Roenick on Mason, Flyers

[Polaris922]

I'm not. But don't mistake 5 sub-.900 save percentage playoff performances as 2 poor ones. The first one the Pens may not have been a contender. But the 4 following the cup win (which was the .905 year and hardly good numbers either) when they were one of the favorites are really when Fleury solidified his status in the Dept. of Goats.

I think the difference for me is having watched all of those seasons games and knowing how badly the team played in front of him. Average GAA all but those two seasons with a team that's more than struggled in front of him. The number of odd man breaks and power plays the team has surrendered has greatly damaged the statistics for Fleury. And the injury list during at least two of those four tears was extensive. this past season was a better reflection of standard Fleury. Again I'm not a supporter of his, but to say Mason is a better goaltender is a stretch to me. He may yet be, but the regular season stats he's actually a little behind. And I'd like more than one well rested playoff series to judge his postseason success by.

The only argument anyone can reasonably have in my eyes is he costs less per season, but to me that's offset by Fleury's contract being up after this season.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Polaris922

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 I'm not saying Mason is better. The guys played ONE season in Philly. I'm just pointing out Fleurys playoff performances are a lot more ugh than wow.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Won't disagree Mason MAY be moving in the right direction where Fleury has just now recovered from two abysmal postseasons, but I'm sorry, I'm not judging what MAY happen. I'm judging what they did last season and where their stats show them to be. They're both very middle of the pack mediocre. Neither stands out above the other in any significant way to me.

And if anything I have a DEFLATED sense of Fleury these past few years.

@flyercanuck

Don't Mistake my comments as saying Fleury is great. Hes got more wins over the past five seasons than any other goalie, and i still think hes average. Just understand that I'm saying Mason is no better yet. He may prove otherwise if he sharpens his skills, but not yet.

@

Sorry bud just gonna have to agree to disagree.

I just don't see the little cap difference to be off setting when this is the last year of his contract. It should be make or break time for Fleury.

ill admit, my sample size on Mason is small. I just saw him make saves that Niemi would not have and give his team a fighting chance and to hell with stats. Niemi usually has good stats, but I think he is garbage and the team plays scared in front of him. He is one of the sharks that makes me stand up and yell at the TV.

 

Stats do not mean a whole lot to me. Quick's stats this past playoff run has people questioning him and claiming he is a product of the team in front of him, but while he has his share of terrible games that brought his stats down, he made saves and robberies that made me want to beat my head into the table crying too. He just came up huge at some of the right moments and made saves niemi could never make and it electrified the team in front of him while demoralizing the opposing team. God I hate him

 

Fleury of course, is Niemi 2.0 to me. Crosby being a hometown boy and all, the pens games are always on. Fleury just seems to have awful games when I see him on the tube. it's nothing personal. He just does not instill confidence that he will make routine saves. Oh he has lights out awesome games sometimes, but he has total flops just as often. The 4 goals in like 15 shots against Montreal to be eliminated back in 2010, the 3 straight losses to Tampa the next season, dropping the series. Nearly being swept by philly the next year, only to come back and win 2, then have a very bad game 6. Being replaced in the playoffs completely the next year due to really bad games. Being up 3-1 then dropping the last 3 this year?

 

Time for a change

[aziz]

[mason] may yet be, but the regular season stats he's actually a little behind.

And there it is, really, right? I hate the penguins and wish them the worst, but I have fleury on a keeper team, and there aren't many better than him in the regular season. Same could be said of the entire penguins team, really : amazing things for 82 games, followed by horrific playoffs. I'm keeping fleury next season.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  You can slice it and dice it up any way you wish, but if don't think the Pens would not deal Fleury for Mason straight up, you are delusional.

[radoran]

@Polaris922  You can slice it and dice it up any way you wish, but if (you?) don't think the Pens would not deal Fleury for Mason straight up, you are delusional.

 

Allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll righty then!  

[ruxpin]

@Polaris922 You can slice it and dice it up any way you wish, but if don't think the Pens would not deal Fleury for Mason straight up, you are delusional.

Really? You're taking respective salaries into that, I suspect. If to cut cap costs I guess so.

But if money, etc. were equal and I'm the Pens I don't do that straight up.

I don't know what Mason is yet. I know that Fleury gets me through the regular season in pretty good shape. I know he's been a flake in the playoffs but so has the entire team, really. The flake maker was fired.

If I'm Pittsburgh, money aside, I'd stay with Fleury.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  The eye test tells me Mason is a better goalie than Fleury....factor in the age difference and you have all sides leaning towards Mase. I get what you are saying, Mason is an unproven commodity in this league, but I really do think it's only a matter of time until Mason proves to be a star goalie. Fleury has had to many meltdowns for my liking, you just can't trust the guy. I'd go with Mason and his youth over a guy who has not cut the mustard in 4 of his last 5 playoff years.

[ruxpin]

@jammer2

No offense to the Pens fans but the same argument could be made for the entire Pens team.

I really believe that's largely on the coach that is now gone. So long as their new GM doesn't completely screw up their team, you should see improved results.

That said, ordinarily I would agree to go with the younger goalie for the reasons you state.

I just honestly don't trust what I'm seeing do far. I'm just waiting for the wheels to come off. Odd year coach, even year goalie.

[mojo1917]

I'm just waiting for the wheels to come off. Odd year coach, even year goalie

 

you know I never quite know how to take that... is this the '15 season or the '14 season... as a result, i've been hating them both fairly regularly but can't help the feeling i'm misplacing valuable hatred that could be used for the Rangers or Devils...

[ruxpin]

you know I never quite know how to take that... is this the '15 season or the '14 season... as a result, i've been hating them both fairly regularly but can't help the feeling i'm misplacing valuable hatred that could be used for the Rangers or Devils...

LOL! It's whichever one makes the quote work.

[Polaris922]

@jammer2

Until Mason proves he can win a playoff series I don't see him as an upgrade at all. Fleury has outperformed him in the regular season and you still need a ticket to get to the dance. I agree Mason is young and if he continues to improve I'll change my opinion, but until then, this is all ridiculous home team favor.

I understand the $1.5 mill cap difference but that's the difference between a fourth and third liner these days. And I like the idea that if Fleury stinks this coming season his contract is done. Free market.

My point remains they're two mediocre goalies very much on par with one another till you add all the pros and cons. I wouldn't trade one for the other. The difference really isn't worth the paperwork.

Fleury better in regular season.

Mason unknown quantity in postseason (but I'd take that over Fleury's recent history.)

Mason saves $1.6 million (but signed three years so he needs to prove himself.)

Fleury is more expensive (but for one season then you can be done if he fails.)

Score tied at 2... Equal. *shrugs* believe in your goalie with high hopes for the future, that's great. But if I'm a GM I'm basing a trade on what I know, not what "might" be.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  The problem with having Fleury from a Pen's perspective is it's really hard to count on him in a playoff scenario.....but yet, every year they use him, it's another year taken off of Crosby's and Malkin's prime. The Pen's only have a limited window here, they are limited to the point that Malkin and Sid fall out of their primes. So, in effect....each year the inconsistent Fleury is utilized in the playoofs, another year ticks off the clock of your stars prime....they just can't afford to give away any more. If Rutherford was smart, he would someone else to handle the playoff duties. It's tough, cause you would be cutting off a kid like Tristan Jerry, or another fine prospect from moving up the ladder. Maybe you can get an upgrade that does not commit multiple years of commitment, although that would be kinda hard to pull off.

[ruxpin]

@jammer2

Here's the thing about ticking years off of Malkin and Crosby: they've done very similarly themselves in the playoffs.

You ("one," not you specifically) can cite specific series where one or the other has played well but overall they just haven't gotten it done. Even with Vokoun in net.

So I don't put everything on Fleury (acknowledging that he has been far from great in the playoffs).

If the defense played well and Crosby / Malkin played in the playoffs as they do in the regular season, Fleury isn't wasting anything.

I am really suspicious of the job Bylsma did and am interested in seeing what a new coach does (although I'm really not sure they have the right one - - enter the wasting concept).

If Fleury does screw the pooch next year, his contact is up and move on.

I just don't do that deal given the possibility something was wrong other than the goalie and given the fact it's a contract year and you can just not resign if he doesn't work out.

If Sid and Ginny don't want to be wasted, they have to do a little more than they've done in recent playoffs and they need a coach that can game plan and adjust.

I just would not do that deal much as I like Mason and much as I'm suspicious of Fleury.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Agreed, both Malkin and Sid have been less than stellar themselves. Momentum is a funny thing in hockey, a few key saves here and there and players respond, feeding off the positive nature of a guy standing on his head in the nets. Of course, if a goalie is letting in back breaking momentum killers, the offense is more often than not sub par. Not laying all the blame at Fleury's feet, just pointing out he has been a momentum killer for many series these past few years. The two factors (goalies and forwards scoring points) should not be interlaced, but the fact of the matter is they are....I'm sure there is a statistical co-relation between the two.

[Polaris922]

@ruxpin Agreed, both Malkin and Sid have been less than stellar themselves. Momentum is a funny thing in hockey, a few key saves here and there and players respond, feeding off the positive nature of a guy standing on his head in the nets. Of course, if a goalie is letting in back breaking momentum killers, the offense is more often than not sub par. Not laying all the blame at Fleury's feet, just pointing out he has been a momentum killer for many series these past few years. The two factors (goalies and forwards scoring points) should not be interlaced, but the fact of the matter is they are....I'm sure there is a statistical co-relation between the two.

I put a lot of the team's struggles on Bylsma to be honest. We've talked ad nauseam about Bylsma's failings in the playoffs. I'm excited to see what a new mentality does for the talent on this team.

[ruxpin]

I put a lot of the team's struggles on Bylsma to be honest. We've talked ad nauseam about Bylsma's failings in the playoffs. I'm excited to see what a new mentality does for the talent on this team.

I'm with you on the Bylsma thing. Then again, I'm a Philly fan so if it's not the goalie, it HAS to be the coach.

I do think there's something to it in this case, though.

Did Pitt clean out the entire coaching staff? New goaltending coach?

I just wouldn't be surprised to find out their playoffs were something Bylsma was doing. Fleury included.

[Polaris922]

I'm with you on the Bylsma thing. Then again, I'm a Philly fan so if it's not the goalie, it HAS to be the coach.

I do think there's something to it in this case, though.

Did Pitt clean out the entire coaching staff? New goaltending coach?

I just wouldn't be surprised to find out their playoffs were something Bylsma was doing. Fleury included.

 

They kept Jacques Martin and the goaltending coach they just started last season Mike Bales.  Bales I think was being rewarded for helping Fleury get past his playoff disaster stage.  Fleury had a 2.4 GAA and his best save % (.915) in a few seasons.  So I think they figured Bales had been helpful.  

[doom88]

They kept Jacques Martin and the goaltending coach they just started last season Mike Bales. Bales I think was being rewarded for helping Fleury get past his playoff disaster stage. Fleury had a 2.4 GAA and his best save % (.915) in a few seasons. So I think they figured Bales had been helpful.

That's a pretty reasonable approach.

[murraycraven]

@jammer2

Until Mason proves he can win a playoff series I don't see him as an upgrade at all. Fleury has outperformed him in the regular season and you still need a ticket to get to the dance. I agree Mason is young and if he continues to improve I'll change my opinion, but until then, this is all ridiculous home team favor.

I understand the $1.5 mill cap difference but that's the difference between a fourth and third liner these days. And I like the idea that if Fleury stinks this coming season his contract is done. Free market.

My point remains they're two mediocre goalies very much on par with one another till you add all the pros and cons. I wouldn't trade one for the other. The difference really isn't worth the paperwork.

Fleury better in regular season.

Mason unknown quantity in postseason (but I'd take that over Fleury's recent history.)

Mason saves $1.6 million (but signed three years so he needs to prove himself.)

Fleury is more expensive (but for one season then you can be done if he fails.)

Score tied at 2... Equal. *shrugs* believe in your goalie with high hopes for the future, that's great. But if I'm a GM I'm basing a trade on what I know, not what "might" be.

 

 

well said and I would agree on all points...   I think Mason has great upside and I do believe in the end he will be a better goalie than Flower.  But, right now I think it is a wash and the fact remains Mason only just found his footing when dealt to Philly.   Flower also has a circular thing that goes around a finger...  

[King Knut]

Not a chance in hell they wouldn't unload fleury and upgrade if they could and Mason is an upgrade no two ways about it.

If you just looked at stats, I could see how ou'd think otherwise, but watching the two play at this point, there's no comparison.

Mason is just sharper and more alert and aware of his surroundings and back on his feet and in position way way faster right now.

Really? You're taking respective salaries into that, I suspect. If to cut cap costs I guess so.

But if money, etc. were equal and I'm the Pens I don't do that straight up.

I don't know what Mason is yet. I know that Fleury gets me through the regular season in pretty good shape. I know he's been a flake in the playoffs but so has the entire team, really. The flake maker was fired.

If I'm Pittsburgh, money aside, I'd stay with Fleury.

[King Knut]

I'm curious about the new coach and what effect that'll have.

Is this team capable of playing a different system?

Honestly, these penguins started to shine less as soon as their third period goadings started working less. When they stopped getting the friendly calls on the dives and the holding of sticks stopped turning into hooking penalties, the penguins luck in the playoffs and in bigger games started to fall apart.

It was part of their coaching to get them power plays in games they weren't winning on their own merits.

Honestly, I don't think we have any clue if thAt team can play a system.

@jammer2

No offense to the Pens fans but the same argument could be made for the entire Pens team.

I really believe that's largely on the coach that is now gone. So long as their new GM doesn't completely screw up their team, you should see improved results.

That said, ordinarily I would agree to go with the younger goalie for the reasons you state.

I just honestly don't trust what I'm seeing do far. I'm just waiting for the wheels to come off. Odd year coach, even year goalie.

[Polaris922]

I'm curious about the new coach and what effect that'll have.

Is this team capable of playing a different system?

Honestly, these penguins started to shine less as soon as their third period goadings started working less. When they stopped getting the friendly calls on the dives and the holding of sticks stopped turning into hooking penalties, the penguins luck in the playoffs and in bigger games started to fall apart.

It was part of their coaching to get them power plays in games they weren't winning on their own merits.

Honestly, I don't think we have any clue if thAt team can play a system.

By these last two posts I can tell you don't watch them much at all, and you've chosen to ignore the points made that show the pros and cons I argue make them equal in value.

As for the reason the Pens have had playoff struggles, you clearly haven't watched them there either. I think your bias against them clouds your lenses quite heavily. You should set aside the routine Flyers fan mentality (the Pens dive, the Pens whine, the Pens cheat, the Pens are favorites, the Pens sacrifice first born children) and just watch the hockey they play. Their failure had nothing to do with not getting calls or similar melon head thinking.

It will be interesting what a very offensive minded coach brings back to the team. Bylsma started that way and they were a dominant offensive juggernaut. His philosophy shifted and the success went with it. So now that he's gone this could create some very fast paced wide open hockey.

[King Knut]

I was talking about the new coaches.  Fleury and Mason are not equal.  Not even close.  We're just not going to agree on that, I've accepted that you won't see what I believe is the more realistic point of view and I've moved on.  There's no use in us debating that anymore because you're not going to change my mind about Mason v Fleury any more than I'm going to change yours.

 

Moving on though, 

 

You're right, their failure has nothing to do with not getting calls, their failure has to do with not playing a system that complements what's been happening in the league lately.  My position is that their success had a great deal to do with getting those calls.

 

And yes I watched them do it against a great many teams besides the Flyers.  Dude, I'm sorry if it's not the kind of thing you want to hear and I don't really care because it's all in the past, but it's not just Flyer fans who said this.  It's been in the press, plenty of commentators and written on it.  Crosby has fallen out of favor and the league's officiating body in general got sick of being made to look foolish.  There was an initiative in the last two seasons (very open) to call more dives and it was in direct reaction to the league wide negative opinion of how refs tended to handle the Penguins specifically.  Now as a result they're calling more dives on EVERYONE including the Flyers which personally I think is a very very good thing.

 

Don't believe me?  Google it.  It's real.

 

I know it's hard to accept because it was accompanied by so much success, but this sort of crap was built into Bylsma's game plan since he took over halfway through the season in '09.

 

Personally I thought it was smart as **** to lean on the "new nhl" rules that had been so ballyhooed post lockout, but as a non penguins fan I did get frustrated and found it to be more than a little insulting to the integrity of the game.  Felt more like FIFA out there than the NHL.

 

Thankfully with the unsportsmanlike initiatives in place and the press that diving and faking calls has been getting in the last two years, it should continue to be more of a thing of the past.  Hopefully.

 

Anyway it does seem like we agree that we're both curious what the new coach does with the team.  Especially with all the new faces... and the absence of some of the old ones that I personally won't mind not seeing as much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote name='Polaris922' timestamp='1406147970' post='192234']

By these last two posts I can tell you don't watch them much at all, and you've chosen to ignore the points made that show the pros and cons I argue make them equal in value.

As for the reason the Pens have had playoff struggles, you clearly haven't watched them there either. I think your bias against them clouds your lenses quite heavily. You should set aside the routine Flyers fan mentality (the Pens dive, the Pens whine, the Pens cheat, the Pens are favorites, the Pens sacrifice first born children) and just watch the hockey they play. Their failure had nothing to do with not getting calls or similar melon head thinking.

It will be interesting what a very offensive minded coach brings back to the team. Bylsma started that way and they were a dominant offensive juggernaut. His philosophy shifted and the success went with it. So now that he's gone this could create some very fast paced wide open hockey.

[Polaris922]

The Pens are no more guilty of embellishment than your Flyers are. Despite James Neal's recently departed theatrics. Skilled players thrive where obstruction is called. We've ALL noticed the league's letting obstruction back into the game, and its impact. For years your Flyers have had more power play chances than my Pens, so does that mean they were diving more?? Or just started seeing some skilled players step up instead of the goons of yesteryear?

The Pens failures with Bylsma were in line combinations and changes, his reigning in the offense for worrying about defense, and his refusal to adjust to the game plans of their opponents. Those were the biggest issues I saw.

That's what we're excited to get away from. The stagnation of our skilled players.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Polaris922