get increasingly tough to watch for the reasons we've discussed. I suspect this squad is near the maximum effort. Yes, the youngins may improve. But the collective talent isn't there. The trade deadline may actually set us back depending on lost assets.

 

We desperately need a real first line. We are shortening Coots' career. He should be number 2. But I can't figure out that line with current staff.

[Lindbergh31]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Bingo. Picking 14th (yet again) isn't going to get Philly a cup. A Michkov isn't going to fall into our lap every year.

 

Yes it's nice to see a team that actually tries out there again, but they really need a total rebuild. And this is just trying to get back to 1st and 2nd round playoff losses. Wash/rinse/repeat.

As much as we want as fans for the Flyers to rebuild properly and keep losing games, the players themselves don't want that. Briere has to stay committed to trading players with expiring contracts at the deadline no matter where the Flyers are in the standings to get draft picks. We'll see if he does that.

[mojo1917]

I find it endlessly fascinating how we all view this team differently.

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable. The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

He's a little ****, but man he reminds me of Gretzky in the way, it always feels like he's going to score when he's on the ice. 

That gnat-**** has come a long way in his short time in the NHL, he's wickedly talented and now he's physically maturing. He's fun to watch.

 

I don't think tearing it all down is necessary.

Now that may mean there is a course correction in a few years because guys didn't work out in the way they were projected too...but ditching grown-ups for kids never ever is the answer if success is the ultimate goal. There needs to be some adults around to show the kids how to be pros.

Currently, I think there is a good mix of young guys and vets on the roster. We're seeing mostly depth guys competing their asses off and I appreciate it. 

The New York Rangers went from terrible to threatening in 3 years, I think the Flyers can maybe follow that model with some luck and savvy management and be a threat in 4 or 5, I feel like we are in year 2.

I dont' see where endless sucking makes anything better. So, when I see posts saying the team needs to keep being disassembled I feel I need to ask to what end? Buffalo, the Oil, the Yotes?

Those franchises keep on rebuilding and tearing down nothing to win nothing. I don't think those are the models to follow. 

 

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I find it endlessly fascinating how we all view this team differently.

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable. The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

He's a little ****, but man he reminds me of Gretzky in the way, it always feels like he's going to score when he's on the ice. 

That gnat-**** has come a long way in his short time in the NHL, he's wickedly talented and now he's physically maturing. He's fun to watch.

 

I don't think tearing it all down is necessary.

Now that may mean there is a course correction in a few years because guys didn't work out in the way they were projected too...but ditching grown-ups for kids never ever is the answer if success is the ultimate goal. There needs to be some adults around to show the kids how to be pros.

Currently, I think there is a good mix of young guys and vets on the roster. We're seeing mostly depth guys competing their asses off and I appreciate it. 

The New York Rangers went from terrible to threatening in 3 years, I think the Flyers can maybe follow that model with some luck and savvy management and be a threat in 4 or 5, I feel like we are in year 2.

I dont' see where endless sucking makes anything better. So, when I see posts saying the team needs to keep being disassembled I feel I need to ask to what end? Buffalo, the Oil, the Yotes?

Those franchises keep on rebuilding and tearing down nothing to win nothing. I don't think those are the models to follow. 

 

 

tanking fans dont seem to understand that having a whole team of youth is not going to get over the hump because of the fact they will make mistakes and cost us games, that's the reason why vegas never built the team with youth, they brought in mostly experienced players because they wont make mistakes and won more games. the only reason we have youth on this roster is because of our cap situation and that goes back to hextall's philosophy and fletch as well, we they just relyed so much on youth to fix this roster and it backfired on them especially after we lost our important vets which make this team much worse.

[SCFlyguy]

Is Fletcher still working on fixing the D or should we stop waiting for that @tucson83

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Is Fletcher still working on fixing the D or should we stop waiting for that @tucson83

if you going to complain, if you cant get patient and being negative everytime, then stop rooting for them. what's stopping you?

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by tucson83

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

tanking fans dont seem to understand that having a whole team of youth is not going to get over the hump because of the fact they will make mistakes and cost us games, that's the reason why vegas never built the team with youth, they brought in mostly experienced players because they wont make mistakes and won more games. the only reason we have youth on this roster is because of our cap situation and that goes back to hextall's philosophy and fletch as well, we they just relyed so much on youth to fix this roster and it backfired on them especially after we lost our important vets which make this team much worse.

 

 

You can't compare Vegas to any other team in NHL history. They weren't built the way every other team is. 

 

We've lost almost all Fletchers 'important' vets...Hayes is gone, Deangelo is gone, Ellis was never here, Ristolainen just started playing again, yet the team is WAY better. 

[flyercanuck]

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I find it endlessly fascinating how we all view this team differently.

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable. The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

He's a little ****, but man he reminds me of Gretzky in the way, it always feels like he's going to score when he's on the ice. 

That gnat-**** has come a long way in his short time in the NHL, he's wickedly talented and now he's physically maturing. He's fun to watch.

 

I don't think tearing it all down is necessary.

Now that may mean there is a course correction in a few years because guys didn't work out in the way they were projected too...but ditching grown-ups for kids never ever is the answer if success is the ultimate goal. There needs to be some adults around to show the kids how to be pros.

Currently, I think there is a good mix of young guys and vets on the roster. We're seeing mostly depth guys competing their asses off and I appreciate it. 

The New York Rangers went from terrible to threatening in 3 years, I think the Flyers can maybe follow that model with some luck and savvy management and be a threat in 4 or 5, I feel like we are in year 2.

I dont' see where endless sucking makes anything better. So, when I see posts saying the team needs to keep being disassembled I feel I need to ask to what end? Buffalo, the Oil, the Yotes?

Those franchises keep on rebuilding and tearing down nothing to win nothing. I don't think those are the models to follow. 

 

 

So how do we get those top end guys? Well Gauthier and Michkov should help add to that...where'd we get them? Top ten draft picks. 

The difference was Jack Hughes? Where'd the Devils get him? 1st overall. 

 

There hasn't been endless sucking...there's been endless mediocrity, with a bit of sucking sprinkled in. The team needs to keep being disassembled? When was it ever disassembled? Briere started to disassemble it...he never finished. Fletcher went for it every year. Hextall never tore it right down. Holmgren? LMAO!

 

Buffalo? Oilers? Yotes? How about Stanley Cup champions? Again, Vegas doesn't count because no other team is built like they were, though they had other teams top 5 picks as their best. ...Colorados best players were top 10 picks, including a 1st a 2nd and a 4th overall. Tampas included a 1st and a 2nd overall. Washingtons were a 1st and 4th overall. Pittsburghs were 2-1sts and a 2nd overall, Chicagos were 1st and 3rd overall....seems to be a pattern here.

 

I've seen enough of 1st and 2nd round exits, or oops, just missed the playoffs. I can't understand how everyone else hasn't.

 

Just once tear it right down...just once. 

 

Or, we can just keep saying how nice it would be if the Flyers could win just one more cup in our lifetime...like we have for the last half century.

[mojo1917]

30 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Colorados best players were top 10 picks, including a 1st a 2nd and a 4th overall. Tampas included a 1st and a 2nd overall. Washingtons were a 1st and 4th overall

How good were the Flyers 2nd overall picks again?

 

You're saying if the team is terrible but is terrible at just the right time, that's how championship teams are made?

 

Tell me that's not the whole premise.

Be bad, but hope to luck into selecting a great player as a consolation.

I mean, good luck with that

 

And let's be clear I'm not advocating going all in with this team.

They shouldn't be buying at the deadline.

But if they're in a playoff position, unless the offer is stupidly lopsided in the Flyers favor, trading a guy who is playing well sends a terrible message.

 

 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

49 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

How good were the Flyers 2nd overall picks again?

 

You're saying if the team is terrible but is terrible at just the right time, that's how championship teams are made?

 

Tell me that's not the whole premise.

Be bad, but hope to luck into selecting a great player as a consolation.

I mean, good luck with that

 

And let's be clear I'm not advocating going all in with this team.

They shouldn't be buying at the deadline.

But if they're in a playoff position, unless the offer is stupidly lopsided in the Flyers favor, trading a guy who is playing well sends a terrible message.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, we obviously had the luck of drafting 2nd in a terrible draft (JVR) and then terrible luck with health on Patrick. 

 

"You're saying if the team is terrible but is terrible at just the right time, that's how championship teams are made?" 

 

I'm saying pretty much every single champion has been built with at least 1 - 1st overall pick, and then some other high picks. You said it yourself, the difference maker in that game was Hughes. 1st overall Hughes. 

Of course you need the brains to build the winner as well, it isn't just one or two players. That's still a work in progress in Philly. But tell me championship teams aren't made by being terrible at the right time. Tell me the Pens still win without Crosby and Malkin, the Caps without Ovechkin, the Avs without MacKinnon and Makar, Tampa without Stamkos and Hedman, Chicago without Kane and Toews. 

 

I just think it's funny that most of this forum was on board with a total rebuild, were all sick and tired of "just make the playoffs and anything can happen" philosophy the Flyers management swore by for decades, and yet....here we are again. 

 

Am I happy to see the Flyers playing better than what Fletcher iced. Of course. But I want a champion, not just a YAY, 4 and out again! And you need a superstar or 2 for that.

 

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by flyercanuck

[GratefulFlyers]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I just think it's funny that most of this forum was on board with a total rebuild, were all sick and tired of "just make the playoffs and anything can happen" philosophy the Flyers management swore by for decades, and yet....here we are again. 

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “here we are again.” It seems to me Flyers’ fans and more importantly Jones/Briere/Tortorella are all clear-eyed and realistic about where the team is now. One glance at the PP most nights dispels all delusions of grandeur right away!
 

Tortorella’s got them all on the same page and there’s enough talent to compete with the best, pull off some big wins occasionally. There’s not enough talent to beat the best very often, certainly not enough to win PO rounds. I think everyone realizes that. What makes you say “here we are again?”

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

The Flyers have Michkov and Gauthier in the organization; a top 5 and let's be real a top 2 when we're talking talent in Michkov. Only because suck at the right time Chicago got the "generational " player.

 

My point about Hughes was he was the difference, but  soon the Flyers will have a couple of those kind of players shortly.

 

The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

 

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

 

Was what I said. Right after mentioning our young players like him.

 

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable

 

Seems like saying all that was lost because reiterated i think losing is for losers. 

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

@flyercanuck

The Flyers have Michkov and Gauthier in the organization; a top 5 and let's be real a top 2 when we're talking talent in Michkov. Only because suck at the right time Chicago got the "generational " player.

 

My point about Hughes was he was the difference, but  soon the Flyers will have a couple of those kind of players shortly.

 

The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

 

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

 

Was what I said. Right after mentioning our young players like him.

 

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable

 

Seems like saying all that was lost because reiterated i think losing is for losers. 

 

yes thank you, agree 100 percent and let's bring another team that has a ton of top 5 picks and havent gone anywhere which is the Edmonton oilers, it means nothing if you have top 5 players, you need depth, all cup teams have depth, like if crosby was that special why did take another 7 years for him to win another cup? the maple leafs hasnt won anything with two top 2 centers, it's like no one is looking at what do these cups teams have that these teams like superstars cant over the hump dont have?

 

heck the kings, bruins, blues, golden knights didnt have crosby and kane stars and still won cups. like we have to find other ways to win rather than relying on getting the first overall pick because i guarantee if we tank, we will never have a chance of making it into the playoffs. i would rather make the playoffs and add proven stars to get this team over the hump rather than to never make the playoff in 20 plus years all because tank obsessed fans want dynasty and that's impossible in a cap world because you will lose players, that's over and fans have to get over that mentality.

Edited December 2, 2023 by tucson83

[FD19372]

12 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

That's all we want this season is to play hard, be in every game and lose a bunch of close ones.  We are competitive and no more 10 game losing streaks. With the proper trades and drafting ,once we get a real PP QB and shore up the offense and defense we will be a different team.

This is very true. We need a power play QB. I also can't wait for the arrival of Michkov..whenever he can start playing. That kid has amazing skill.

[flyercanuck]

10 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I’m not sure what you mean by “here we are again.” It seems to me Flyers’ fans and more importantly Jones/Briere/Tortorella are all clear-eyed and realistic about where the team is now. One glance at the PP most nights dispels all delusions of grandeur right away!
 

Tortorella’s got them all on the same page and there’s enough talent to compete with the best, pull off some big wins occasionally. There’s not enough talent to beat the best very often, certainly not enough to win PO rounds. I think everyone realizes that. What makes you say “here we are again?”

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2023-12-01/league

 

 Here we sit in the middle of the pack, yet again. 

What happened to blowing it up and rebuilding? 

 

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

@flyercanuck

The Flyers have Michkov and Gauthier in the organization; a top 5 and let's be real a top 2 when we're talking talent in Michkov. Only because suck at the right time Chicago got the "generational " player.

 

My point about Hughes was he was the difference, but  soon the Flyers will have a couple of those kind of players shortly.

 

The Flyers out played the Devils with 11 forwards for most of and 10 forwards for some of that game.

 

The difference was literally Jack Hughes.

 

Was what I said. Right after mentioning our young players like him.

 

My take away from last night was, "geez a couple of high-end players and the Flyers whip that team's ass". 

 

Are Gauthier, Michkov and Bonk enough? that's debatable

 

Seems like saying all that was lost because reiterated i think losing is for losers. 

 

I think Michkov is going to be something. Gauthier looks like a good one. Yes, Chicago got the generational player sucking at the right time. Same way they got Kane and Toews. As did Pittsburgh. As did Colorado. Tampa.  

 

Who's our star centre? Who's our stud #1 defenceman? 

By the time Michkov and Gauthier are doing what we hope they can, Couturier, who's as close to a top line centre as we have (a poor mans top line centre at that) will be 33-34. Sanheim is a good defenceman (I was one of the very few on here who DIDN'T want to dump him for anything last year) but is he a #1 on a cup winner? Those are the type of players you need to win cups. We don't have them.  It's hard to find them drafting in the middle of the pack. That's my point. We're back to the middle of the pack. We forgot to get a #1 centre and dman. We need those to be legit. We're racing Ferraris and Lamborghinis in our Honda Accords. (I drive one and love it....it's not beating those other cars)

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2023-12-01/league

 

 Here we sit in the middle of the pack, yet again. 

What happened to blowing it up and rebuilding? 

 

 

Nope their is a snowballs chance in hell that they make the playoffs so it's good enough odds for them.

 

Torts wants to get this mediocre team into the playoffs so he can stroke his ego one more time before they put him out in the pasture ie. somewhere up high in the front office when he finally "steps down"

 

It's why I don't even watch or comment on these bums anymore.

 

I come mostly now just to chat about the Eagles.

 

Been an Eagles long before I even started watching hockey in the early 90's.

 

Fly Eagles Fly.

[flyercanuck]

33 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Nope their is a snowballs chance in hell that they make the playoffs so it's good enough odds for them.

 

Torts wants to get this mediocre team into the playoffs so he can stroke his ego one more time before they put him out in the pasture ie. somewhere up high in the front office when he finally "steps down"

 

It's why I don't even watch or comment on these bums anymore.

 

I come mostly now just to chat about the Eagles.

 

Been an Eagles long before I even started watching hockey in the early 90's.

 

Fly Eagles Fly.

 

Hey man, Tortsie won the cup 20 years ago, so he's obviously a great coach now.

 

Wonder if Vinnie LeCavalier is still a great #1 centre? We should try him just one more time. 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I think Michkov is going to be something. Gauthier looks like a good one. Yes, Chicago got the generational player sucking at the right time. Same way they got Kane and Toews. As did Pittsburgh. As did Colorado. Tampa.  

 

Who's our star centre? Who's our stud #1 defenceman? 

By the time Michkov and Gauthier are doing what we hope they can, Couturier, who's as close to a top line centre as we have (a poor mans top line centre at that) will be 33-34. Sanheim is a good defenceman (I was one of the very few on here who DIDN'T want to dump him for anything last year) but is he a #1 on a cup winner? Those are the type of players you need to win cups. We don't have them.  It's hard to find them drafting in the middle of the pack. That's my point. We're back to the middle of the pack. We forgot to get a #1 centre and dman. We need those to be legit. We're racing Ferraris and Lamborghinis in our Honda Accords. (I drive one and love it....it's not beating those other cars)

 

 

 

I see what you mean now. But where the Flyers sit in the standings is only tangentially related to the rebuild. In other words they're basically a .500 team but that doesn't mean it was Jones/Briere's intentions, to get the team back to mediocre. The team is .500 instead of .250. Why does that signify a failure of management to you? You say "we forgot to get...." as if the roster is a finished product. You must know it's not.

 

And if you're dreaming of the #1 overall by "tanking" I think that's a fool's errand. The bouncing balls give at best a 25% shot at picking first.

 

Don't you think Jones/Briere have accomplished a lot in the short year they've been in charge? We both noted recently that the roster is almost rid of the Fletcher flops. The Flyers have done some housecleaning, a mandatory first step in the rebuild.

 

The holes you mentioned will eventually have to be filled when the time comes...probably year 3 of the rebuild when Michkov (hopefully he makes it) and Gauthier are in the O&B.

 

So take a pill - smoke a smoke - have a drink - take a deep breath whatever . I promise you the Flyers are not done rebuilding.

[GratefulFlyers]

 

[mojo1917]

I dont' see where holding players accountable, setting a standard for effort and fitness is also not rebuilding.

The NHL team and organization as a whole were not "good". 

Players were not developing, guys were sleep-walking through large swaths of the season. 

This team in particular has really shown me just how bad the late-era Giroux teams were.   

I remember watching the Pens, Jackets and Bruins and admiring how they contested every inch of ice, and wished our guys would play the same way.  Well now the guys on this team are fighting for ice all 60 minutes. That's not nothing and if that wins games great.  When I listen to Tortarella he doesn't sound like the same guy who wanted to fight Larry Brooks,( not that that dude doesn't need an ass-whuppin'). There is no delusional thinking about what kind of team he's got here either.

I'm not going to fault him for wanting guys who bust their asses to succeed, in pro sports that means win.

I think he understands culture better than many people want to give him credit for.

I also think the culture of the whole organization was in the shitter for so long I didn't understand how bad/lethargic it had become.

 

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I dont' see where holding players accountable, setting a standard for effort and fitness is also not rebuilding.

The NHL team and organization as a whole were not "good". 

Players were not developing, guys were sleep-walking through large swaths of the season. 

This team in particular has really shown me just how bad the late-era Giroux teams were.   

I remember watching the Pens, Jackets and Bruins and admiring how they contested every inch of ice, and wished our guys would play the same way.  Well now the guys on this team are fighting for ice all 60 minutes. That's not nothing and if that wins games great.  When I listen to Tortarella he doesn't sound like the same guy who wanted to fight Larry Brooks,( not that that dude doesn't need an ass-whuppin'). There is no delusional thinking about what kind of team he's got here either.

I'm not going to fault him for wanting guys who bust their asses to succeed, in pro sports that means win.

I think he understands culture better than many people want to give him credit for.

I also think the culture of the whole organization was in the shitter for so long I didn't understand how bad/lethargic it had become.

 

heck look at the canucks, they dont have mcdavid on their roster, they are playing like a team, getting good goaltending because of that they are winning games because they are buying in and with the flyers there are still some bad players on this team, not surprising really, i have alot of confidence in torts in turning this team back into a contender. it's getting rid of the players that wont buy in.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Hey man, Tortsie won the cup 20 years ago, so he's obviously a great coach now.

 

Yep he is forever indebted to Jeremy Roenick breaking Rico's arm on a miss check back then.

 

If that defense wasn't so best up it should have been them vs the Flames.

 

 

Torts been all mouth ever since.

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I dont' see where holding players accountable, setting a standard for effort and fitness is also not rebuilding.

The NHL team and organization as a whole were not "good". 

Players were not developing, guys were sleep-walking through large swaths of the season. 

This team in particular has really shown me just how bad the late-era Giroux teams were.   

I remember watching the Pens, Jackets and Bruins and admiring how they contested every inch of ice, and wished our guys would play the same way.  Well now the guys on this team are fighting for ice all 60 minutes. That's not nothing and if that wins games great.  When I listen to Tortarella he doesn't sound like the same guy who wanted to fight Larry Brooks,( not that that dude doesn't need an ass-whuppin'). There is no delusional thinking about what kind of team he's got here either.

I'm not going to fault him for wanting guys who bust their asses to succeed, in pro sports that means win.

I think he understands culture better than many people want to give him credit for.

I also think the culture of the whole organization was in the shitter for so long I didn't understand how bad/lethargic it had become.

 

 

I agree with everything you said in this post.