Flyers shopping The Good Schenn

[murraycraven]

Bingo. The guy is still finding his way, scores at the same level as Vinnie (for half the money) and should get better as he figures out where the hell the Flyers actually want him to play. Lets get rid of that for a guy who hopefully becomes that in a few years.

 

I'm all for trading the Schenns for Edmontons first pick and either a shot at Mcdavid or another bluechip prospect. But why would Edmonton?

 

 

I get frustrated watching B Schenn as much as everyone but trading him now really does not make much sense IMO.   If you can grab a high #1 pick then you would obviously have to listen but I am not sure we will get that type of return even if you throw in the other Schenn/Coburn.   What is the rush to fix this defense now?  Help is on the way next year. 

 

If it is for offense I dont see how you are going to acquire a stud winger to play on the top line.  

 

Let the kid play...  otherwise, we are going right back to the JvR debacle.   Patience... give the kid a shot at wing and keep him there.   Stop the constant changes and see of the kid sinks or swims.  

[briere48]

I get frustrated watching B Schenn as much as everyone but trading him now really does not make much sense IMO.   If you can grab a high #1 pick then you would obviously have to listen but I am not sure we will get that type of return even if you throw in the other Schenn/Coburn.   What is the rush to fix this defense now?  Help is on the way next year. 

 

If it is for offense I dont see how you are going to acquire a stud winger to play on the top line.  

 

Let the kid play...  otherwise, we are going right back to the JvR debacle.   Patience... give the kid a shot at wing and keep him there.   Stop the constant changes and see of the kid sinks or swims.  

 

 

how much more time are you going to wait until b schenn turns into the next sidney crosby or patrick kane? 5 years? 10 years? theres a time where you have to admit b schenn is not a good player and move on. you cant let a player just stick on the roster and does nothing for team because you want him to turn into something that he's not.

[flyercanuck]

@briere48

 

Crosby or Kane? Really? I just want him to turn into brayden Schenn.

[aziz]

how much more time are you going to wait until b schenn turns into the next sidney crosby or patrick kane? 5 years? 10 years? theres a time where you have to admit b schenn is not a good player and move on. you cant let a player just stick on the roster and does nothing for team because you want him to turn into something that he's not.

 

i'm not a particular fan of his, but the above is --with respect-- just stupid.  b schenn has the 2nd most hits on the team among forwards, the 4th most shots on goal, has created more scoring chances than anyone else on the team (to the extent you trust the statistical backing on that one), is one of only 6 players without a negative +/-.  and has 3 points in 5 games.  he hit 20 goals last year, and will likely at least do that again.  

 

he may or may not be a good fit for the flyers' needs right now, but he certainly isn't doing nothing.  doing nothing is, well, as much as i keep defending him vis a vis hartnell, doing nothing is being rj umberger.

 

one of two things has to change with schenn.  he either needs to start meeting the expectations that were made when he was drafted 4th overall, and then refreshed when he was part of the mike richards package...all of which is to say, he needs to starting hitting that 35 goals/70 points level everyone had hoped he would.  or, we the fans could throttle back our expectations and realize that 20 goals/40 points is useful, even if it isn't award winning, and that almost certainly improve to some extent from there.  

 

earth shattering b schenn is not.  neither has he been useless.

 

interesting graphic:

 

[murraycraven]

how much more time are you going to wait until b schenn turns into the next sidney crosby or patrick kane? 5 years? 10 years? theres a time where you have to admit b schenn is not a good player and move on. you cant let a player just stick on the roster and does nothing for team because you want him to turn into something that he's not.

 

w/ all due respect - much like aziz - that comparison is just flat-out stupid...  and by nothing you mean 20 goals @ 23 years of age?

 

TF84 ®

[Mad Dog]

how much more time are you going to wait until b schenn turns into the next sidney crosby or patrick kane? 5 years? 10 years? theres a time where you have to admit b schenn is not a good player and move on. you cant let a player just stick on the roster and does nothing for team because you want him to turn into something that he's not.

 

This is not to be taken the wrong way, but please re-read what you just typed. 

 

NOBODY is turning into Crosby at this point for a simple reason - nobody is as good as Crosby... certainly not Schenn.  Why would you try to measure Schenn against Crosby and use the fact that he is not Crosby as a criteria for deciding to trade or not trade Schenn is really beyond me.

 

Now... if you debate that Schenn is not a good player.... OK that's subjective, but at least that's the starting point for a debate.  But let's settle this once for all: he IS no Crosby.  He never was and he never will be. Not in 1 year, not in 3 years, not ever.

[PhilsFanDrew]

how much more time are you going to wait until b schenn turns into the next sidney crosby or patrick kane? 5 years? 10 years? theres a time where you have to admit b schenn is not a good player and move on. you cant let a player just stick on the roster and does nothing for team because you want him to turn into something that he's not.

 

He doesn't need to put up prolific stats like Sidney Crosby or Patrick Kane to be an effective player.  It's silly to think he will ever be elite a la Crosby and Kane.  I think his ceiling is probably more like 30 goals, 65-70 pts.   If the Flyers can improve to contender status in the next couple years and he is putting up those numbers he is certainly a player worth having on the roster.  I can see if you are disappointed that his scouting report was not accurate and he is not yet lived up to his billing but that doesn't change the fact that he has been a productive player and has shown improvement every season with the Flyers. 

[radoran]

The 2006 #5 overall was Phil Kessel. At 22 Kessel had 19 goals and 37 points for the Bruins. Kessel, I am told, is listless, floating and pretty much a bum. He's now a perennial 30 goal scorer, as most shiftless, layabout, unmotivated floaters apparently are these days.

 

Maybe the Flyers should give their shiftless, layabout, unmotivated forward a chance to fail as a 30-goal scorer?

 

Or, you know, maybe not. There's probably some shiftless, unmotivated, floating defenseman they could get for him.

 

Of course, they got that already in the form of the #5 overall in 2008 - a guy known around here as "The Bad Schenn" - when they traded the last guy to score 20 as a 22-year-old for the Flyers.

 

Again - JVR (21/40), Williams (17/40), Crater (14/37), Richards (10/32),,, all had similar seasons as 22-year-olds to the shiftless, unmotivated, lacking desire Brayden Schenn. All of them have gone on to score 30 at least twice in their careers.

 

In fact, Schenn had a better statistical year at 22 (20/41) than all of them.

 

By way of comparison as well, Claude Giroux had 16 goals and 47 points as a 22-year-old. Voracek had 14/46. Simmonds 16/40. Yes, the shiftless layabout who lacks desire and floats all the time - or most of the time or, well, OK, some of the time - listen, he floats, dammit! - scored more goals at 22 than all of them.

 

Trade Schenn now, his value will never be higher.

 

[aziz]

@radoran

 

 

listen, he floats, dammit!

[Podein25]

There's probably some shiftless, unmotivated, floating defenseman they could get for him.

 

 

Could a floating D-man still be considered a D-man? Strictly speaking?

[radoran]

Could a floating D-man still be considered a D-man? Strictly speaking?

 

From what we've seen so far this season, the Flyers apparently think so...

[ruxpin]

@radoran

 

 

listen, he floats, dammit!

[canoli]

or is it schenn in general not transitioning from junior to the NHL as well as was hoped, and the position thing is kind of irrelevant?

 

amen.

now...about that graph... who's smoking what and how'd they come up with that? Mr. Invisible is the most "involved" of all the forwards? Well Sat night he was certainly in the top handful; he played real well. But that graph represents all the TOI this year right? No way is BSchenn the most involved.

[mojo1917]

i'm not a particular fan of his, but the above is --with respect-- just stupid. b schenn has the 2nd most hits on the team among forwards, the 4th most shots on goal, has created more scoring chances than anyone else on the team (to the extent you trust the statistical backing on that one), is one of only 6 players without a negative +/-. and has 3 points in 5 games. he hit 20 goals last year, and will likely at least do that again.

he may or may not be a good fit for the flyers' needs right now, but he certainly isn't doing nothing. doing nothing is, well, as much as i keep defending him vis a vis hartnell, doing nothing is being rj umberger.

one of two things has to change with schenn. he either needs to start meeting the expectations that were made when he was drafted 4th overall, and then refreshed when he was part of the mike richards package...all of which is to say, he needs to starting hitting that 35 goals/70 points level everyone had hoped he would. or, we the fans could throttle back our expectations and realize that 20 goals/40 points is useful, even if it isn't award winning, and that almost certainly improve to some extent from there.

earth shattering b schenn is not. neither has he been useless.

interesting graphic:

I nominate this for post of the month...

Awesome , laughed my ass off!

Doing nothing is RJ Umberger...wish I could write like that

[xganarchy]

Brayden Schenn for Evander Kane?

[flyerrod]

But... just how many 23-year-olds score 20 in this league? Especially unmotivated, floating, undedicated, lacking desire 23-year-olds?

 

My beef is this unmotivated player has had 3 going on 4 years to get motivated here. The Flyers even went so far as to trade for his brother in part I am sure to try and light a fire under him. It has not worked so far, so why should we expect it to change at this point..... Schenn for a top 5 pick would be automatic. I would even throw in the second Schenn for a 3rd round pick........

[doom88]

My beef is this unmotivated player has had 3 going on 4 years to get motivated here. The Flyers even went so far as to trade for his brother in part I am sure to try and light a fire under him. It has not worked so far, so why should we expect it to change at this point..... Schenn for a top 5 pick would be automatic. I would even throw in the second Schenn for a 3rd round pick........

They could try playing him in position...

[radoran]

My beef is this unmotivated player has had 3 going on 4 years to get motivated here. The Flyers even went so far as to trade for his brother in part I am sure to try and light a fire under him. It has not worked so far, so why should we expect it to change at this point..... Schenn for a top 5 pick would be automatic. I would even throw in the second Schenn for a 3rd round pick........

My beef is that the Flyers seem so inept at motivating people, who then go on to be successful elsewhere.

Again, Schenn just had a better statistical season than any player on the roster at the same age - including captain bestplayer - and we have people complaining he's not Sidney Crosby yet.

[murraycraven]

we have people complaining he's not Sidney Crosby yet.

 

well, that is just pure idiocy

 

 TF84®

[murraycraven]

If it makes everyone feel better Eklund is claiming they are NOT shopping Schenn (which means he will be traded today):

 

 

 

On Brayden Schenn....

Just thought I would clear up one thing that is making the rounds on the rumor mill today.

The Flyers are absolutely not shopping Brayden Schenn. They're going to be patient. That is the mantra and multiple sources have confirmed the same thing today.

There is no question that the rest of the NHL is waiting for the Flyers management to make a big move. There is precedent here of course as we have seen the Flyers react quickly to rough starts before...There are definitely teams are calling. Many teams, especially the teams in need of a center... of which there are many. GMs are looking for the Flyers to move Schenn or Couturier like the Flyers moved Richards and Carter in the past. That was a very different situation. There were far more pressing issues with Carter and Richards.

Could the Flyers make a trade? Absolutely they could, but for now, at least at this point, they aren't the ones initiating the concept. Like most teams they are open to listening, but it would take a lot to get either player from them. In all likelihood such a deal would happen in the off-season unless a team threw such a great package together that Hextall would be obliged to listen.

There will be rumors....as long as other teams sense the Flyers as struggling...but for now the Flyers are managing to compete while adjusting to life without Kimmo Timonen for the time being.
 

[radoran]

There were far more pressing issues with Carter and Richards.

 

What? You mean like rushing Richards into the captaincy and giving him a 12-year deal?

 

Or signing Crater to an 11-year, $58M deal seven months before dealing him?

 

Must have been a pretty impactful seven months, that.

 

These "reasons" start to add up to a disturbing trend for the organization.

 

To recap: the Flyers are apparently inept at developing players, inept at determining who to give long term deals to, inept at trading for players who want to play the game and inept at drafting players with a commitment to the game.

 

Go Flyers!

[brelic]

My beef is that the Flyees seem so inept at motivating people, who then go on to be successful elsewhere.

 

I always wonder how much of this is narrative and how much is truth.

 

This is from a 2012 article:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/dustin-penner-jeff-carter-mike-richards-edit-nhl-160040865.html

 

Why are the Los Angeles Kings in the 2012 Stanley Cup Final?

 

Because the two drunk, locker room cancers helped set up a lazy fat-ass for the game-winning goal.

 

At least that's how it would have been framed about eight months ago, when the narratives about Mike Richards, Jeff Carter and Dustin Penner had defined them as players. The first two were banished from the Philadelphia Flyers, ostensibly for cap relief in the pursuit of a No. 1 goaltender (or, failing that, Ilya Bryzgalov) but mostly for a culture change in the dressing room.

 

Carter and Richards were traded last June on the same day, dramatically remaking a Flyers team that was a year removed from the Stanley Cup Final.

 

Carter was exiled to the Columbus Blue Jackets for Jakub Voracek, a third and the first that became Sean Couturier. His initial disdain for the trade was influenced by the Flyers going against their word that his 11-year contract would ensure he'd remain in Philadelphia. But his sullen attitude reportedly carried over into the season with the Jackets, exacerbated by the team's lack of success.

 

On Feb. 23, he was traded for defenseman Jack Johnson and a first-round choice, reuniting him with Mike Richards on the Kings.

 

The move was cynically met. Here were two players who were removed from the Flyers' dressing room, now reunited on the Kings. The "Dry Island" allegations that flew after their trades — that the duo refused to make a sobriety pledge, encouraged by team management — followed them. Wrote Flyers beat writer Wayne Fish: "How will that work, with the possibility of afterhours activity in Los Angeles more tempting than Philadelphia?"

 

Richards, meanwhile, was catching heat for a lack of offensive production (44 points in 74 games, his lowest since 2006-07) and still had questions about his leadership being asked after Chris Pronger usurped him in Philadelphia. What difference was he making on a Kings team that couldn't score and was clawing for a playoff seed?

 

Maybe the concerns about Carter, Richards and their behavior will manifest in later years, considering both are signed through 2020 (Carter's deal is until 2022). But GM Dean Lombardi saw Carter as an essential fix for his team's offense in a 16-game sprint to the playoffs — one in which Carter had six goals.

 

In the playoffs, Carter now has 9 points in 14 games, acting as an offensive catalyst. Richards is winning faceoffs and has scored 11 points in 14 games, exhibiting the gamesmanship and direction that make him a pain in the backside to play against.

 

Carter and Richards are leaders on this Kings team, something Geoffrey Detweiler thinks the media narrative got wrong during their time in Philly:

None of that is to suggest the Flyers should have kept going with Carter and Richards - though I think they should have. No, that is just there to show that the Flyers were in good hands with Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. The team had success with them at the helm, and if Chris Pronger were healthy against Boston, things may have been different. Instead, the Flyers will hope they are able to fill the leadership void created by the Richards and Carter trades. Because there is absolutely a void, and that's not even discussing their on-ice impact.

 

Now, Carter and Richards are playing for the Stanley Cup, while the Flyers are enjoying their time on vacation. Perhaps on an island somewhere

 

.

 

Here's one on Carter from 2014:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2074844-jeff-carter-gives-kings-the-edge-over-blackhawks-once-again-in-game-3-win

 

 

Mike Milbury asked a question to Keith Jones after the second period Saturday night that many familiar with the career of Jeff Carter probably would admit to have asked at least once.

 

"Did you ever think you’d see Jeff Carter become the player he is? He was sort of a big, lazy guy in Philadelphia," Milbury said on NBC.

 

Here’s the thing: I’m not sure he’s changed it all that much. People forget that he was a very good player for the Flyers and helped take his team to the Stanley Cup Final in 2010 against the Blackhawks. From 2009-11, he posted goal-scoring seasons of 46, 33 and 36 for Philly. Does that sound big and lazy to you?

 

But it wasn't all a bad rap on Carter. The perception that he didn't care was exacerbated in Columbus, where, even though it was understandably a tough transition for him, he didn't seem to put out 100 percent.

 

 

JVR:

http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=15846&user_id=152944

 

Van Riemsdyk's lazy neutral zone play cost the Leafs the first goal against, which was also thanks in large part to a terrible, ill-timed line change by van Riemsdyk and his line mates Kessel and Kadri. Looming at 6 foot 3 and 200 pounds, JVR should be a force to be reckoned with at all parts of the ice. Instead the big winger is seen standing at the blue line while the rest of his outmanned defense runs around playing two on three and sometimes two on four hockey as they are pinned down in their own end. 

 

 

I have watched JVR for a number of years. He has size but doesnt use it often. He has skill but is lazy and he has soft hands but also a soft body to go along with. I really hope the best for him and Leafs fans that he will get a fresh star

 

 

 

Bottom line is that when they are Flyers, we put them under a microscope because we see them night in and night out, and read about them in the dailies, and talk about them on forums. If you scrutinize something that much, it's easy to lose perspective.

[murraycraven]

What? You mean like rushing Richards into the captaincy and giving him a 12-year deal?

Or signing Crater to an 11-year, $58M deal seven months before dealing him?

Must have been a pretty impactful seven months, that.

These "reasons" start to add up to a disturbing trend for the organization.

To recap: the Flyers are apparently inept at developing players, inept at determining who to give long term deals to, inept at trading for players who want to play the game and inept at drafting players with a commitment to the game.

Go Flyers!

Rad... That entire quote was from Eklund. I am a n full agreement with you regarding BS

[radoran]

Bottom line is that when they are Flyers, we put them under a microscope because we see them night in and night out, and read about them in the dailies, and talk about them on forums. If you scrutinize something that much, it's easy to lose perspective.

 

Well, the problem is that the obvious part - that they decided to blow up the goaltender in pursuit of a "#1" goalie (or, failing that Ilya Bryzgalov) - is cast aside in favor of the narrative that the players were lazy, drunken, unmotivated slobs that the team had decided to commit the next 10 years to just before they didn't.

 

The ice is always smoother...

 

And, of course, we must have complete faith in the people who continually make the bad decisions.

 

There is no question that there can be problems with player motivation (a good argument against giving 12, 10, 6, 8 year deals maybe???) but every player who gets traded isn't by definition a malcontent floater with a drinking problem who's wife was banged by the captain.

 

 

Rad... That entire quote was from Eklund. I am a n full agreement with you regarding BS

 

Oh, I know murray

[mojo1917]

without going too far into the wayback machine.  Richards wasn't a good captain because he hated talking to the press...and was sullen or someshit.

Carter wasn't good enough because he didn't hit.  (I think ) I actually never got the Carter hate other than Philly fans need to see the grimace of effort and that is not Jeff Carter's game. he back checked used his reach was always a good plus minus , was good on face offs..and skated as fast as anyone...but "high and wide"... this fan base often acts like a bunch of rabid civet cats.

 

So while i would like to see B Schenn be a harder on the puck ( uh , heh heh heh ) and in general more engaged in the game more consistently... people should get up off the kid because as we noted, 20 goals as a 22 year old in his first full season isn't chopped liver. His goals represent true scoring depth because he was rarely on the ice with Giroux and many of our other 20 goal scorers benefited from 28's game and vision.

 

Brayden Schenn's game is what growth and developing players looks like...people in our fanbase( sometimes myself included ) don't have the stomach for it.

 

If we're talking trade...VLC for all time first trade center in the world.