Game 78: Philadelphia Flyers at Columbus Blue Jackets; 4/6/24 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

They should have moved out pretty much anyone who doesn't fit their projected window of contention. 

The assumption here is that they don’t do this. They kept X players for a playoff run, disregarding the rebuild. But we have no idea if they actually did this or not. Decades of watching an organization do this very thing can lead you to this logical conclusion. But why then trade arguably your best defenseman? That doesn’t fit the narrative 

 

personally I don’t think the market was there for the players the Flyers should have moved. And we know they overvalued Laughton, making him untradeable. In fact, it seems like he was the only player they willingly held onto for his value to the team. This does fit the narrative 

 

the Flyers hold no leverage. They don’t have veteran assets that are expendable and desired by other teams. No one really wants our junk. As it stands they are in a better position right now then they have been for many seasons.

 

i don’t really care if they make the playoffs or not. I just want to see them work hard and continue to improve in all areas, including the front office

[flyerdog]

my thoughts as well....the POs this year are a bonus as not many of us expected them to even be in contention....i hope for a few things for next season: 

 

1. Atkinson gone
2. Foerster doesn't pull a Farabee next year and disappear
3. York shows improvement, to where he becomes the D man they expected him to be when drafted, ( a solid #2?)

4. the Goalie situation stabilizes with a bonafide #1, i don't care if that it Errson, Fedotov, or Kolosov...as long as one of them is the undisputed champion

5. secure the backup G spot with a proven veteran, (Brian Elliot type)

6. Decide if Coots still has a place with the team, as of now he is not having the impact he should (+ injuries) 

7. What do you do with Frost and Brink? that needs to be answered
8. Get rid of Risto's contract (sounds like his playing days might possibly be over?)
9. Is Zamula an essential piece moving forward? Need more from him
10. Figure out what Torts has in mind going forward and if the FO is what he wants....better to do something sooner rather than later.

 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I want a rebuild, not a "well, we're sort of rebuilding but trying to make the playoffs"  which is what the Flyers are doing. 

 

They're only doing this if you start your clock in Jan. before Hart left. The way you characterize it it's like they set out in Sept to make the POs. But you know that's not true.

 

In mid-January it was clear the Flyers would make the POs. All they had to do was go .500 the rest of the way. But still Briere refused to make a PO run the priority at the TD. He traded away nothing of value besides a 4R pick IIRC.

 

So they find themselves the 3 seed at the TD what should they have done purposely miss the POs? Is that realistic? I understand you would've done things differently from the beginning but let's keep the record straight: they're trying to make the POs now because they have no choice. And it looks like they screwed it up anyway...

 

 

[ruxpin]

20 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

They're only doing this if you start your clock in Jan. before Hart left. The way you characterize it it's like they set out in Sept to make the POs. But you know that's not true.

 

In mid-January it was clear the Flyers would make the POs. All they had to do was go .500 the rest of the way. But still Briere refused to make a PO run the priority at the TD. He traded away nothing of value besides a 4R pick IIRC.

 

So they find themselves the 3 seed at the TD what should they have done purposely miss the POs? Is that realistic? I understand you would've done things differently from the beginning but let's keep the record straight: they're trying to make the POs now because they have no choice. And it looks like they screwed it up anyway...

 

 

 

So ultimately screwed up both short-term and long-term priorities.  

 

[The rest not specifically directed at you]

 

First of all, i find it extremely hard to believe that this front office had no idea what was going to happen with Hart.  I'm fact, I'll bet anything that the entire league did, which was exactly the ONLY reason Hart was even still a Flyer.

 

They came into the season saying rebuild. They could have folded at any time and said, "we said rebuild, and we meant it" and to hell with the myopic Facebook crowd and frankly some here. 

 

Because between here and the parent board(s) it is really exhausting the past at least 12-15 years having the same damn conversation over and over and over again and the same morons (names change over time) pretending "yeah, but this time, building the wall with applesauce is going to work. I'm a real fan, and I have faith."

 

To those people, one more time:  no, you're a ####ing moron and that's your #### in your hand, not your house key. You're never getting home that way. 

 

Please, people, learn to distinguish reality from horse crap.

[flyercanuck]

31 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

they're trying to make the POs now because they have no choice. And it looks like they screwed it up anyway...

 

You'd think, after several decades of this nonsense, it would be time to tear it all down and start fresh. 

 

But maybe THIS time it'll work. 

 

We all know it won't.

 

edit: apparently rux and I are on the same page at the exact same time! 

Edited April 7 by flyercanuck

[GratefulFlyers]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You'd think, after several decades of this nonsense, it would be time to tear it all down and start fresh. 

 

But maybe THIS time it'll work. 

 

We all know it won't.

 

but the point is it's not like other years. it's not "this again."

 

Sure you can interpret every trade and non-trade as service to the Gospel According to Holmgren but I just can't believe you don't see the difference. Here's the most obvious one: the current management has stated explicitly...time and time again "We're not mortgaging the future for a PO appearance" and "We are trying to build a team that can win the Cup, multiple Cups."

 

Never - not once in 40+ years of following the Flyers has anyone in management said these things. Ever. Of course you're entitled to think they'll never get there the way they're going. But their intention is clear and deserves some respect. Not blind loyalty or rose-colored glasses. Just a fair shake. Jones and Briere have been on the job a year I'm thrilled their goal is to build a champion. Now let's see if they can do it - is that too much to ask?

 

 

[flyercanuck]

7 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

but the point is it's not like other years. it's not "this again."

 

Sure you can interpret every trade and non-trade as service to the Gospel According to Holmgren but I just can't believe you don't see the difference. Here's the most obvious one: the current management has stated explicitly...time and time again "We're not mortgaging the future for a PO appearance" and "We are trying to build a team that can win the Cup, multiple Cups."

 

Never - not once in 40+ years of following the Flyers has anyone in management said these things. Ever. Of course you're entitled to think they'll never get there the way they're going. But their intention is clear and deserves some respect. Not blind loyalty or rose-colored glasses. Just a fair shake. Jones and Briere have been on the job a year I'm thrilled their goal is to build a champion. Now let's see if they can do it - is that too much to ask?

 

 

 

It's great that they say they want to build a champion. I don't think saying it gets any banners hanging, though I'm really starting to feel like I'm cheering for the Leafs during the Ballard years so what the heck. 

 

I've listed multiple times how almost every single cup winner over the last couple of decades has a 1st or 2nd overall, or both, or multiple...we currently have none. The direction the team is going tells me we won't be getting any. Drafting 15th and 31st isn't likely going to get us much star power. So when, I mean IF we ever get that far, and we're running the likes of Couturier and Frost (and I don't mean them specifically, just that calibre) and they're going up against the likes of prime Crosby/MacKinnon/Bedard on a team that also has a legit #1 defenceman while we have Drysdale (on IR) and York (good players, NOT #1 defencemen) who do you think will win those series? The teams that will rise to the top in a few years are adding blue chip talent, while we're adding Scott Laughtons (again, I like Laughton, he's just not a game breaker)

 

Quit f***ing around a do it right! That's all I want. And NOW is the time to do it. Not in 5 more years when, Hey Look, we're STILL almost a playoff team picking 15th overall! 

 

 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

First of all, i find it extremely hard to believe that this front office had no idea what was going to happen with Hart.  I'm fact, I'll bet anything that the entire league did, which was exactly the ONLY reason Hart was even still a Flyer.

Ok. Let’s says that true (I believe it), what were they supposed to do, cut him? Bench him? And if they do, how do you explain that?

 

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

They came into the season saying rebuild

What have they done that contradicts this?

 

the team was playing well and winning. No one saw that coming. Should Danny call down to Torts and say “knock it off”?

[ruxpin]

42 minutes ago, CoachX said:

What have they done that contradicts this?

 

Sigh. The question is what haven't they done.

 

Trade Seeler. No justifiable reason to keep him. 

 

Trade Laughton. I know this one is something you can get behind. 

 

Trade Atkinson. This one is harder, so maybe they tried. 

 

Trade Coots.  I suspect they tried because they didn't name him captain until after the deadline. I think. 

 

Trade Deslauliers  i know, limited no trade, but he has to submit a 20-team list.  You still have 2/3 of the league. Find a dance partner, Danny Jones.

 

Trade Garnet Hathaway why? Some idiot GM somewhere still believes he's a plus. Take advantage.  

 

What did they do that contradicts this? 

Erik Johnson in the moment, at the time, there was legitimately no reason outside of the marketing department in charge of manipulating the clinically brain dead fans among us that this was remotely a good idea let alone necessary. This was brain damage massaging the oxygen-deprived brain damaged imbeciles.

Edited April 7 by ruxpin

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

9 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Sigh. The question is what haven't they done.

 

Trade Seeler. No justifiable reason to keep him. 

 

Trade Laughton. I know this one is something you can get behind. 

 

Trade Atkinson. This one is harder, so maybe they tried. 

 

Trade Coots.  I suspect they tried because they didn't name him captain until after the deadline. I think. 

 

Trade Deslauliers  i know, limited no trade, but he has to submit a 20-team list.  You still have 2/3 of the league. Find a dance partner, Danny Jones.

 

Trade Garnet Hathaway why? Some idiot GM somewhere still believes he's a plus. Take advantage.  

 

What did they do that contradicts this? 

Erik Johnson in the moment, at the time, there was legitimately no reason outside of the marketing department in charge of manipulating the clinically brain dead fans among us that this was remotely a good idea let alone necessary. This was brain damage massaging the oxygen-deprived brain damaged imbeciles.

Trade all things!  

[ruxpin]

21 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

Trade all things!  

Their value will never be higher!

[mojo1917]

@ruxpin

How 'bout them Sixers?

 

Also, would trading all the things actually be helpful?

 

Who on your list has value beyond Laughton? 

Couturier's contract is untradeable.

Atkinson's is as well. 

Who is giving up anything for him? 

 

Likewise, what's a 6th round pick in the return for Nick D going to do to help- anything?

 

Seeler,  what were you realistically thinking he brings back in a trade? A 2nd? Probably a 3rd. His presence hurts nothing and blocks no one. 

 

I don't see these moves or lack there of, moving the needle for a rebuild in anyway that fixes the actual problem.

Which is no Pasta or Bread in the cupboards. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Erik Johnson in the moment, at the time, there was legitimately no reason outside of the marketing department in charge of manipulating the clinically brain dead fans among us that this was remotely a good idea let alone necessary. This was brain damage massaging the oxygen-deprived brain damaged imbeciles.

 

Who was going to play defense after the Seeler injury, the Walker trade, the Drysdale and Ristolainen injuries?

 

Who ? 

 

I wasn't wild about bringing that specific guy, but I understood the reasoning. They needed a body that could play defense in the NHL who didn't cost much. Johnson is not sticking around. 

 

 

My fan experience with total rebuilds has been horrible.

The Sixers and Orioles. 

I think if you want to wander the wilderness for 25 years, get rid of the guys that can play for picks.

 

It's played out in Camden Yards for 30 years and is playing out with the WFC's other tenant. 

 

**** losing 

[ruxpin]

 

15 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

**** losing

This is the part we agree on.   Your way has gotten exactly Jack since 2012, and I'd include we 2012 and go back to the lucky run in 2010.

 

I suggested no one that has any value for future. And i really don't care who played defense the rest of this season. Erik Johnson sure as hell hasn't.  I'll take the 4th rounder back.

 

And I'd be happy as hell for the 2nd or 3rd rounder for Seeler. What have we gotten from him to far for the extension? 

 

As for the others, I'll take addition by substraction and use the space for a talent signing. 

 

As for the sixers, they've made mistakes but they're been relevant.  The Orioles were relevant. The Flyers are a footnote.  They're in the video when other teams' milestones happen.

 

This will continue. And I'm completely done watching it.

 

Edited April 8 by ruxpin

[SCFlyguy]

5 hours ago, ruxpin said:

To those people, one more time:  no, you're a ####ing moron and that's your #### in your hand, not your house key. You're never getting home that way. 

 

Please, people, learn to distinguish reality from horse crap.

Some people are never going to learn apparently.

[SCFlyguy]

I've been saying this for at least three years.  Every year they don't tear it all down is delaying them tearing it all down by another year.  They are going to have to tear it all down to win anything, so they are just delaying the inevitable and accomplishing nothing in the meantime.

[GratefulFlyers]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I've listed multiple times how almost every single cup winner over the last couple of decades has a 1st or 2nd overall, or both, or multiple...we currently have none. The direction the team is going tells me we won't be getting any.

 

They can trade for them can't they? Never heard of a GM trading the overall 1st or 2nd but 3, 4 and 5 could be pried loose. Those picks would come dear; maybe it takes Konecny to land one. But Briere is no dummy; he's shown balls (Michkov), patience and creativity (Gauthier->Drysdale) in his rookie year. A deal like that is a long-shot to be sure but no more than stinking up the rink for ?-years hoping for top 5 picks.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Trade Laughton. I know this one is something you can get behind. 

 

Give me a 2nd and 4th this year and you can have him.

 

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Trade Atkinson. This one is harder, so maybe they tried. 

 

These are the only ones you have a shot of pulling off i'm afraid.

 

Pick up to half his salary just to move this guy for i would hope at least a 4th.

 

I run with that.

 

So at the draft i add a 2nd and 2 4ths to add to 2 1st and 2 2nds they already have.

 

Laughton's 2nd replaces the one traded.

 

Cam's 4th give them a 4th they traded back.

 

Anyways i love a 4th line of Cates Poehling and Hathaway.

 

 

[flyercanuck]

7 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

They can trade for them can't they? Never heard of a GM trading the overall 1st or 2nd but 3, 4 and 5 could be pried loose. Those picks would come dear; maybe it takes Konecny to land one. But Briere is no dummy; he's shown balls (Michkov), patience and creativity (Gauthier->Drysdale) in his rookie year. A deal like that is a long-shot to be sure but no more than stinking up the rink for ?-years hoping for top 5 picks.

 

Like you said, good luck getting a 1st or 2nd overall, unless it's a lousy draft and then that guy isn't putting you over the top anyway. It would take more than Konecny to land a 1st or 2nd overall in a good draft.

 

I'm not sure drafting Michkov took balls...it was a no brainer at 7th overall for maybe the 2nd best talent in the draft. I could see the Ducks and Jackets passing because of the "Russian factor" and the fact they were still getting great players in Carlsson and Fantillii, but SJ, Montreal and of course the Yotes are all going to regret not taking him. The Gauthier trade was forced on him to get something. Time will tell if it was a "good" trade, Drysdale health is clearly a concern, so is Gauthiers ego.

 

Stinking up the rink for ? years? What do you think they've been doing for decades? This used to be one of the great franchises in the NHL (see my sig at the bottom of the post) that most players would love to play for. Now we can't even keep our own draft picks. And that's on our wonderfully run (mis) management. Who are STILL employed! 

 

And now we've got another dinosaur coaching who will be soon be "advising" (hell he already is) on how to build the team with the Garnet Hathaways, Nic DesLauriers, Cam Atkinsons and Nic Seelers of the league, while other teams are rolling out McDavids (who clearly needs to learn how to play the game properly) Kucherovs and MacKinnons. 

 

We've been doing this "retool, never rebuild" for freakin' decades...I can't believe every Flyer fan on the planet isn't ready to do it the way that pretty much everyone else does. 

 

And yes you need good management to go with those high draft picks to make it work. But if you don't have good management, it sure isn't going to work the retool way.

 

The proof is in the Flyers half a f***ing century WITHOUT a cup!

 

 

[flyerrod]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

To those people, one more time:  no, you're a ####ing moron and that's your #### in your hand, not your house key. You're never getting home that way

Hey, I resemble that remark….and if it opens doors, it opens doors…

[GratefulFlyers]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

The proof is in the Flyers half a f***ing century WITHOUT a cup!

 

I know... Soon the Flyers won't even have their names on the Cup ... not sure exactly when but the Cup is almost full and the '70s winners are next...

 

I share a lot of your anger, negativity etc. about the Flyers' past but let's forget the past. What's happening now? I think they are trying something different now. Yes there's elements of rinse/repeat, certain trades and non-trades, but these must be balanced with management's publicly-stated goal of building a Cup champion - a first for the Flyers.

 

You can say "just words" but words matter. They create expectations and they're new - alien even - to this fan base. This is a huge change for the organization. No they didn't mail a letter asking for patience but they said as much in every presser since Briere took over.

 

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Stinking up the rink for ? years? What do you think they've been doing for decades?

 

Not stinking up the rink the way I meant. We know the Flyers' PO record but at least they have a PO record. Is it possible your negativity is blinding you a bit? You certainly can differentiate btw the bottom feeders and the Flyers. Like your evaluation of Tortorella. Every... single... reference... you make to him is negative. Man alive nobody is that wrong!

 

 

[mojo1917]

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

As for the sixers, they've made mistakes but they, The Orioles, The Flyers are all footnotes.

I fixed it for you.

Only in the last year have the Orioles been "good".

the Adam Jones/JJ Hardy/Chris Davis team wasn't a serious contender.

They were an oasis of competence during 25 years of failure and total unwatchability.

I HATE the feeling of knowing my team is irrelevant 3 weeks into a season.  You know how I know that feeling?

Someone thought it would be wise to "tear it down" and build it back up. 

 

The Sixers had one sniff of championship quality, then they picked Harris over Butler. 

One year where, people thought, maybe these guys could be something...even then that team wasn't really built through the draft, there were trades and signings. 

 

This draft in particular isn't the one to go full Blackhawk on either. 

 

It is my hope that now that the playoffs are out of reach, I don't have to watch any of Staal, Johnson or Atkinson for the remainder of 2024. Pull the plug for the remaining 6 games and see if the draft position can be improved.

That's as far as I'll go down the tanking path. 

Maybe there will be some ping pong ball luck and the Flyers can move from 14 to 4 or someshit.

Rooting for ping pong balls, yeah, have fun with that.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

I know... Soon the Flyers won't even have their names on the Cup ... not sure exactly when but the Cup is almost full and the '70s winners are next...

 

Pretty sad, innit? 

 

9 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

I share a lot of your anger, negativity etc. about the Flyers' past but let's forget the past. What's happening now? I think they are trying something different now. Yes there's elements of rinse/repeat, certain trades and non-trades, but these must be balanced with management's publicly-stated goal of building a Cup champion - a first for the Flyers.

 

You can say "just words" but words matter. They create expectations and they're new - alien even - to this fan base. This is a huge change for the organization. No they didn't mail a letter asking for patience but they said as much in every presser since Briere took over.

 

I think they are being slightly different. I just don't think slightly different is what they need...I think they need completely different.

 

 

9 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

 

Not stinking up the rink the way I meant. We know the Flyers' PO record but at least they have a PO record. Is it possible your negativity is blinding you a bit? You certainly can differentiate btw the bottom feeders and the Flyers. Like your evaluation of Tortorella. Every... single... reference... you make to him is negative. Man alive nobody is that wrong!

 

 

 

I know they aren't a bottom feeder, and have never said that. They're mediocre....perpetually mediocre. They're never a threat to win a cup, and they're never in a position to get the next superstar. 

 

I've never liked Tortorella and his drama queen act. I do think a team like the Maple Leafs for example could use him for a season or two to see if he could help them over that hump. That is NOT what a team that's supposed to be rebuilding needs. This season is a prime example....he squeezes everything out of the team until the playoffs are in sight, then everyones so exhausted from playing "playoff hockey" for 70 games, they're done. But the team is now too high up in the standings to get that star player that would actually help in the rebuild.. 

 

I just find it frustrating to watch this same episode go over and over and over....I don't know how some of you long time fans don't. I used to love watching playoffs that mattered. Now we're either not in them, barely, or we play one series and we're done. Maybe two once every 7 or 8 years. Pretty exciting times. We've played 18 rounds of playoffs in 20 years. That's certainly not stellar. It's not pathetic. It's mediocre.

 

 

[mojo1917]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I've never liked Tortorella and his drama queen act. I do think a team like the Maple Leafs for example could use him for a season or two to see if he could help them over that hump. That is NOT what a team that's supposed to be rebuilding needs. This season is a prime example....he squeezes everything out of the team until the playoffs are in sight, then everyones so exhausted from playing "playoff hockey" for 70 games, they're done. But the team is now too high up in the standings to get that star player that would actually help in the rebuild.. 

 

I just find it frustrating to watch this same episode go over and over and over....I don't know how some of you long time fans don't. I used to love watching playoffs that mattered. Now we're either not in them, barely, or we play one series and we're done. Maybe two once every 7 or 8 years. Pretty exciting times. We've played 18 rounds of playoffs in 20 years. That's certainly not stellar. It's not pathetic. It's mediocre.

 

this is not wrong.

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I HATE the feeling of knowing my team is irrelevant 3 weeks into a season.  You know how I know that feeling?

Someone thought it would be wise to "tear it down" and build it back up. 

 

In fairness, the O's simply don't have the money to compete on the big level. Ownership has said it.

 

The problem I have is essentially the same. Watching a franchise tread water for decades effectively makes every game more or less irrelevant.

 

Are the games fun? Sure, they can be. It's a great sport. If you want to be entertained, that's one thing.

 

Winning a Championship is different.

 

The Phillies were irrelevant for 30 years save a miracle run in 1993. When they got Star players like Hamels, Rollins, Utley, and Howard it meant they were able to compete on a different - relevant - level.

 

I mean no disrespect to our Wild posters on here when I compare us to them. Many of them say the same thing about their franchise.

 

I believe Briere Jones LLP when they say their goal is to win a championship. I'm just not confident - at this point - that they are effectively moving in that direction.

 

The unfortunate reality is that the damage done by the Fletcher regime in contracts and clauses continues to hamstring the organization. A top six center (14 - until he proves he can play again) and a top four D (55 - by contract) are two huge gaps on a salary cap.

 

The team played above itself for 70 games and then ran out of gas while other teams were ramping up their second gear.

 

Whocouldanode?

 

And the first real stretch of adversity comes as bottom feeders are motivated to play spoiler.

 

 

To your point, NOW is a good "tank" stretch. Dive down below Buffalo (like I am, under clouds, waiting for the clouds to darken this afternoon).