radoran Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 @JackStraw. Good point. Forgot about that one but I still don't think it happens all that often. I'll add to what @doom88 said with RIDICULOUS overpaymentHe had an off year (along with the rest of the 'Lanche) but Varmalov had a 2.59/.913 in 53 games last year as the primary starter (for $2.8M cap hit). He's a RFA right now as well. He had all of 59 NHL games (plus 19 playoffs) with none as a full season starter.Bernier's career stats are 2.36/.912 in 63 games.The first question is whether there is a market out there for a potential Bernier trade. There are apparently several interested franchises (I believe there were a few for Varlamov). Then the question is what lunatic NHL general managers* out there will pay in competition with each other. Varlamov garnered a first rounder.And Bernier is Canadian * apologies for the redundnacy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Why not offer sheet Varly at a max value representing a 2nd rd pick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 <br />Someone needs to remind me again of what Bernier has done in the NHL.<br />what has any prospect done in the NHL? what has any draftee done in the NHL? its the idea that someone has to have done something in the NHL that has killed the flyers at every position over the last 20 years.the bottom line, for those of us thinking a high price might be worth it for bernier, is that he has every indication of being an elite goaltender in the NHL. like, elite. not top 20 or 10, but top 3. maybe he doesn't get there, but he looks as likely to as anyone to come along since tukka rask. he is projected as a surer bet than rask was, actually.if you have the chance to add martin brodeur as a 25 yearold to your team, you do it. you spend a 1st round pick. and a roster player. again, he hasn't actually BECOME that, but if he does, the price goes from a 1st rounder and a roster player to half your friggin team. and again, there hasn't been anyone as likely to get there in a long time. having bernier squeezed behind quick and in a must-trade situation at this age is incredibly rare. let this chance go and you don't see it again for 20 years. imo, bernier is more likely to develop (quickly) into a worldbeater than mason is likely to keep his head on straight through adversity and regain his rookie form permanently. bernier is worth a high price. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 @aziz Once again, you make some awesome points to suppport your side of the arguement. In many ways, Bernier reminds me of Bob, super quick, good solid positioning and outstanding athleticism. If Bob was offered in a trade right now, you would be paying out the nose to acquire his services. Yet there he went for a 2nd rounder last year, as he had not yet been a starter and shown what he can do. In a lot of ways, the Bob situation last year reminds me a lot of the Bernier scenario this year. You are right, there are certain guys that you have to get in front of, to avoid paying full price once they are established. To me, it all comes down to trusting your scouts, that's why they make the big bucks. Just my thoughts, but I'm still concerned about Bernier being bombarded by Lavi's run and gun style. Our d is just not as mobile or smart as the crew Bernier is leaving. That makes the risk a bit higher from a Flyers persective, but should not preclude them from entering the fray. All the scouts who have been drooling over this kid for years can't be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Why not offer sheet Varly at a max value representing a 2nd rd pick?That is an option. Next summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeZel25 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 what has any prospect done in the NHL? what has any draftee done in the NHL? its the idea that someone has to have done something in the NHL that has killed the flyers at every position over the last 20 years.the bottom line, for those of us thinking a high price might be worth it for bernier, is that he has every indication of being an elite goaltender in the NHL. like, elite. not top 20 or 10, but top 3. maybe he doesn't get there, but he looks as likely to as anyone to come along since tukka rask. he is projected as a surer bet than rask was, actually.if you have the chance to add martin brodeur as a 25 yearold to your team, you do it. you spend a 1st round pick. and a roster player. again, he hasn't actually BECOME that, but if he does, the price goes from a 1st rounder and a roster player to half your friggin team. and again, there hasn't been anyone as likely to get there in a long time. having bernier squeezed behind quick and in a must-trade situation at this age is incredibly rare. let this chance go and you don't see it again for 20 years. imo, bernier is more likely to develop (quickly) into a worldbeater than mason is likely to keep his head on straight through adversity and regain his rookie form permanently. bernier is worth a high price.Don't agree, but that's just my opinion. I'm not giving Couturier or Schenn or swapping 1st rounders for Bernier. Bernier is a risk no matter what anyone tells me and so is Mason. I'm not willing to give up a talented, yet unproven player, for another unproven player in goal. Bernier couldn't win a starting job with a far better D than we have ,what's he gonna do here? That scares me. I'd go after him but not at the expense of a Couturier or Schenn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I strongly agree with @aziz . Bernier is worth more than Schenn or Couturier. It's just easier to find top six forwards than elite goalies. IF Bernier lives up to expectations, he will be an extremely valuable asset. If Schenn or Couturier become all stars... They'll still be on the ice 1/3 of the time Bernier will. Simple formula for value... Who does everyone feel was the primary reason LA won last year? The Devils have has their years of success? Who makes the Rangers truly dangerous? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If the asking price is Couturier, I'd counter with Laughton or Cousins, LAs choice. If Bernier really is supposed to be "the" goalie, I guess I'd be okay with overpaying a little. If Couturier is a requirement though, LA better throw something useful in. Couturier for Bernier straight up seems really high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Latest rumors on twitter say that the Flyers are now the favorite to land Bernier and Couts is not included in he offer. Looks to be Read and a pick likely. Sounds reasonable. I can't imagine LA fielding offers a whole lot better than that for a back up goalie that they have to trade in two weeks. Edited June 23, 2013 by Phillygrump 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 @D_LEED: There it is. Per @FriedgeHNIC: The Flyers are considered favorites to land Jonathan Bernier. They won't give up Couturier for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I strongly agree with @aziz . Bernier is worth more than Schenn or Couturier. It's just easier to find top six forwards than elite goalies. IF Bernier lives up to expectations, he will be an extremely valuable asset. If Schenn or Couturier become all stars... They'll still be on the ice 1/3 of the time Bernier will. Simple formula for value... Who does everyone feel was the primary reason LA won last year? The Devils have has their years of success? Who makes the Rangers truly dangerous? But Bernier isn't Quick, Brodeur or Lundquist. He's a backup who's basically played ONE season over his career. Varlamov got a first, and most people thought the Avalanche were insane. Patrick Roy in his prime along with Keane brought Thibault, Ruzinsky and Kovalenko. I wouldn't trade Schenn of Couturier for them in their prime. Dominic Hasek was traded for Stephan Beauregard and again for Kozlov and a 1st. These are the cream of the crop. The Sens traded Ben Bishop, a backup who looked like he could be a starter, for Cory Conacher and a 4th. Goalies, for whatever reason, just don't bring their value in return most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 what has any prospect done in the NHL? what has any draftee done in the NHL? its the idea that someone has to have done something in the NHL that has killed the flyers at every position over the last 20 years.the bottom line, for those of us thinking a high price might be worth it for bernier, is that he has every indication of being an elite goaltender in the NHL. like, elite. not top 20 or 10, but top 3. maybe he doesn't get there, but he looks as likely to as anyone to come along since tukka rask. he is projected as a surer bet than rask was, actually.if you have the chance to add martin brodeur as a 25 yearold to your team, you do it. you spend a 1st round pick. and a roster player. again, he hasn't actually BECOME that, but if he does, the price goes from a 1st rounder and a roster player to half your friggin team. and again, there hasn't been anyone as likely to get there in a long time. having bernier squeezed behind quick and in a must-trade situation at this age is incredibly rare. let this chance go and you don't see it again for 20 years. imo, bernier is more likely to develop (quickly) into a worldbeater than mason is likely to keep his head on straight through adversity and regain his rookie form permanently. bernier is worth a high price.Thank you.Homer needs to get this done. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 @aziz Once again, you make some awesome points to suppport your side of the arguement. In many ways, Bernier reminds me of Bob, super quick, good solid positioning and outstanding athleticism. If Bob was offered in a trade right now, you would be paying out the nose to acquire his services. Yet there he went for a 2nd rounder last year, as he had not yet been a starter and shown what he can do. In a lot of ways, the Bob situation last year reminds me a lot of the Bernier scenario this year. You are right, there are certain guys that you have to get in front of, to avoid paying full price once they are established. To me, it all comes down to trusting your scouts, that's why they make the big bucks.Just my thoughts, but I'm still concerned about Bernier being bombarded by Lavi's run and gun style. Our d is just not as mobile or smart as the crew Bernier is leaving. That makes the risk a bit higher from a Flyers persective, but should not preclude them from entering the fray. All the scouts who have been drooling over this kid for years can't be wrong.Think long-term.Bernier would be here way longer than Lavy.And with Lavy's system, the best goalie is the best defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Think long-term.Bernier would be here way longer than Lavy.And with Lavy's system, the best goalie is the best defense.Lavy is the second longest tenured Flyers coach, but has had how many goalies now? I'm not going anywhere near a guarantee for a goalies length of stay in Philly, unless they win the Vezina, Conn Smythe, or Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimKerrFan12 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I would really hate to lose our 11th overall pick because we do need to add a young forward or defense prospect as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I agree that Bernier could have incredible value as a startin goalie in the NHL but the point here is there is a lack of leverage by the Kings. He has little value to them right now but is being shopped as if he has high value. Everyone biddin for his services knows they have to move him and thy have to do so before July 5th or someone will just sign him and steal him away for a 2nd round pick. LA needs to take what they can get even if there is a bidding war there is a ceiling to that bidding and no one is going to overpay that much for a back up that has to be moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 what is so special about bernier anyway? i mean no one is giving a reasonable response on why he will be a good goalie. is it all because he won a cup and plays behind quick even though he didnt play? i mean there's nothing about him that he will succeed and give us a cup like stats/experience. if i want to replace bryz, i would want to replace him with proven goalie that has experience to handle the number 1 spot. for we all know mason and bernier could be michael leighton clones, then this team has no direction next season with their goaltending unless a really good number 1 goalie from another team is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 but the point here is there is a lack of leverage by the Kings.It's why they are creating some with all the stories(i'm sure some are made up) of other teams being lineup for his services so they can drive the price up...it's about all they can do......and Lombardi knows Homers dumb ass has already fell for it once with Bryz why not again...he figures if Bryz can fleece the Flyers out of 50 million he can at least get a 1st rounder for him.He figures that Homer didn't check to see if anyone was really interested in Bryz before his ridiculous offer, so he is going to try again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 <br />But Bernier isn't Quick, Brodeur or Lundquist. He's a backup who's basically played ONE season over his career.<br />he hasn't had the opportunity, yet. to the extent prospect scouting and eyeballs evaluation is at all reliable, he is projected higher than both quick and lundqvist at the same point in their careers. on par with brodeur.i'm generally very sour on scouting of prospect goalies, but not in this case. he has maintained his projected quality for 7 years from draft day, and to watch him, has all the tools to do a lot. he hasn't flamed out the way a lot of junior goalies do, and he just *looks* like a high high end goalie.yes, he's played ONE season, but there is more to look at than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 <br />if i want to replace bryz, i would want to replace him with proven goalie that has experience to handle the number 1 spot. for we all know mason and bernier could be michael leighton clones, then this team has no direction next season with their goaltending unless a really good number 1 goalie from another team is available.<br />what is your obsession with other teams' cast off has-beens? the only time high end established starting goalies are available are on the downslope of their careers. you will never get a 27 top-5 goalie from someone else.there are the occasional strange situations where loungo is moved from florida or Nabokov gets snagged on waivers, but go ahead and hold your breath on that happening.as for what bernier has done, you need to do two things to understand. 1, you need to look at scouting information on him. 2, you need to watch him play. ok, I lied, you need three things. the 3rd is you have to have some clue as to what you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 he hasn't had the opportunity, yet. to the extent prospect scouting and eyeballs evaluation is at all reliable, he is projected higher than both quick and lundqvist at the same point in their careers. on par with brodeur.i'm generally very sour on scouting of prospect goalies, but not in this case. he has maintained his projected quality for 7 years from draft day, and to watch him, has all the tools to do a lot. he hasn't flamed out the way a lot of junior goalies do, and he just *looks* like a high high end goalie.yes, he's played ONE season, but there is more to look at than that.if this team has a really good goaltending coach and a great defense, i say ok bring in bernier but they are both major question marks. this team is terrible in development with goalies if you think bringing two unproven goalies is going to fix that, then you got a major problem coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Bernier won't cost the Flyers anything. He was traded to the Leafs for Matt Frattin, goaltender Ben Scrivens and Toronto's second round pick in either the 2014 or 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 what is your obsession with other teams' cast off has-beens? the only time high end established starting goalies are available are on the downslope of their careers. you will never get a 27 top-5 goalie from someone else.there are the occasional strange situations where loungo is moved from florida or Nabokov gets snagged on waivers, but go ahead and hold your breath on that happening.as for what bernier has done, you need to do two things to understand. 1, you need to look at scouting information on him. 2, you need to watch him play. ok, I lied, you need three things. the 3rd is you have to have some clue as to what you are talking about.because at least i know what im getting from a proven goalie, you are just obsessed with youth and dont care about what the goalie can do as long it's a young goalie, scouting info doesnt mean jack, if this team cant develop goalies then it's problem waiting to happen, you dont seem to care about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 THIS THREAD IS DEAD!!! NOTHING TO SEE HERE!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 No matter now.. Bernier just went to the Leafs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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